• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How Well Do the Various Religions Teach Spiritual Skills?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Please bear with me, the question I would like to ask might need a little explanation....

Some years ago, I came across an interesting statistic. It appears that about 15% of high school students are "natural learners". These students will do well even in poor schools. That is, schools in which the teachers are largely incompetent or ineffective. By coincidence, another 15% percent of students appear to be largely incapable of much learning, and will do poorly even in schools in which the teachers are quite competent and usually effective. The remaining 70% of high school students constitute a group of people who will not learn much on their own, but who will learn well if taught by competent teachers.

Now having said that, let's quickly jump to another subject: If you think of a person's spirituality as the manner and degree to which they cope, deal with, or perhaps transcend their psychological self*, then one of the first things you might notice is that such a view implies everyone has a spirituality of one sort or another. There is no such thing as a non-spiritual person, in that view. Instead, there are just people with varying ways and degrees to which they deal, etc with their psychological selves.

What you might also notice is that some people seem to be rather naturally gifted at dealing with their psychologically selves. They are perhaps analogous to our "natural learners". Carrying the analogy even further, let's suppose the folks among us who are naturally adept at dealing with their psychological selves make up about 15% of the population, and that the remaining population is divided between people (70%) who can learn to deal well with their psychological selves if given competent instruction, and people (15%) who are like me, more or less hopeless when it comes to dealing well with their psychological selves.

The question might then be put, "How effective are the various major and minor religions at teaching people to deal well with their psychological selves?"

I myself believe there are most likely significant differences between the world's religions when it comes to such things.

Of course, that's speculation on my part. It would seem obvious that there are far too many factors involved for one to give a firm and reliable answer to the question. But perhaps one can make an at least somewhat informed guess. If so, then these are my guesses:

The Great Eastern traditions -- Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism -- seem to me to probably be somewhat more effective teachers than the Great Western traditions -- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. That doesn't mean I think the latter are grossly ineffective, but only that they might be relatively ineffective in comparison to the Great Eastern religions.



*The psychological self --- also known as the "ego", the "I", "normal waking consciousness", or just plain, "the self". I use the qualifier "psychological" to distinguish it from the physical self, or body. The psychological self plays a huge role in human behavior, of course, and that role is often enough problematic. For instance, it seems common enough for people to defend their psychological selves just as -- or even more so -- they would defend their body. Hence if I see myself as a stupid person, and you come along to contradict that, I might end up arguing with you in order to defend my view of myself as a stupid person -- or even perhaps get upset, angry, or possibly violent in opposing your attempt to change my view of myself. That is, my psychological self. Spirituality, as I define it, is the manner and degree to which someone copes with or perhaps even transcends their psychological self.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Christianity pre-dates Freud. Spirituality was basically the opposite of materialistic and mundane matters. From basic spiritual concepts to higher spiritual concepts. Not a battle against oneself but understanding what is and why. Christianity seems quite strong, since most great movies have subtle Christian spiritualism to bind it together.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Christianity pre-dates Freud. Spirituality was basically the opposite of materialistic and mundane matters. From basic spiritual concepts to higher spiritual concepts. Not a battle against oneself but understanding what is and why. Christianity seems quite strong, since most great movies have subtle Christian spiritualism to bind it together.

If you've noticed, almost all the words in the English language have more than one meaning. I am well aware of the definition of "spirituality" that you are using here. Unfortunately, that definition is irrelevant in this thread because it's not being used here. I have made very clear what the word "spirituality" means in this thread. If you want to talk about your preferred definition of the word, you are quite free to start your own thread.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
It depends if the religions themselves want to dissolve one's psychological self or not, and if their practitioners are willing to or not.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If you've noticed, almost all the words in the English language have more than one meaning. I am well aware of the definition of "spirituality" that you are using here. Unfortunately, that definition is irrelevant in this thread because it's not being used here. I have made very clear what the word "spirituality" means in this thread. If you want to talk about your preferred definition of the word, you are quite free to start your own thread.
How do you compare the spirituality of religions that define spirituality differently? You could simplify your question and ask how many religions define spirituality as you do. Are there any? Or is science and psychology the only ones? Science is a new religion.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It depends if the religions themselves want to dissolve one's psychological self or not, and if their practitioners are willing to or not.

Is dissolution of the psychological self the only thing a religion can teach about how to deal with one? Aren't there many other spiritual skills a religion might teach?
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Is dissolution of the psychological self the only thing a religion can teach about how to deal with one? Aren't there many other spiritual skills a religion might teach?
Nope, there are many others! Such as compassion for beings, the equality of all living things, and the appreciation of intangible things over the tangible :D
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
Please bear with me, the question I would like to ask might need a little explanation....

Some years ago, I came across an interesting statistic. It appears that about 15% of high school students are "natural learners". These students will do well even in poor schools. That is, schools in which the teachers are largely incompetent or ineffective. By coincidence, another 15% percent of students appear to be largely incapable of much learning, and will do poorly even in schools in which the teachers are quite competent and usually effective. The remaining 70% of high school students constitute a group of people who will not learn much on their own, but who will learn well if taught by competent teachers.

