humankind is evil: change my mind

[F1fan]

I'm not a young-Earth creationist and I believe that humans evolved but according to the creation account of my religion God did create the world as he wanted, which was characterised by having its human population live in blissful communion with him but that human free-will lead to the end of this state of affairs.

And this would work if humans were created (evolved) to be mentally stable, naturally mature, more naturally rational, etc. In fact we evolved with a fully functioning fight or flight fear response mechanism along side frontal lobes, and the two do not fully work together without learning discipline. A huge flaw of Abrahamic religions is the exploitation of weaknesses, not the emphasis on mental discipline.

In today's terms: They chose the red pill.

I believe this is a metaphor for humans at some point ceasing to live in a state of nature, and instead becoming more socially organised.

It is social organisation that I think is evil. Not humans.

Then God should not have made humans so fertile as to lead to 8 billion on the planet. Why blame humans for doing what humans were "created" to do?

I believe that Jesus will save us from The System which has developed and that our close relationship with God will eventually be somehow restored

Why didn't God just create humans the way it wanted IF Jesuds is supposed to solve some problkem that God created?

Believers keep trying to blame huymans for prtoblems that God created (according to their religious beleifs). Why is God never held accountable? It's like parents giving teenagers machine guns at recess, and then sending one adult to go collect the guns after 30 minutes, and blaming the teenagers for all the dead and wounded. No, the adults should have known better, just as a God should have known better.

Because one one hand he wanted his creation to be realistic yet on the other he does care for us. This makes for a very messy and conflicted situation.

Messy, just as God created. So who is to blame for messy? God.

I believe "fallen" is a metaphor for "civilised" - e.g. living in settlements, making buildings, practicing agriculture, pottery, domesticating animals, working bronze, devising systems of writing etc. - basically, becoming organised

Be aware that humans created Gods as a means to manage bigger civilizations. This was a stop-gap solution that only worked as long as the citizens were not very well educated and overly superstitious. There are no actual gods known to exist. If you adopted Christian dogma then you are one in a lineage of humans manipulated by this tradition of belief. Jotice how secular governments have taken the place of theocractic rule in more advanced civilizations, and that is because we can't trust humans when given absolute authority via a "God".

God wanting to rescue us from a fallen state therefore means God wanting to rescue us from the means by which we are currently organised

So a God that doersn't know what he is doing, and needing to fix problems as time goes on. Kinda like Microsoft Windows needing patches to fix problems. Far from being perfect, eh?

Here is my train of thought:

fallen = developed/civilised
developed/civilised = The System
The System = evil

I believe Jesus will free us from the system that humankind has developed, which is anti-human, anti-God, and anti-planet

Once this happens The System will be God's system, not humankind's system

Why not just use sociology to explain human behavior instead trying to make this flawed theology work? You are adding a lot of ideas and thinking that are not in the Bible, so what is the point? It's not Biblical, you are just trying to make an irrational scenario seem workable. How exhausting. Is it really a good use of time?

Why did God create Satan? Perhaps Satan is a kind of divine civil servant who is patron of The System which developed as human civilisation became increasingly advanced?

See how your answer is sveculation and avoiding WHY God did it? You are working hard to cover for God making a terrible decision. Why? Is it possible you recognize that it was either foolish or evil, and you don;t like either most probable answers?

I don't see Satan as being pure embodied evil, I see him as morally neutral but in a position which does evil

Yet another attempt to minimize the terrible effects of Satn being created. Can you not stand back and see what your mind is trying to do? You are working hard to justify God's decidion to create Satan, and justify all the negatibve effects that sabotaged what you claim God wants. Why did Eden Fall? Because of what Satan did. How did Satan get into Eden? God. Why wasn't Adam and Eve able to resist temptation by Satan? because Goid did not create them able to resist temptation.

At all points God is responsible for the Fall, so why would God want a solution? All the turmoil, evil, wars, murder, greed, cheating, lying is due to the world God created. If God wanted a differnt outcome don't you think he woulkd have made it happen?

[He has a job which has been given to him and he's doing it as best he can with only very limited powers

So you admit it is all God's doing, and God is responsible. All you have to do is hold God accountable.

That's my understanding anyway

Consider my thoughts.

 

[Quintessence]

I believe that there are many non-evil members of humankind but that they lack influence

Nonsense. Human history is overwhelmingly dominated with a lack of evil, because if it were otherwise, we would have already driven ourselves to extinction. Don't let the extremely small percentage of psychopaths in the global population drive your impressions of an entire species.

But how on Earth might humankind be reformed? For the good of the planet and for the good of other humans?

