How you feel finding errors in your scripture?

[Skwim]

The Bible did not err, it was the versions that were at fault.

And exactly what Bible is this? The one you consider to be the sine qua non of Bibles? Theee Bible that passeth all others in its excellency, verve, and unqualified innerrancy? That by which all others pale in comparison. And how do ye knoweth this to be so?

Thing is, it doesn't matter, copyist error or whatever. Fact is:

The.. Bibles.. out.. there.. today.. are.. communicating.. error.. after.. error.. to.. their.. readers.

​

And after all, isn't that what you were asking about?

"It would be helpful if anyone could point out the book, chapter, verse of an alleged error."​

Sure it was. And I had the pleasure to present you with five of them. Count 'em, 5, V, ק , εʹ. Tack så mycket.


.

 

[MJFlores]

And exactly what Bible is this? The one you consider to be the sine qua non of Bibles? Theee Bible that passeth all others in its excellency, verve, and unqualified innerrancy? That by which all others pale in comparison. And how do ye knoweth this to be so?

Thing is, it doesn't matter, copyist error or whatever. Fact is:

The.. Bibles.. out.. there.. today.. are.. communicating.. error.. after.. error.. to.. their.. readers.

​

And after all, isn't that what you were asking about?

"It would be helpful if anyone could point out the book, chapter, verse of an alleged error."​

Sure it was. And I had the pleasure to present you with five of them. Count 'em, 5, V, ק , εʹ.


.

There is a lot of difference between a Bible error and a Version error.

I would liken it between an Anthem and the one who sang it.

I hope you did not fix the blame on the anthem...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

consider any one of the parables of the gospels

and the next guy will examine the same item

and the two of you might not agree on that detail

{ yawn }

 

[Thief]

{ yawn }

there.....see?

we don't agree

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How you feel finding errors in your scripture? Is it even possible? Okay errors in scripture of others, but not in mine!

I remember when I came across errors in my favorite scripture I was far from happy. Mind tried all kinds of tricks to get around these errors.

How you feel/deal with errors you find, or when others point them out?

Easy to admit to others there is a flaw in your scripture. Or does it take some weeks before you dare speak on it.

I voted using the bible; but for the context of this thread, Ill use the Dharma since thats personal.

Im so used to spiritual books need to be perfect. So, at first, I read the Dharma with that view. I realized The Buddha said a lot of "imperfect" things. However, his view was-hey, dont go off what I say, go off what you experience-type of thing. Whether its written by god or transcribed from disciples, I feel the same advice is appropriate. Use scripture as commentary and experience as scripture.

I value The suttas/Dharma and it has its place. That should be the same with biblical scripture. So, finding flaws should not be an issue on sacred text authenticity. Its the message and practice thats authentic. The Dharma got away with it because we know we are reading things from humans. Saying its from god has a bigger problem. It really lowers the gods nature when he can only speak through people to understand him. Thats a huge flaw/contradiction.

As for people accepting it, I notice they relook it,find different translations, look at their correspondences, rather than addressing the issue from their own experiences.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There are no errors in the NT or the Tanakh if one remembers the purpose of the scriptures.

No flaws in the message of scripture or the text itself?

(Id say no flaws in the message; but, the message is not the physical scriptures)

 

[metis]

Buddha refused because he had a completely different angle. 'Does it help in removing your sorrows?'

Actually we don't know that since he never explained it, but your response above is quite possibly spot-on since it was his later followers who speculated that this may well have been his reasoning.

 

[metis]

No flaws in the message of scripture or the text itself?

(Id say no flaws in the message; but, the message is not the physical scriptures)

Let me repeat that if we try and look at scriptures as being objective, we're likely making a big mistake. Nor should we look at the authors as being omniscient, imo, especially since in the Jewish tradition differing perspectives and commentaries are quite "kosher". For one example, James and Paul don't appear to be on the same page at times.

 

[stvdv]

Im so used to spiritual books need to be perfect. So, at first, I read the Dharma with that view. I realized The Buddha said a lot of "imperfect" things. However, his view was-hey, dont go off what I say, go off what you experience-type of thing. Whether its written by god or transcribed from disciples, I feel the same advice is appropriate. Use scripture as commentary and experience as scripture.

I recognize this. I started out checking the scripture, needing it to be "error free". So Bible and Quran were finished quickly. Then when getting more in tune with "my inner scripture" I was okay with errors in scripture, because I always run it by my own conscience/feeling anyway. In the beginning I read a lot, finally condensed it to a few lines. Only when I experience myself then I know it is true for myself.

In my experience "need for error free scripture" had to do with my own insecurity, not being able to listen "to the scripture within".

 

[Skwim]

There is a lot of difference between a Bible error and a Version error.

I would liken it between an Anthem and the one who sang it.

