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Human Sacrifice

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
So, in the same vain as my previous thread on animal sacrifice.

What makes human sacrifice wrong? And do we already do it in modern society?

I would say, yes, we do commit human sacrifice.

Any society that has the death penalty commits human sacrifice.

I am defining han sacrifice as follows: the killing of a person or person's to fulfill some ephemeral good/goal.

In the past human Sacrifice was often of captured warrior combatants, or willing participants. And these people were sacrificed in the name of the "greater good" and dedicated to the Gods.

I see no difference to that, and killing a criminal because of some transgressions. So that we can fulfill the ephemeral goal of "Justice", "order" and "law". Just like past sacrifices were for the ephemeral Gods.

These concepts are just as fleeting and morphic as the Gods themselves. Changing with society and it's desires. Just like the desires of the Gods change with the times.
The only purpose of human sacrifice is to spread religion, because it inspires people.

ancient aztecs sacrified people because there was belief that if they don't do it god would stop giving sunlight and rain - that is it would be the end of the world.
in middle ages burning witches inspired hordes of people because it was fun for them to watch and they were more inclined to stick with the church.
christian martyrs got sacrificed to inspire people and spread their way of living as an example etc etc.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
So, in the same vain as my previous thread on animal sacrifice.

What makes human sacrifice wrong? And do we already do it in modern society?

I would say, yes, we do commit human sacrifice.

Any society that has the death penalty commits human sacrifice.

I am defining han sacrifice as follows: the killing of a person or person's to fulfill some ephemeral good/goal.

In the past human Sacrifice was often of captured warrior combatants, or willing participants. And these people were sacrificed in the name of the "greater good" and dedicated to the Gods.

I see no difference to that, and killing a criminal because of some transgressions. So that we can fulfill the ephemeral goal of "Justice", "order" and "law". Just like past sacrifices were for the ephemeral Gods.

These concepts are just as fleeting and morphic as the Gods themselves. Changing with society and it's desires. Just like the desires of the Gods change with the times.

Going by the definition you gave here then yes, I would say the death penalty could constitute a form of human sacrifice. It doesn't really fulfil any practical goal outside of serving some people's idea of justice or vengeance. The notion that it serves as a deterrent is untrue and could therefore be viewed in much the same manner as the belief that a sacrifice to the gods would prevent disaster. Finally, capital punishment certainly entails ritualistic elements such as last meals, last words, an audience and so on.

In other words, it has many of the hallmarks of ancient sacrificial practices and seems to be distinguished from them mainly by semantics.
 

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
I'm against the death penalty. As for human sacrifice in general...

Taking a life needlessly is not ok. The only form of human sacrifice im ok with is if a life aint taken. Like a few drops of my own blood or something.
 
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Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Really my main goal with this thread though (and the animal sacrifice thread), was to point out that we are really still no different then our ancestors who did sacrifice to deities. We just don't consider them gods usually/anymore.

I would agree to this. We still engage in our violence and bloodshed, we just don't do them for deities anymore, preferring Money and Nationalism or Hollywood and Sport to fulfill these things.

I was recieving a lot of flak last week for being a Pagan Polytheist because our/my ancestors would have been ok with sacrifice, so that must mean that we want to bring those things back.

Considering nearly every culture has engaged in sacrifice, that seems pretty unreasonable to dump on pagans!
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
So, in the same vain as my previous thread on animal sacrifice.

What makes human sacrifice wrong? And do we already do it in modern society?

I would say, yes, we do commit human sacrifice.

Any society that has the death penalty commits human sacrifice.

I am defining han sacrifice as follows: the killing of a person or person's to fulfill some ephemeral good/goal.

In the past human Sacrifice was often of captured warrior combatants, or willing participants. And these people were sacrificed in the name of the "greater good" and dedicated to the Gods.

I see no difference to that, and killing a criminal because of some transgressions. So that we can fulfill the ephemeral goal of "Justice", "order" and "law". Just like past sacrifices were for the ephemeral Gods.

These concepts are just as fleeting and morphic as the Gods themselves. Changing with society and it's desires. Just like the desires of the Gods change with the times.

so you said we.

you approve of human sacrifice and see yourself as one who condones it?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I would argue against this position for several reasons.