It doesn't need reforming. Believing that it does is yet another manifestation of human hubris. Who are you (or I) to pass judgement? To make such decrees? This planet has been around for a few billion years. Life's been around for around the same. Life comes, life goes; entire continents move around, lift into mountains and plunge underwater. Put things in perspective and you start realizing the comedy of being so judgmental.

 

[MJ Bailey]

It would be quite difficult for me to argue with the OP. Mis-appropriation of technologies is a fundamental clue of humanities self obsessions. Entertainment being a lead objective for innovational techni1ques IMO is one key to humanity's narcissism and evolutional set back. :Instead of taking care of what is known to exist and is needed for survival not only for the human species another planet is sought. Quite sickening is how it makes me feel and embarrassing to shared co-existences.

 

[Eddi]

Then God should not have made humans so fertile as to lead to 8 billion on the planet. Why blame humans for doing what humans were "created" to do?

He also made it possible for humans to use contraception, it's not his fault people give in so easily to their biological drives

It is in the power of humankind to stop multiplying. If it really wants to......

Why didn't God just create humans the way it wanted IF Jesuds is supposed to solve some problkem that God created?

Because an important part of being human is having free will - the ability to disobey God and ignore religious teachings

Be aware that humans created Gods as a means to manage bigger civilizations. This was a stop-gap solution that only worked as long as the citizens were not very well educated and overly superstitious. There are no actual gods known to exist. If you adopted Christian dogma then you are one in a lineage of humans manipulated by this tradition of belief. Jotice how secular governments have taken the place of theocractic rule in more advanced civilizations, and that is because we can't trust humans when given absolute authority via a "God".

None of this has anything to do with the truth of the claim that there is a God

So a God that doersn't know what he is doing, and needing to fix problems as time goes on. Kinda like Microsoft Windows needing patches to fix problems. Far from being perfect, eh?

It will all work out in the end

God wants us to be restored to him after having a fall

In order for there to be a restoration there must be a fall

He wanted humankind to fall so that it might develop naturally and mature at a distance from God - to stop being animals and to become beings more in his own image. i.e. being capable of moral judgement and being able to choose between good and evil

He wants a relationship with sophisticated adults - not overgrown naive children like Adam and Eve

None of this would have been possible if humankind was confined to Eden and not removed from the proximity to God

I have seen a cartoon once of God and Adam and Eve in Eden with God stood behind the tree of knowledge manipulating a puppet snake, to show that God wanted Satan to tempt Adam and Eve and for Adam and Eve to fall, that Satan was doing God's bidding

I tried to find it for this post, but no such luck.

Why not just use sociology to explain human behavior instead trying to make this flawed theology work?

My academic background is in the social sciences, my academic background is secular in nature

But I am now a religious person, hence I see things in religious terms

Why did God create Satan?

The traditional answer is that he was once "good" but then rebelled against God and was therefore cast out of Heaven.....

I believe the word "Satan" comes from the word "adversary" - note adversary, not enemy

(But yes, those who want to know Jesus should shun Satan as his job is to keep people from Jesus)

Consider British politics - there is an official Loyal Opposition. It opposes the government but does not seek to depose it.

The Government and The Opposition are said to be adversaries, not enemies. They are parts of the same system. The system is said to be "adversarial".

Back to the issue of Satan. Two things come to mind:

• God is not omni-benevolent, he has an agenda that goes beyond any concern for individual human welfare. But the person of Jesus does care and is there to help us out
• God does not exercise all of his powers, he wants a natural order to be in effect, he intervenes only sparingly

Hence there was nothing stopping him from creating Satan and allowing Satan to do things

I believe that from the very beginning God wanted humankind to be restored from a fallen state

A part of this would require humankind to fall and to remain fallen until the time is right

It is as though the whole of reality is a game or a simulation!

Satan is like The Game, and humans are like Players who are playing The Game - the aim of which is to progress to Heaven although the aim is not readily obvious unless you look in the right places

Humans shouldn't compete against each other, they should co-operate against Satan! - yet many many humans freely choose to side with him!

Humankind is now ready for the next stage in God's plan: Restoration

I have no idea what this would involve apart from that it would have something to do with Jesus, but the traditional answer would have something to do with End Times although I am not sure what exactly that would entail

The precise answer as to why God created Satan has something to do with reality being like a game. Satan is in control within the game but it is not his own game, he is merely there to present a challenge to humankind by managing the game where and when needed

God doesn't do this himself although he created The Game and appointed Satan as master of The Game

So in this sense, God and Satan aren't adversaries although they are in that Satan tries to tempt people away from Jesus as that is what the game requires.......

