Hunting for the Joy of the Kill: Ethical or Not?

[Valjean]

If you kill to enjoy the killing, your not worth anything, your nothing but a moron.

I disagree.
The enjoyment of hunting/killing is hard-wired into Hominen psychology. It's an innate drive, only recently superseded by social cosmopolitanism.
I concede human psychology is changing; adapting to a civilised world. I agree that carnivory and hunting may be immoral in most societies, but I'm not ready to label everyone with a historically normal psyche a moron.

 

[Yerda]

The articles are about the benefits of trophy hunting when it is done right.
The one goes into detail about how much damage anti-hunters can do to a population.

Aye, I read them both.

The hunters in my circle and I report all kill and drop sites we come across.
We do not condone such behaviour.

I don't know what that is.

Two of us hunt for the thrill of the hunt.
We donate our kills to a local butcher shop who processes the animals and donates them to the local food bank.
The rest either process the animals themselves or take them to the same butcher to be processed for a fee.

Ok. I'm not a hunter and I don't take any pleasure in the thought of stalking deer or whatever so I can't relate. My gut instinct is that it's generally better if the animals lives aren't taken but having read your articles and thought about it today I see it isn't so clear.

On a related note, I read recently that introducing apex predators to an ecosystem (I think it was Yellowstone) can have beneficial effects right down the food chain and conservationists seem to like this. I reckon being chased down and ripped apart by a pack of wolves is probably worse than being shot.

 

[Yerda]

P1: All intentional human acts that cause unnecessary and non-beneficent suffering and are perpetrated solely to satisfy temporary human desires are acts that are morally equivalent.
P2: “Hunting for the joy of the kill” and “rape for the joy of the conquest” are intentional human acts that cause unnecessary and non-beneficent suffering and are perpetrated solely to satisfy temporary human desires.
C: Therefore, “hunting for the joy of the kill” and “rape for the joy of the conquest” are acts that are morally equivalent.

I would question the validity of P1.

 

[psychoslice]

I disagree.
The enjoyment of hunting/killing is hard-wired into Hominen psychology. It's an innate drive, only recently superseded by social cosmopolitanism.
I concede human psychology is changing; adapting to a civilised world. I agree that carnivory and hunting may be immoral in most societies, but I'm not ready to label everyone with a historically normal psyche a moron.

Didn't you see the highlight on enjoy killing ?.

 

[metis]

That's a pretty big generalization imo. There are plenty of examples of hunting in both stationary and nomadic tribal groups which was for contest, for ascension to manhood ceremonies, and for decoration. That they don't often waste the meat doesn't change the motive is not always for the meat. Lots of modern trophy hunters don't waste the meat either, especially valuable meats like elk, bear, alligator, etc.

What you say above is true with a great many, but even with that being said there's also typically strong feelings about killing animal life in terms of regret. This is especially true because the traditional religion was animism, which had it that animals had spirits as well as humans. Hunting was typically put in terms of necessity and not so much sport, although no doubt there was often pride involved as well. Often the concept was that the animal was willing to give up its life so "the People" could live.

For example, most Amerindian celebrations involved paying respect to animals, including mimicking their behavior in dance, and if one goes to today's "pow-wows", one sees that being played out.

 

[Valjean]

Didn't you see the highlight on enjoy killing ?.

I did, but I see the enjoyment as inextricable from the drive. Like sex, hunting was necessary for survival, and both drives were facilitated by pleasure in their execution.

Don't get me wrong. I've been a vegan and animal rights supporter for decades, but I accept the fact that carnivory was a fundamental feature of hominen evolution, and that individuals who do not find hunting pleasurable are something new in the world.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

What you say above is true with a great many, but even with that being said there's also typically strong feelings about killing animal life in terms of regret. This is especially true because the traditional religion was animism, which had it that animals had spirits as well as humans. Hunting was typically put in terms of necessity and not so much sport, although no doubt there was often pride involved as well. Often the concept was that the animal was willing to give up its life so "the People" could live.

For example, most Amerindian celebrations involved paying respect to animals, including mimicking their behavior in dance, and if one goes to today's "pow-wows", one sees that being played out.

Amerindian animism is probably the strongest form of animism of the examples you listed, but even they were people. And depending on the individual's and the tribe's belief, lots of excess hunting could be done for both ceremony, sport or untrue medicinal reasons. But, for example, Australian Aboriginals were so not at harmony with their environment that some anthropologists believe that their macrofauna hunting technique (surrounding large predators in bush fire) contributed to the Australian central desert becoming as barren as it is. They may have thought it was a matter of survival or personal glory or sport, we can't say for sure. But we do know they made many macrofauna go extinct and radically changed their landscape.

 

[Ana.J]

Just imagine that group of humans would decide to hunt you for fun. Ethical or not?

 

[McBell]

Just imagine that group of humans would decide to hunt you for fun. Ethical or not?

Where do you draw that particular "ethical" line?

 

[McBell]

I don't know what that is.

Kill and drop is when a hunter leaves their kill.
I have stumbled upon a pile of turkeys all shot with buckshot and left in a pile with their beards missing.
In my opinion it is the same as poaching.

 

[Nous]

I would question the validity of P1.

I don't know what you mean by "the validity of P1," but go right ahead and show that it is questionable.

 

[Nous]

The enjoyment of hunting/killing is hard-wired into Hominen psychology.