I hope you did not fix the blame on the anthem...

And it won't escape any of us that you refused to answer my questions, but went off on another tangent.
But that's what we've come to expect from equivocating Christians here: A LOT of blather, and no substance.



Have a good day.
( We have your number, )

.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Actually we don't know that since he never explained it, but your response above is quite possibly spot-on since it was his later followers who speculated that this may well have been his reasoning.

Sure, I know Buddha's mind. He is my guru.

 

[Windwalker]

I do not believe Truth from God comes through an inner voice but rather Only through God’s Messengers, but you already know that.

Which of course is something I still find fascinating that people believe, but I do understand its importance to keep the flock together from chasing off any old "prophet". Those who are spiritually vulnerable need to be told to not listen to anyone but the authorities in their religion. It makes sense at that level.

But not beyond that. Not to those who aren't spiritually vulnerable and who can discern the "Master's Voice" and not some fraud. So I see it's value for many, but beyond that it doesn't ring true. Very much the contrary, actually.

I do not believe anyone's beliefs make anything a reality. Reality is whatever it is.

That's actually not true. What we believe the world is, becomes the world we imagine it to be. You are right that Reality is whatever it is, but aside from the rare mystic who has moved beyond the veil of the illusion of the mind who sees Reality as it is, everyone else on the planet lives inside a constructed worlds inside our heads. We are touching Reality, but we see it as something else. We see it, and experience it, as a projection of our own imaginations, individually and collectively.

It is literally like we are dreaming we are seeing reality, but then we wake up and realize it was just an illusion. We were seeing the tree, but it wasn't the tree itself, but our projection of what we imagine a tree is. There was an object there we called a tree, but what that tree is, was not what we saw. We saw a tree. We didn't see TREE. We did not see the Divine. We saw our minds projected on the Divine.

With all due respect, I do not believe that people imagine they are separated from God.

I can tell you from experience, yes they do. Anyone who has ever had any sort of Awakening experience, the one thing they all say is things to the effect of, "It was never anywhere else but right here the whole time". "I have never been separate from God, even though I never saw Him there the whole time," etc.

Speaking from my own experiences, yes, "It only appears God isn't there because we take our eyes away into the worlds inside our heads". The second you step out of that illusion, you see it was never anywhere but fully here. It could be nowhere else. It was only you who step away in your own mind. It wasn't God. It was you. It always was just you. I always is just you.

They are separated from God unless they are connected to God. One cannot be connected to God unless one has knowledge of God.

Everyone has that Knowledge of God already. They just don't see what they already have and are. Because they live in a world of their own imaginations of what Reality is. The God they see is a God of their imaginations. Not God.

Being connected to God is a fact of existence. That we are aware or not of that is the only question.

One cannot obtain knowledge of God except through the Messenger of God. There is no inner source of knowledge one can tap into because God is not living inside of anyone.

Both statements are false.

That is not to say that atheists are unworthy, unlovable, or unloved by God, but that Love is not available to them until they make the connection to God, like plugging in a lamp.

Using your analogy, it's not a matter of plugging the lamp in. The lamp is already plugged in because you are alive. The light bulb doesn't go on however, if you don't pull down on the switch cord. The electricity was there the whole time, you just didn't open up the floodgates and let it flow. You blocked it. We all block it. It's not God holding anything back. It's us.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovestMe not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

We can live a godly life, but no human can live as God would live. God is exalted and sanctified from the whole creation. God is single and alone.

God is everything that is. God cannot be "alone". But yes, God is singular. There is and can be nothing outside God. Including you.

One can be connected to God in heart through prayer and meditation, but one cannot be united with God. God is not accessible directly to humans.

So, God is not infinite? Do you believe God is a finite creature? You must to imagine you can be outside God, and God outside you. Only finite creatures have an "outside" them.

As I said, it's our imagination that separates us - that creates the reality of the experience you think is reality, that you are separate from God. I don't imagine that myself, and I see God everywhere, including myself. There is no separation possible. We only imagine it is so.

The One True God is exalted beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived by anyone. Becoming a Partner with God would be to rival His glory and bring God down to a human level.

No one claiming Oneness with God is saying their human ego rivals God. They are saying their human ego is an illusion of the mind. They are not separate from God, nor God from them. Think of it like this. We are God as who I am as a person. We all are. But in order to see that, to Realize that, you have to see that the ego is nothing. So there can be no "partner with God". Absolutely correct. You aren't the ego-self anymore. You do not remain anymore as this separate ego-self. You don't exist. Only God does.

You can believe that if you wish. I believe that only the Messengers of God have direct access to God’s Truth.

That's too bad. It's wonderful to just hear and see God speaking everywhere all the time, rather than isolated on the pages of some book you have to sit down and read words on. It's glorious to see it written on every cloud, every face, every animal, every plant, everything thing that exists in every second of all ages.