 

[Eddi]

Nonsense. Human history is overwhelmingly dominated with a lack of evil, because if it were otherwise, we would have already driven ourselves to extinction. Don't let the extremely small percentage of psychopaths in the global population drive your impressions of an entire species.

But look at the disproportionate influence evil people have had

Our world has been shaped by two forces: 1) evil and 2) resistance against evil

There's the old saying "love makes the wold go round". Well, I think evil makes it go round too, just as much if not more

It doesn't need reforming. Believing that it does is yet another manifestation of human hubris. Who are you (or I) to pass judgement? To make such decrees?

Well, I think I am quite well placed to pass judgement on persons such as Hitler or Stalin since I haven't killed anyone, let alone millions.....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is humankind evil?

I think so.....

Humankind is evil. Change my mind

Consider the following:

Humankind has declared planet Earth to be its property

I'm not sure where it got that idea from......

Humankind is destroying the environment

Humankind is unwilling to live in balance with the natural world that sustains it

It has declared an enormous free-for-all on the Earth's resources that is detrimental to life and biodiversity

Humankind is obsessed with accumulating a profit

Its whole social and political organisation reflects its obsession with profit as does its entire culture, which serves to pacify dissent and brainwash people

Humankind persecutes and exploits itself

Humankind turns differences into divisions

Humanity is vain and self-obsessed

It knows it was made in the image of God but does not behave as though it is, quite the contrary

It is even cruel to its own self - consider all the horrors of war (war being an integral part of its social organisation)

And it wants to spread its nonsense throughout the galaxy, that is its long-term aim

Message to extra-terrestrials: Keep away! We are bad news!

But good news for you - we will most likely destroy ourselves before we can threaten you!

Also: Fermi Paradox = Explained. We are an evil species. They want nothing to do with us.

I believe Jesus will save many humans but that humankind will eventually cease to exist. Perhaps he will save humans from humankind????

This kind of makes sense from a Christian point of view: Humankind is fallen but humankind will be restored. Eventually!

I can't convince you there aren't some nasty humans. Many of us are. But with one name I am confident you can begin to understand we aren't all bad and some of us would even be suitable to meet alien life on a diplomatic, first contact mission:
Jane Goodall.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

We're not evil. Our dominion on Earth is creating God. I am so far removed from @Eddi 's position. I suppose he is taking this position in part due to the original sin of Adam and Eve. Doesn't matter either way. Eddi has distanced himself from reality with this thread.

 

[Quintessence]

But look at the disproportionate influence evil people have had

What disproportionate influence? Disproportionately gossiped about? Fixated upon?

Have you heard of the notion of attention being like currency? That "paying attention" really is paying into something by giving it your time and focus?

If you choose to fixate and obsess about the less than 1% of the human population that are bona fide psychopaths, you are paying them with the currency of your attention. This is a power you gave them. It is not inherent. You decided to pay into them and decry humanity as evil because you haven't put your currency of attention elsewhere.

To me the real question is - why do you do that?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Is humankind evil?

I think so.....

Humankind is evil. Change my mind

Consider the following:

Humankind has declared planet Earth to be its property

I'm not sure where it got that idea from......

Humankind is destroying the environment

Humankind is unwilling to live in balance with the natural world that sustains it

It has declared an enormous free-for-all on the Earth's resources that is detrimental to life and biodiversity

Humankind is obsessed with accumulating a profit

Its whole social and political organisation reflects its obsession with profit as does its entire culture, which serves to pacify dissent and brainwash people

Humankind persecutes and exploits itself

Humankind turns differences into divisions

Humanity is vain and self-obsessed

It knows it was made in the image of God but does not behave as though it is, quite the contrary

It is even cruel to its own self - consider all the horrors of war (war being an integral part of its social organisation)

And it wants to spread its nonsense throughout the galaxy, that is its long-term aim

Message to extra-terrestrials: Keep away! We are bad news!

But good news for you - we will most likely destroy ourselves before we can threaten you!

Also: Fermi Paradox = Explained. We are an evil species. They want nothing to do with us.

I believe Jesus will save many humans but that humankind will eventually cease to exist. Perhaps he will save humans from humankind????

This kind of makes sense from a Christian point of view: Humankind is fallen but humankind will be restored. Eventually!

And yet, selfish, prideful and greedy as we are, we are all capable of kindness, tenderness, forgiveness and love. If anything save us, it’ll be that.

 

[Eddi]

Eddi has distanced himself from reality with this thread.