What does that mean, and where did you get that idea? There are no known wires in the discipline of psychology.

And how were these "hard wires" "superseded by social cosmopolitanism"?

 

[Ana.J]

Where do you draw that particular "ethical" line?

That is the point. We ponder about if it is ethical to take animal life....but why animals are worse than humans? Why don't you think it is equally unethical to hunt animals as it is humans by default?

 

[McBell]

I don't know what you mean by "the validity of P1," but go right ahead and show that it is questionable.

Wait...
You are being serious about that?

Wow.
Just wow.

Ok.
What does your strawman have to do with the thread?

 

[McBell]

That is the point. We ponder about if it is ethical to take animal life....but why animals are worse than humans? Why don't you think it is equally unethical to hunt animals as it is humans by default?

You did not answer the question.

You do know there are laws against hunting humans, right?
I mean, why do they call it Tourist Season if we are not allowed to shoot them?

How many humans have you eaten?
I have lost count of the number of deer I have eaten.
Not to mention the fish...

I hear tell human tastes like chicken.
Do you know if that is true?

If you were to pay attention to my posts in this thread, you would know that I do not condone kill and drop.
What are you gonna do with the human after you kill it in the hunt?
eat it?

 

[Nous]

What does your strawman have to do with the thread?

What straw man argument are you talking about? Quote it.

 

[Ana.J]

You did not answer the question.

You do know there are laws against hunting humans, right?
I mean, why do they call it Tourist Season if we are not allowed to shoot them?

How many humans have you eaten?
I have lost count of the number of deer I have eaten.
Not to mention the fish...

I hear tell human tastes like chicken.
Do you know if that is true?

If you were to pay attention to my posts in this thread, you would know that I do not condone kill and drop.
What are you gonna do with the human after you kill it in the hunt?
eat it?

What are you talking about? There are laws against hunting animals too. So what?

I am not saying that we should start hunting humans. I am saying that it should be equally bad to hunt both animals and humans for fun. Just because we have no right to take animal's life as well as human's.

 

[McBell]

What straw man argument are you talking about? Quote it.

My apologies.
You are correct.
It is not a strawman.

 

[McBell]

What are you talking about? There are laws against hunting animals too. So what?

I can list a ton and a half of laws that state you can hunt animals.
Please be so kind as to list even one law that states you can hunt humans.

Just because we have no right to take animal's life as well as human's.

Says who?

I mean, all fifty states have laws and regulations concerning how you may enjoy the right to hunt animals....

AND you still have not answered the question

 

[Acim]

I'm going with relatively okay.

I don't currently hunt and cannot relate to the joy of hunting. But the question is, as I understand it, taking joy in killing (animals, non-humans).

So, I sit here trying to relate it to other things: like a paintball game. Is there joy in that activity, and if so, what is it that people enjoy when doing that? But recognize no one is getting killed (intentionally) during that activity, yet seems like it would be similar mindset. Then I think of video games where the object may be to kill pixels that look like humans, and that there is joy in playing the game, joy in getting as many kills as possible.

Yet, I do neither paintball nor FPS type video games, but think I could see the cause for joy in both.

Seems a lot in the thread are framing it through whether or not what is shot at, after it is dead is being used for noble purposes, or not. But that to me is after the fact of the joy that would be occurring (during hunting). So, what are the alternative(s) to that? Would seem the obvious one would be to hate the idea that you have to hunt and kill things, but you do it anyway (for whatever reason). That you are somehow obligated to not enjoy the activity, because it results in killing. I'd probably put myself in that category right now, but also see that as I'm rather inexperienced and don't want to think of myself as having joy in the activity that results in death (by my intention). Yet, I think it not really plausible to live on this planet and not kill at all. I'm including micro organisms or say insects in that assertion, but then for sure saying if you eat food, chances are whatever you are eating was once alive, and now it is not, and your desire is part of the demand that others are willing to supply (for profit, fair trade). Thus enjoying eating would seem to be somewhat related, but I'm thinking many would want to distance that joy as much as possible from joy of killing.

Other alternatives to joy in killing animals or hate in killing animals would be something in between, like you do the chore (or activity) because you justify it has to be done and you are coming from mindset of nobility. Not joy, nor hate, but something along lines of minor annoyance and you are capable of doing it efficiently, have experience of doing it with sense of confidence and care for all facets of the activity, including what is done after the fact.

Kinda seems to me that one might say instead of taking joy in hunting to kill, that you ought to not hunt at all. That this is proper way to frame it. I actually think that is what a substantial amount of people are essentially wishing to convey. I personally think that neglects the idea of how utterly necessary killing of some sort is to survive on this planet. And so then it does come back to whether you enjoy the activities in life or you have some other mindset (i.e. hate, nuisance, aim for efficiency, and so on). All of which, to me, would be open to reasonable scrutiny, but which are likely to not get as much notice, cause the idea of enjoying killing is seemingly so contradictory. And yet, I'm not sure how it is entirely escapable while living on this planet.

Spiritually, or philosophically, I think it plausible to engage in higher understanding and purpose whereby survival is not dependent on life on this planet (i.e. that there surely is an afterlife from existence on earth) which when taken into intellectual consideration and then (hopefully) experienced in a spiritual/mystical way would have you realize killing is entirely unnecessary for you/anyone to live (truly live). But seeing that this is essentially denying the physical, then I am compelled to come back to where I started.

I'm going with relatively okay.