The first is that many cultures that practiced human sacrifice did not see it the way you are describing and it often happened to non-willing victims, such as the case in Norse communities as we can see from this horrific description:

“They laid him forthwith in a grave which they covered up for ten days till they had finished cutting-out and sewing his costume,” he writes, before revealing that a slave girl is then given the “honour” of following her master into the afterlife. The process continues with much drinking and merry-making, and the slave girl eventually compelled to have ritualistic sex with several men, who say: “Tell your master I did this out of love for him.”

Then, an old woman known as the “Angel of Death” takes control of things, supervising the preparation of the ship, and the recovery of the body from its brief grave, to be adorned in its final costume and then placed on the ship with rich foods and opulent ornaments. The slave girl, lolling and “bewildered” after drinking alcohol, is then introduced to the scene, and brutally stabbed to death by the “Angel of Death” with a knife."


They also strangled the girl as well. So she was raped, drugged and murdered, all on behalf of her master who wants her to continue as his slave in the afterlife.

I don't think this is in any way comparable to the death penalty. It's needless torture.

Or this,

In addition to slicing out the hearts of victims and spilling their blood on the temple altar, it’s believed that the Aztecs also practiced a form of ritual cannibalism. The victim’s bodies, after being relieved of their heads, were likely gifted to noblemen and other distinguished community members. Sixteenth-century illustrations depict body parts being cooked in large pots and archeologists have identified telltale butcher marks on the bones of human remains in Aztec sites around Mexico City.

This is clearly not the same as the death penalty. The death penalty comes with due process for criminals who are found guilty by evidence and reason, there's nothing ephemeral about it. The DP is a way of removing a criminal from one's community, meanwhile human sacrifice victims are often if not always innocent. Even the captured soldiers who are sacrificed would be innocent here. They have not been tried or given any kind of due process at all.

The reasoning is also different. Human sacrifice often arises from a desire to please a God, to prevent some kind of natural disaster and so on, or as a retainer sacrifice for kings and slave masters.

Secondly, ancient societies that had the death penalty did not see it as a sacrifice. The Romans would be a classic example; they worked tirelessly to obliterate the practice wherever they found it, they prided themselves on not having the ritual, and found it disgusting.

"In ancient Rome, human sacrifice was infrequent but documented. Roman authors often contrast their own behavior with that of people who would commit the heinous act of human sacrifice. These authors make it clear that such practices were from a much more uncivilized time in the past, far removed. It is thought that many ritualistic celebrations and dedications to gods used to involve human sacrifice but have now been replaced with symbolic offerings. Dionysius of Halicarnassus says that the ritual of the Argei, in which straw figures were tossed into the Tiber river, may have been a substitute for an original offering of elderly men. Cicero claimed that puppets thrown from the Pons Suplicius by the Vestal Virgins in a processional ceremony were substitutes for the past sacrifice of old men."

Other societies that abandoned the practice were Ancient Egypt in around 2,800 bce, Persia, Buddhist nations, Israel and others. By the Common Era most had abandoned it.

And yet these societies all had the death penalty. None of them conflated the two. It seems absurd to accuse the DP of being a sacrifice, when even those cultures which had it would not have seen it that way, and those who did use criminals for the sacrifices, such as Celts, would use innocents were there no criminals.

It's just not the same imo.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
We sacrifice human lives to all sorts of causes, from personal greed to collective safety to sacred deities. Mostly, these days, we try to do it only for the greater good. But we still fail in that regard, often.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
So, in the same vain as my previous thread on animal sacrifice.

What makes human sacrifice wrong? And do we already do it in modern society?

I would say, yes, we do commit human sacrifice.

Any society that has the death penalty commits human sacrifice.

I am defining han sacrifice as follows: the killing of a person or person's to fulfill some ephemeral good/goal.

In the past human Sacrifice was often of captured warrior combatants, or willing participants. And these people were sacrificed in the name of the "greater good" and dedicated to the Gods.

I see no difference to that, and killing a criminal because of some transgressions. So that we can fulfill the ephemeral goal of "Justice", "order" and "law". Just like past sacrifices were for the ephemeral Gods.

These concepts are just as fleeting and morphic as the Gods themselves. Changing with society and it's desires. Just like the desires of the Gods change with the times.

Iraq: A Population Silenced

Many modern Christians frown on religions that practice human sacrifices.

The official United States State Department website, above, states that Saddam Hussein ordered 30,000 Iraqis in 60 villages killed with mustard gas. Additionally, religious and ethnic minorities were silenced and the press manipulated.