Here's a dose of reality:

Humankind is trashing Planet Earth (true)
Humankind is persecuting and exploiting itself (true)

These things are evil therefore Humankind is evil (sound conclusion)

Most individual humans are good
But Humankind as a collective is evil as it creates evil systems and structures that HRAM individuals, communities, and nature

Humankind is bad for itself

It is run by a tiny, tiny number of super-powerful people who are only interested in their immediate, short-term sectional interest, and they don't care about others, they see others as resources to be exploited

It's all about hoarding stuff

Yes, conditions aren't universally hellish

But as I see it, it is pretty un-Godly to say the least

It is all too easy for us to say it is all hunky-dory from the safety, comfort, and security of our first-world developed nations

Much of the world lives in squalor and under tyranny

It needn't be this way but it is.

 

[JDMS]

Humans are easily my least favorite species. I often wax misanthropic. But even *I* am saying you are not making a fair assessment.

I feel the same way. I often find myself resenting common aspects of human nature, but this degree of overgeneralization isn't fair.

 

[Eddi]

What disproportionate influence? Disproportionately gossiped about? Fixated upon?

Have you heard of the notion of attention being like currency? That "paying attention" really is paying into something by giving it your time and focus?

If you choose to fixate and obsess about the less than 1% of the human population that are bona fide psychopaths, you are paying them with the currency of your attention. This is a power you gave them. It is not inherent. You decided to pay into them and decry humanity as evil because you haven't put your currency of attention elsewhere.

To me the real question is - why do you do that?

That's very optimistic of you and maybe I have been unduly pessimistic

The thing is, for all my pessimism I am convinced that good will eventually triumph

So maybe for that to happen there must be many good people, who are well organised?

I suppose it is up to each of us to be a good influence and to associate with other such people

 

[Eddi]

@Quintessence

I have decided to stop moaning about how bad things are and to focus instead on the goodness that exists in this world and the good people who inhabit it

I think this is healthier and a better use of time

However, I want to improve it by removing structures and systems that are most decidedly evil

These systems and structures needn't define our species!

It is up to individual humans to combine and change the moral nature of their civilisation

We must systematically defy evil

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

It needn't be this way but it is.

If humans are evil then so is God.
Think about it. God created man from his image.
If that is the case then according to you both God and humans are evil.
I don't really think you understand what you're entailing by saying all of this.
(And to be honest, I don't think God nor humans are evil.)

 

[Eddi]

If humans are evil then so is God.
Think about it. God created man from his image.
If that is the case then according to you both God and humans are evil.
I don't really think you understand what you're entailing by saying all of this.
(And to be honest, I don't think God nor humans are evil.)

I wasn't saying that individual humans are evil

But I do think most of the systems and structures of humankind are, in one way or another

And I believe these things to be Satanic

 

[Aštra’el]

Humanity is beautiful, and humanity is terrible… just like the world around us.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

I wasn't saying that individual humans are evil

But I do think most of the systems and structures of humankind are, in one way or another

And I believe these things to be Satanic

George Carlin thought similar to you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@Eddi

Humankind has a dual nature. We have an inclination to evil (yetzer hara) and an inclination to good (yetzer hatov). For every evil committed, you have a whole shlew of loving things done, whether it is the simple act of pausing your car for pedestrians to cross the street, or a mother singing to her newborn, or smiling and saying thank you to the cashier at the grocery store, etc. You also have big acts, like charitable organizations functioning on the donations of generous people, or individuals who put their lives at risk to save someone in danger. But I would rather you open your eyes to the every day random acts of kindness that most human beings do, day in and day out.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I think the most succinct way to put it is that each human has a great potential for evil and also a great potential for good.
Every one of us does evil, so you are basically correct, however we are not totally depraved.

If that were the case, this Earth would be a literal hell.
"We all have a dark side to say the least." ( Pink Floyd)

 

[rational experiences]

Evil says a human.

About another human. Concepts of choices a human seeing humans. To determine that determined choices are harmful hurtful and not mutual.

Don't hurt my life...but I'll hurt yours.
Let me be rich but you can suffer in poverty...not because natural laws are poverty....humans as men gave you everything you needed. Lied.

Natural laws garden had.

Because I took control of everything to be greedy rich and an abuser...gloats in others misery. Contrived to cause misery for my entertainment. Thoughts.

Evil is by choice not by being human. But you have to be present a human to make those choices.

Status one species human. Most are moral caring kind generous living.... loving.

Abide laws. Reason I don't want to be tortured by evil minded hierarchy the reason why I abide laws...not that all laws are mutual as they prove they aren't..

Again Rich man's false forced family overthrow. Father a family man.

Brother a dictator.

Fiction...his words describing everything first used a second time to attack it all.

Evil minded human.