If we get that Truth from them we can reflect it and speak that Truth; we are in effect“manifestation” of God because we reflect God’s Light that we receive through the Messenger.

God doesn't reflect off objects. God radiates from within them. If we pull down on the chain on the lamp switch and not block the electricity because of the stubbornness of our egos.

I have no resentment whatsoever. As I tell many of my atheist friends, I have absolutely no interest, in ever seeing God or hearing from God directly. I know I can never gain near access to God because God has barred access to His holy court.

And all of these, are ideas of your mind that you choose to place before you to separate yourself from the Knowledge of God. We all do that, until we no longer chose to do that anymore.

 

[MJFlores]

You did well "trying to prove Skwim wrong", but you did bad "admitting Bible errors"
[Let thy Yes be Yes, and thy No be No]. You forgot to vote for the first one "I get upset and will not easy admit a flaw"


You are too nice here
He should feel bad, very bad. Hell bound bad. For concealing the truth "Bible contains errors"
[Considering the fact the Christians easily send non-Christians to hell for not following Truth/Jesus/Bible]

Thank you very much.

 

[Trailblazer]

“I do not believe Truth from God comes through an inner voice but rather Only through God’s Messengers, but you already know that.”
Which of course is something I still find fascinating that people believe, but I do understand its importance to keep the flock together from chasing off any old "prophet". Those who are spiritually vulnerable need to be told to not listen to anyone but the authorities in their religion. It makes sense at that level.

But not beyond that. Not to those who aren't spiritually vulnerable and who can discern the "Master's Voice" and not some fraud. So I see it's value for many, but beyond that it doesn't ring true. Very much the contrary, actually.

Are you saying that the Great Prophets are frauds and that people who believe in them are spiritually vulnerable because they believe in them? Are you saying that you can hear from God directly without them as intermediaries and the rest of us are just spiritually compromised because we cannot do so? What about the messages they bring that are for the progress of all humanity? Do we not need those messages?

“One cannot obtain knowledge of God except through the Messenger of God. There is no inner source of knowledge one can tap into because God is not living inside of anyone.”

Both statements are false.

My beliefs are as follows.

We can obtain knowledge of God through God’s Creation but nobody can obtain direct knowledge about God, except through a Messenger of God.

God lives inside of nobody, not even inside the Messengers of God. God has always been and will forever remain separate from His Creation, exalted beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived. All we can know are God’s Attributes through what the Messenger reveals and reflects, but God is exalted beyond all of His attributes.

Using your analogy, it's not a matter of plugging the lamp in. The lamp is already plugged in because you are alive. The light bulb doesn't go on however, if you don't pull down on the switch cord. The electricity was there the whole time, you just didn't open up the floodgates and let it flow. You blocked it. We all block it. It's not God holding anything back. It's us.

I can agree that God’s Love is there all the time and any Baha’i would agree with that.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

God is everything that is. God cannot be "alone".

But yes, God is singular. There is and can be nothing outside God. Including you.

If God is singular God is one entity. There is no reason that God cannot be alone if God so chooses. God is omnipotent.

Of course I am outside of God because the alternative would be that I am inside of God, which makes absolutely no sense at all, at least not to me.

To say that God cannot be alone and that there is and can be nothing outside God is to say that we are all part of God (inside of God). That is akin to Pantheism which is the opposite of monotheism. The Baha’i Faith is a monotheistic religion.

So, God is not infinite? Do you believe God is a finite creature? You must to imagine you can be outside God, and God outside you. Only finite creatures have an "outside" them.

Infinite: limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate. https://www.google.com/search

God being infinite does not mean that God is living inside of humans, not by any definition of the word.

I believe that that humans have the capacity to reflect the attributes and names of God, so we have the signs of God within us, but that is different from saying that we have God within us, that we are one with God or identical with God.

“Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God, inasmuch as within every atom are enshrined the signs that bear eloquent testimony to the revelation of that Most Great Light. Methinks, but for the potency of that revelation, no being could ever exist. How resplendent the luminaries of knowledge that shine in an atom, and how vast the oceans of wisdom that surge within a drop! To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed. All these names and attributes are applicable to him. Even as He hath said: “Man is My mystery, and I am his mystery.” Manifold are the verses that have been repeatedly revealed in all the Heavenly Books and the Holy Scriptures, expressive of this most subtle and lofty theme. Even as He hath revealed: “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves.” Again He saith: “And also in your own selves: will ye not, then, behold the signs of God?” And yet again He revealeth: “And be ye not like those who forget God, and whom He hath therefore caused to forget their own selves.” In this connection, He Who is the eternal King—may the souls of all that dwell within the mystic Tabernacle be a sacrifice unto Him—hath spoken: “He hath known God who hath known himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 177-178

We are an expression of God’s glory, a revelation of the attributes and names of God, so in that sense God is within us, but God cannot be within anyone but God, since it is separate from Creation, one and alone, beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived. So obviously it cannot be contained within a human.