President W. Bush, had conflated the 911 attack with the fictional Axis of Evil. The 911 attack was destruction of the World Trade towers and Pentagon, and attempted destruction with the hijacked plane in Pennsylvania.

The fictional Axis of Evil was made up by W. Bush, and consisted of North Korea, Iran, and Iraq. Those are the three nations listed by PNAC (Project for a New American Century. . . a Republican think tank whose membership included W. Bush and brother Jeb Bush). PNAC published its manifesto which stated that those three nations had the technology and wealth to build nuclear weapons, and we needed a Pearl Harbor type of attack to motivate the citizens of the United States to attack them. Apparently the 911 attack was that Pearl Harbor type of attack. It is possible that W. Bush ordered the 911 attack, himself. Notice that W. Bush ordered planes not to stop the hijacked planes, and told people that it was only a drill. Notice that Osama bin Laden had been working for Reagan and Bush Senior.

W. Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were, apparently, holy jihads of Christians against Muslims, and W. Bush's battle cry was "fightin' evil." W. Bush's war in Iraq killed about 1,000,000 Iraqis.

You now ask about religions of human sacrifice. Most Christians don't consider wars to be human sacrifices, yet, that is precise what they are. Human lives were lost in a battle against evil (the Axis of Evil).

The website says that the Iraqi people were not allowed to vote to remove the government. Yet, under US occupation, only pro-United States Iraqi leaders and Afghan leaders were allowed. Notice that in the vacuum created by withdrawal of US forces, anti-American leaders took control of their governments. The US had tampered with their elections.

The website talks about torture at the hands of Saddam, yet, the US also had torture (very similar type of torture) in Guantanamo, Cuba.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I would argue against this position for several reasons.

The first is that many cultures that practiced human sacrifice did not see it the way you are describing and it often happened to non-willing victims, such as the case in Norse communities as we can see from this horrific description:

“They laid him forthwith in a grave which they covered up for ten days till they had finished cutting-out and sewing his costume,” he writes, before revealing that a slave girl is then given the “honour” of following her master into the afterlife. The process continues with much drinking and merry-making, and the slave girl eventually compelled to have ritualistic sex with several men, who say: “Tell your master I did this out of love for him.”

Then, an old woman known as the “Angel of Death” takes control of things, supervising the preparation of the ship, and the recovery of the body from its brief grave, to be adorned in its final costume and then placed on the ship with rich foods and opulent ornaments. The slave girl, lolling and “bewildered” after drinking alcohol, is then introduced to the scene, and brutally stabbed to death by the “Angel of Death” with a knife."


They also strangled the girl as well. So she was raped, drugged and murdered, all on behalf of her master who wants her to continue as his slave in the afterlife.

I don't think this is in any way comparable to the death penalty. It's needless torture.

Or this,

In addition to slicing out the hearts of victims and spilling their blood on the temple altar, it’s believed that the Aztecs also practiced a form of ritual cannibalism. The victim’s bodies, after being relieved of their heads, were likely gifted to noblemen and other distinguished community members. Sixteenth-century illustrations depict body parts being cooked in large pots and archeologists have identified telltale butcher marks on the bones of human remains in Aztec sites around Mexico City.

This is clearly not the same as the death penalty. The death penalty comes with due process for criminals who are found guilty by evidence and reason, there's nothing ephemeral about it. The DP is a way of removing a criminal from one's community, meanwhile human sacrifice victims are often if not always innocent. Even the captured soldiers who are sacrificed would be innocent here. They have not been tried or given any kind of due process at all.

The reasoning is also different. Human sacrifice often arises from a desire to please a God, to prevent some kind of natural disaster and so on, or as a retainer sacrifice for kings and slave masters.

Secondly, ancient societies that had the death penalty did not see it as a sacrifice. The Romans would be a classic example; they worked tirelessly to obliterate the practice wherever they found it, they prided themselves on not having the ritual, and found it disgusting.

"In ancient Rome, human sacrifice was infrequent but documented. Roman authors often contrast their own behavior with that of people who would commit the heinous act of human sacrifice. These authors make it clear that such practices were from a much more uncivilized time in the past, far removed. It is thought that many ritualistic celebrations and dedications to gods used to involve human sacrifice but have now been replaced with symbolic offerings. Dionysius of Halicarnassus says that the ritual of the Argei, in which straw figures were tossed into the Tiber river, may have been a substitute for an original offering of elderly men. Cicero claimed that puppets thrown from the Pons Suplicius by the Vestal Virgins in a processional ceremony were substitutes for the past sacrifice of old men."