Now having said that, let's quickly jump to another subject: If you think of a person's spirituality as the manner and degree to which they cope, deal with, or perhaps transcend their psychological self*, then one of the first things you might notice is that such a view implies everyone has a spirituality of one sort or another. There is no such thing as a non-spiritual person, in that view. Instead, there are just people with varying ways and degrees to which they deal, etc with their psychological selves.

What you might also notice is that some people seem to be rather naturally gifted at dealing with their psychologically selves. They are perhaps analogous to our "natural learners". Carrying the analogy even further, let's suppose the folks among us who are naturally adept at dealing with their psychological selves make up about 15% of the population, and that the remaining population is divided between people (70%) who can learn to deal well with their psychological selves if given competent instruction, and people (15%) who are like me, more or less hopeless when it comes to dealing well with their psychological selves.

The question might then be put, "How effective are the various major and minor religions at teaching people to deal well with their psychological selves?"

I myself believe there are most likely significant differences between the world's religions when it comes to such things.

Of course, that's speculation on my part. It would seem obvious that there are far too many factors involved for one to give a firm and reliable answer to the question. But perhaps one can make an at least somewhat informed guess. If so, then these are my guesses:

The Great Eastern traditions -- Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism -- seem to me to probably be somewhat more effective teachers than the Great Western traditions -- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. That doesn't mean I think the latter are grossly ineffective, but only that they might be relatively ineffective in comparison to the Great Eastern religions.



*The psychological self --- also known as the "ego", the "I", "normal waking consciousness", or just plain, "the self". I use the qualifier "psychological" to distinguish it from the physical self, or body. The psychological self plays a huge role in human behavior, of course, and that role is often enough problematic. For instance, it seems common enough for people to defend their psychological selves just as -- or even more so -- they would defend their body. Hence if I see myself as a stupid person, and you come along to contradict that, I might end up arguing with you in order to defend my view of myself as a stupid person -- or even perhaps get upset, angry, or possibly violent in opposing your attempt to change my view of myself. That is, my psychological self. Spirituality, as I define it, is the manner and degree to which someone copes with or perhaps even transcends their psychological self.
It depends if the religions themselves want to dissolve one's psychological self or not, and if their practitioners are willing to or not.
I think it's not just different religions but individual churches/synagogue/mosque/etc.

There were two different Catholic churches in my town and they both approached this differently.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I'm not sure if I understand the OP all that clearly, SunnyStone, but I'd argue that, based on my own experience, religion(s) are not particularly helpful in apprehending a conscious understanding of the larger identity. Most will simply saddle the individual with an unrealistic view of god, which flies in the face of the experience of Oneness (dissolution of the subject/object divide). At best, religion(s) simply provide us with an almost comic book version of the larger identity in the form of this external god.

The huge difference here can be found in Buddhism and some flavors of Hinduism, that leave ideas about god behind or do not take a strong stance on god concepts whatsoever. These philosophies can be helpful to the aspirant seeking inner growth though they too have their own blinders and handicaps.

In closing, without actual direct experience of inner reality, the individual is not likely to make much progress beyond the extents of critical thinking which should, in theory, place them directly in the agnostic camp, if not squarely in the atheistic realm.


If this wasn't what you were looking for, Phil, just smack me and I'll shut up and go sit in the corner. :cool:
 
Last edited:

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Please bear with me, the question I would like to ask might need a little explanation....

Some years ago, I came across an interesting statistic. It appears that about 15% of high school students are "natural learners". These students will do well even in poor schools. That is, schools in which the teachers are largely incompetent or ineffective. By coincidence, another 15% percent of students appear to be largely incapable of much learning, and will do poorly even in schools in which the teachers are quite competent and usually effective. The remaining 70% of high school students constitute a group of people who will not learn much on their own, but who will learn well if taught by competent teachers.

Now having said that, let's quickly jump to another subject: If you think of a person's spirituality as the manner and degree to which they cope, deal with, or perhaps transcend their psychological self*, then one of the first things you might notice is that such a view implies everyone has a spirituality of one sort or another. There is no such thing as a non-spiritual person, in that view. Instead, there are just people with varying ways and degrees to which they deal, etc with their psychological selves.

What you might also notice is that some people seem to be rather naturally gifted at dealing with their psychologically selves. They are perhaps analogous to our "natural learners". Carrying the analogy even further, let's suppose the folks among us who are naturally adept at dealing with their psychological selves make up about 15% of the population, and that the remaining population is divided between people (70%) who can learn to deal well with their psychological selves if given competent instruction, and people (15%) who are like me, more or less hopeless when it comes to dealing well with their psychological selves.

The question might then be put, "How effective are the various major and minor religions at teaching people to deal well with their psychological selves?"

I myself believe there are most likely significant differences between the world's religions when it comes to such things.

Of course, that's speculation on my part. It would seem obvious that there are far too many factors involved for one to give a firm and reliable answer to the question. But perhaps one can make an at least somewhat informed guess. If so, then these are my guesses:

The Great Eastern traditions -- Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism -- seem to me to probably be somewhat more effective teachers than the Great Western traditions -- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. That doesn't mean I think the latter are grossly ineffective, but only that they might be relatively ineffective in comparison to the Great Eastern religions.