“…From that which hath been said it becometh evident that all things, in their inmost reality, testify to the revelation of the names and attributes of God within them. Each according to its capacity, indicateth, and is expressive of, the knowledge of God. So potent and universal is this revelation, that it hath encompassed all things visible and invisible. Thus hath He revealed: “Hath aught else save Thee a power of revelation which is not possessed by Thee, that it could have manifested Thee? Blind is the eye which doth not perceive Thee.” Likewise hath the eternal King spoken: “No thing have I perceived, except that I perceived God within it, God before it, or God after it.” Also in the tradition of Kumayl it is written: “Behold, a light hath shone forth out of the morn of eternity, and lo, its waves have penetrated the inmost reality of all men.” Man, the noblest and most perfect of all created things, excelleth them all in the intensity of this revelation, and is a fuller expression of its glory. And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished, and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of Their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of Their grace.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 178-179

As I said, it's our imagination that separates us - that creates the reality of the experience you think is reality, that you are separate from God. I don't imagine that myself, and I see God everywhere, including myself. There is no separation possible. We only imagine it is so.

I do not think that belief is incompatible with the passages I posted. Maybe you will have an opinion which is most welcome. I do not pretend to be any kind of expert on God.

“The One True God is exalted beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived by anyone. Becoming a Partner with God would be to rival His glory and bring God down to a human level.”
No one claiming Oneness with God is saying their human ego rivals God. They are saying their human ego is an illusion of the mind. They are not separate from God, nor God from them. Think of it like this. We are God as who I am as a person. We all are. But in order to see that, to Realize that, you have to see that the ego is nothing. So there can be no "partner with God". Absolutely correct. You aren't the ego-self anymore. You do not remain anymore as this separate ego-self. You don't exist. Only God does.

Well, admittedly, you talk way over my head. As I said above I have never been any kind of God expert. I do however believe that the Messengers of God are the God experts fro the simple reason that they received communication from God through the Holy Spirit and no other humans are capable of receiving that.

“You can believe that if you wish. I believe that only the Messengers of God have direct access to God’s Truth.”
That's too bad. It's wonderful to just hear and see God speaking everywhere all the time, rather than isolated on the pages of some book you have to sit down and read words on. It's glorious to see it written on every cloud, every face, every animal, every plant, everything thing that exists in every second of all ages.

I did not mean that as I stated it. God is reflected in ALL of creation, as those passages above say. We all have access to God’s Truth which is within us and is within all of creation, but no human can access God directly, not even the Messengers of God gained access; they only heard God’s Voice and relayed a message to humanity.

And all of these, are ideas of your mind that you choose to place before you to separate yourself from the Knowledge of God. We all do that, until we no longer chose to do that anymore.

I am not separate from the Knowledge of God because I believe that Knowledge came through Baha’u’llah. It was released into the world and even those who are unaware of it are getting it indirectly.

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72

 

[GoodbyeDave]

The poll missed out my solution: realise that the "scriptures" are largely bunk.

 

[stvdv]

The poll missed out my solution: realise that the "scriptures" are largely bunk.

You did not understand the poll correctly: Poll question = "When I find multiple errors in scripture"
1: If you find "no errors" then just don't answer the poll.
2: If you find "errors" then select the options that apply to you

The poll is not about your "realization" that the scriptures are largely bunk
The poll is about "your feeling" when "finding errors". If "bunk" means "no errors" GOTO 1: ELSE GOTO 2:

 

[GoodbyeDave]

You did not understand the poll correctly … The poll is about "your feeling" when "finding errors".

I understood the poll: I just thought it was poorly done. I found multiple errors and my feeling was "this stuff is bunk". What part of that don't you understand?

 

[stvdv]

I understood the poll: I just thought it was poorly done. I found multiple errors and my feeling was "this stuff is bunk". What part of that don't you understand?

Oh now you rephrased it, before you said "I realized the scriptures were bunk". I replied to that. Realizing something need not be a feeling. I realize there are errors in a scripture does not say anything about my feelings.

Now you rephrased it and say "my feeling was `this stuff is bunk`".

So you see, my understanding was quite sharp.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I don't rely on scripture, I only care about the inspirational or useful ones. If I was into some scripture deeply, I'd probably ignore the bits that are errors or make no sense.

I think errors are a good thing. It provides contrast, helps guide one along when you notice them.

 

[Jumi]

I think errors are a good thing. It provides contrast, helps guide one along when you notice them.

Good point. If we don't even notice errors when reading, we're not concentrating but wasting our time.