Other societies that abandoned the practice were Ancient Egypt in around 2,800 bce, Persia, Buddhist nations, Israel and others. By the Common Era most had abandoned it.

And yet these societies all had the death penalty. None of them conflated the two. It seems absurd to accuse the DP of being a sacrifice, when even those cultures which had it would not have seen it that way, and those who did use criminals for the sacrifices, such as Celts, would use innocents were there no criminals.

It's just not the same imo.

Many cultures eat parts (hearts, etc.) of sacrificed victims to let them live on in the tribesmembers. That is, if they eat their heart, they are still "sort of" alive in the tribe. It isn't to harm the victim, it is to give immortality.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Anyone that is "truly dangerous" is probably mentally ill, imv

All of their multiple personalities got together and out-voted the psychologist who said that they all (all of the one person) is insane.

Religious freedom is good, unless it violates the law or morality. Thus, human sacrifice should be banned, even though the 1st Amendment grants religious freedom.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Going by the definition you gave here then yes, I would say the death penalty could constitute a form of human sacrifice. It doesn't really fulfil any practical goal outside of serving some people's idea of justice or vengeance. The notion that it serves as a deterrent is untrue and could therefore be viewed in much the same manner as the belief that a sacrifice to the gods would prevent disaster. Finally, capital punishment certainly entails ritualistic elements such as last meals, last words, an audience and so on.

In other words, it has many of the hallmarks of ancient sacrificial practices and seems to be distinguished from them mainly by semantics.

https://cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DezRubShepDeterFinal.pdf

Please see the scientific study about capital punishment as a deterrent to crime.

There are scientific studies that "prove" that capital punishment does and does not deter crime. Certainly, once dead, the criminal doesn't commit more crimes.

https://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/deterrence.pdf

This statement (website above from the Minnisota House of Representatives) is about deterrents (death penalties, arrests, fines) decreasing crimes.

Deterrence (penology) - Wikipedia

Wikipedia (above) suggests that intoxication (alcohol, narcotics), insanity, brain injury and stress (from unemployment, poverty, limited education) might cause crimes regardless of deterrents.

White collar crimes often don't have deterrents (steal a million dollars, get fined a thousand dollars if caught).
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
We sacrifice human lives to all sorts of causes, from personal greed to collective safety to sacred deities. Mostly, these days, we try to do it only for the greater good. But we still fail in that regard, often.

Heros risk their lives to save others (NY Fire Department lost lives in the 911 attack) (Soldiers die manning gun positions) ("lets roll" people stopped hijackers by crashing the 911 plane in Pennsylvania).

Some join the marines (toughest outfit, first to be sent to the front lines) because they want to get the enemy who attacked us.

President W. Bush hired a dummy W. Bush (look-alike) to land in a helicopter and be shot at (if there was a sniper) before his real helicopter landed. Some look alike was going to die for W. Bush. Wasn't he sufficiently punished by God by looking like W. Bush????

Some make the mistake of sacrificing others so they will get good crops of wheat, or rain, or a pass to get into heaven.

Abraham was supposed to sacrifice his son, Isaac, but clearly this was not a test of loyalty to God, but, rather, it was a test of Abraham's knowledge of the ten commandments. . . "thou shalt not kill" and "do unto others." To attempt to kill another for personal gain would likely destroy one's pass to heaven. If heaven allowed self-serving murderers, it wouldn't be heavenly, it would be hell.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
Any society that has the death penalty commits human sacrifice...

To whom that sacrifice is offered? If you don't own that human, what sacrifice it is to kill him? You have not really sacrificed anything, if you just kill something you didn't even own.

But, Bible says, don't murder, that is one reason to think it is wrong. Second is, Bible God doesn't want it and there is no good reason for to do so.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
https://cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DezRubShepDeterFinal.pdf

Please see the scientific study about capital punishment as a deterrent to crime.

There are scientific studies that "prove" that capital punishment does and does not deter crime. Certainly, once dead, the criminal doesn't commit more crimes.

https://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/deterrence.pdf

This statement (website above from the Minnisota House of Representatives) is about deterrents (death penalties, arrests, fines) decreasing crimes.

Deterrence (penology) - Wikipedia

Wikipedia (above) suggests that intoxication (alcohol, narcotics), insanity, brain injury and stress (from unemployment, poverty, limited education) might cause crimes regardless of deterrents.