*The psychological self --- also known as the "ego", the "I", "normal waking consciousness", or just plain, "the self". I use the qualifier "psychological" to distinguish it from the physical self, or body. The psychological self plays a huge role in human behavior, of course, and that role is often enough problematic. For instance, it seems common enough for people to defend their psychological selves just as -- or even more so -- they would defend their body. Hence if I see myself as a stupid person, and you come along to contradict that, I might end up arguing with you in order to defend my view of myself as a stupid person -- or even perhaps get upset, angry, or possibly violent in opposing your attempt to change my view of myself. That is, my psychological self. Spirituality, as I define it, is the manner and degree to which someone copes with or perhaps even transcends their psychological self.


Once again, @Sunstone, you have far exceeded my expectations of you. Excellent question. Short answer, it has been my experience to find absolutely no modern religion in the world today that even understands spirituality let alone teach it. Spirituality is, by it's very nature, an internal concept. Religions, by their very nature, have to be external entities. This means they have to have building, books, histories, rules, ceremonies, etc., to justify and validate their existences. Spirituality needs only being to exist. As I have said many times, a person has to find their own truth, and this is definitely one of the these areas. One caveat I think must be added to your observation is that the 15% of us that are "natural learners" should be aware that the other 85% do not process the same ability. Until I realized this I experienced a great deal of head shaking and glazed-eyed staring. Merry Christmas.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
One caveat I think must be added to your observation is that the 15% of us that are "natural learners" should be aware that the other 85% do not process the same ability. Until I realized this I experienced a great deal of head shaking and glazed-eyed staring. Merry Christmas.
Oh, boy, do I relate to that bedraggled puppy. Fortunately I understood fairly quickly that people I talked to didn't have the foggiest idea what I was going through - and I couldn't properly express it - during that phase. And a heartfelt, Merry Christmas, to you too, @BSM1
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Oh, boy, do I relate to that bedraggled puppy. Fortunately I understood fairly quickly that people I talked to didn't have the foggiest idea what I was going though - and I couldn't properly express it - during that phase. And a heartfelt, Merry Christmas, to you too, @BSM1

Ditto, Bro.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I kind of have the feeling like you described spirituality in Eastern terms and then continue to explain how Eastern religions deal with Eastern forms of spirituality better than Western religions.

Incidentally, there's a significant body of work on perfection of the psychological self in Judaism. Its part of daily study in most Orthodox learning institutions.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Christianity pre-dates Freud. Spirituality was basically the opposite of materialistic and mundane matters. From basic spiritual concepts to higher spiritual concepts. Not a battle against oneself but understanding what is and why. Christianity seems quite strong, since most great movies have subtle Christian spiritualism to bind it together.
That isn't even what he asked. How does Christianity help people psychologically?
 
The Great Eastern traditions -- Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism -- seem to me to probably be somewhat more effective teachers than the Great Western traditions -- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. That doesn't mean I think the latter are grossly ineffective, but only that they might be relatively ineffective in comparison to the Great Eastern religions.

I'm not sure how easy it is to judge effectiveness across broad religious traditions given the greatly different methods they utilise to achieve transcendence from the physical self (or otherwise).

A Salafi Muslim (of the apolitical kind) would see submission to God's will as being transcendence of the ego/self, embracing the freedom from choice and self-interest that occurs from following a strictly regimented existence at the expense of worldy urges.

The message of early Christianity seems very much to be about achieving an inner freedom from a world which cannot be changed. Blessed are the meek, turn the other cheek, love thy enemy, renounce worldly goods, etc. One of the reasons why Christianity gained traction was that early adherents cared for the sick during an outbreak of plague, a clear example of transcending the sense of self.

On the other hand if you look at prosperity theology, then that is a Divine sanctioned feeding of the ego that is the opposite of self-denial. Or similarly forms of medieval Islam focused on conquest, wealth and political power as a reward for faith.

It would seem to me that certain forms of the Abrahamic religions at least could be pretty effective at achieving a certain kind of spirituality.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about 'Eastern' traditions so can't really compare them very well, why do you consider them to be superior in teaching freedom from the self?
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
What are the similarities and differences between them, if you don't mind my asking?
Despite the fact I brought it up that question will be difficult to answer. It was over a decade ago. I was hoping to expand on terese posy. Also to often we talk about religions as a cohesive thing.and forget that its really a.collection of communities.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
What does it mean to perfect the psychological self?
The ultimate goal is to have complete control of one's internal self (and eventually even one's external self). I recall reading in a Jewish book on character improvement, that one of the sign posts is being equally internally unresponsive when praised or degraded. In our framework, that means that all of the strengths and desires of the lower self, turn into strengths and desires found by the higher self.

There was a famous (among Jews anyway) network of Jewish yeshivahs in pre-War Europe where the students would purposely do embarrassing things in order to break their egos.

In Judaism, perfection of ones character is integral to attaining attachment to the Divine and its not uncommon for a treatise on the subject to intertwine religious and character development together.
 
Top