White collar crimes often don't have deterrents (steal a million dollars, get fined a thousand dollars if caught).

Fair enough, I take your point that the death penalty's usefulness as a deterrent may be difficult (if not impossible) to prove definitively either way. There are too many factors that can't properly be controlled for and we don't necessarily know what was going through a person's mind when they commit a crime.

This does suggest to me that the deterrence argument is ultimately a matter of faith though. Less so than the belief that a human sacrifice could prevent disaster perhaps but I do think there's still a parallel there. If the efficacy of the most commonly cited benefit of the death penalty is unknowable to us, isn't it still a matter of belief rather than fact? Furthermore, if the benefit is dependent on regular executions, doesn't that tie into the OP's point about the good/goal being ephemeral?
 
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The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
Personally, I cannot recall ever thinking that I’m doing this or that “in name of the law”. But by “we”, perhaps you mean as in “a society”? Does society “worship” its laws though…? I’m not sure…


Humbly
Hermit

Yeah the royal "we" was a societal reference and not specific to you and me in particular.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Personally, I cannot recall ever thinking that I’m doing this or that “in name of the law”.
Friend, Hermit. Hindus are always advised to remember 'dharma' while performing any action. There is nothing as sacred in Hinduism as 'Dharma' (fulfilling your responsibility and engaging in righteous action). It is more important than worship of any God.
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Friend, Hermit. Hindus are always advised to remember 'dharma' while performing any action. There is nothing as sacred in Hinduism as 'Dharma' (fulfilling your responsibility and engaging in righteous action). It is more important than worship of any God.

It has just occurred to me that I have never had a conversation with a practising Hindu about their rituals and faith. How strange.

I’d imagine this “righteous action” ideally be free from the arrogance that at times coincides with those who consider themselves more righteous than another? All virtues are after all, delicate balancing-acts.


Humbly
Hermit
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
So, in the same vain as my previous thread on animal sacrifice.

What makes human sacrifice wrong? And do we already do it in modern society?

I would say, yes, we do commit human sacrifice.

Any society that has the death penalty commits human sacrifice.

I am defining han sacrifice as follows: the killing of a person or person's to fulfill some ephemeral good/goal.

In the past human Sacrifice was often of captured warrior combatants, or willing participants. And these people were sacrificed in the name of the "greater good" and dedicated to the Gods.

I see no difference to that, and killing a criminal because of some transgressions. So that we can fulfill the ephemeral goal of "Justice", "order" and "law". Just like past sacrifices were for the ephemeral Gods.

These concepts are just as fleeting and morphic as the Gods themselves. Changing with society and it's desires. Just like the desires of the Gods change with the times.
It is quite simple for me: prevent the need in the first place, and if that doesn’t work and people will be tortured, raped, or killed because the criminals like doing that, we must protect innocent people from the criminals.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
........ What makes human sacrifice wrong? And do we already do it in modern society?I would say, yes, we do commit human sacrifice. Any society that has the death penalty commits human sacrifice.
I am defining han sacrifice as follows: the killing of a person or person's to fulfill some ephemeral good/goal.
In the past human Sacrifice was often of captured warrior combatants, or willing participants. And these people were sacrificed in the name of the "greater good" and dedicated to the Gods.
I see no difference to that, and killing a criminal because of some transgressions. So that we can fulfill the ephemeral goal of "Justice", "order" and "law". Just like past sacrifices were for the ephemeral Gods.
These concepts are just as fleeting and morphic as the Gods themselves. Changing with society and it's desires. Just like the desires of the Gods change with the times.
As far as the death penalty I find there is a difference between killing, murder and an execution for the sake of justice.
An execution for the sake of equal justice for righteous ones. Life for life. Someone caught 'red-handed' so to speak.

Yes, human sacrifice, so to speak, is done in modern society such as when clergy use the pulpit as a recruiting station for the political goal so that parents will sacrifice their sons on the Altar of War as if that is the same as the Altar of God which it isn't.
Not God's goal, but man's political goal in trying to say that is the same as God's goal which it is not.
Christian are under the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) so Christians would be politically neutral in world affairs.
Or, as Jesus taught to lay down the sword (Matthew 26:52) Christian warfare is Not fleshly/carnal but spiritual in nature, spiritual armor - 2 Corinthians 10:4; Ephesians 6:11-17
 
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