• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Hypocrites

nPeace

Veteran Member
I was reading Matthew 22.
In verses 15-17, the religious leaders conspired on how they could "frame trouble by decree" against something Jesus says.

They obviously did not know the man they were dealing with.
The scriptures say, (Matthew 22:18-22) But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said: “Why do you put me to the test, hypocrites?
Show me the tax coin.” They brought him a denarius. He said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” When they heard that, they were amazed, and they left him and went away.
Does this sort of thing still happen today? Are there hypocrites today, who resort to such wickedness?

These wicked men - hypocrites, Jesus called them - brought with them political supporters of Herod, and they put a question to him. Their objective was clear. They were hoping for him to say something in the presence of the party followers of Herod, so that they could find something criminal against him.
Isn't that wicked.
I'm sure persons here, might be able to refer to some real life cases. Please share.

I have a few in mind that are identical.
1) (1916-1918)
Martin Thomas Manton - Wikipedia
Manton was nominated by President Woodrow Wilson on August 15, 1916, to a seat on the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York vacated by Judge Charles Merrill Hough. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on August 23, 1916, and received his commission the same day. In 1918, he had eight officials of the Watch Tower Society railroaded into prison on trumped-up charges of sedition. But these officials were released after nine months and were later exonerated. U.S. federal judge Martin T. Manton, who had kept these Bible Students in prison by refusing bail, was later decorated by Pope Pius XI, being made a “knight of the order of St. Gregory the Great.” However, his glory was short-lived, for in 1939 he was sentenced to two years in prison and a heavy fine. Why? Because he was found guilty of selling six court decisions for a total of $186,000 in bribes! His service terminated on March 22, 1918, due to his elevation to the Second Circuit.
His service terminated on February 7, 1939, due to his resignation [under pressure of investigations].
Manton was acquitted of bribery, but convicted of conspiracy to obstruct justice. He served 19 months in federal prison.

Manton was a prominent Catholic in New York. The street fronting Archbishop Molloy High School and an adjacent playground in Briarwood, Queens, bears his name.
2) (2017-2021)
'We Liked to Sing. Now We Can Only Whisper.' How Russia Is Stepping Up Its Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses
Russia’s justice ministry calls the group, which has grown its membership here to 170,000, a threat to public order. They were banned as “extremist” in Russia in 2017, putting them in the same ranks as neo-Nazis. A spokesperson for the conservative Russian Orthodox Church, which has grown in influence under Putin, has said Jehovah’s Witnesses manipulate people’s consciousness and “can not be called Christians.”
Once a source of support for the tsars, the resurgent Orthodox church has now become a pillar of Putin’s rule, which Patriarch Kirill has described as a “miracle of God,” and of Russian influence abroad. The state gives tens of millions of dollars to the church each year, and the military is building a 300-foot-tall Orthodox cathedral with steps made of melted down Nazi tanks at a patriotic park outside Moscow
.


What was Putin - the Russian president's response to a question about the ban? Read the article. His response reveals what's behind it.

Framing trouble by decree is a long used strategy by the wicked.
(1 Kings 21:10) And have two good-for-nothing men sit in front of him and testify against him, saying, ‘You have cursed God and the king!’ Then bring him out and stone him to death.”
(Psalm 58:2) Instead, you devise unrighteousness in your heart, And your hands dispense violence in the land.
(Isaiah 10:1) Woe to those who enact harmful regulations, Who constantly draft oppressive decrees,
(Daniel 3:5) that when you hear the sound of the horn, pipe, zither, triangular harp, stringed instrument, bagpipe, and all the other musical instruments, you must fall down and worship the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up.
(Daniel 6:7) All the royal officials, prefects, satraps, high royal officers, and governors have consulted together to establish a royal decree and to enforce a ban, that for 30 days whoever makes a petition to any god or man except to you, O king, should be thrown into the lions’ pit.
(Acts 5:28) and said: “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.”

Framing trouble by decree is a vile form of hypocrisy.
The Bible refers to it, as irreprehensible.
(Psalm 94:20, 21) 20Can a throne of corruption be allied with you While it is framing trouble in the name of the law? 21They make vicious attacks on the righteous one And condemn the innocent one to death.

What other cases do we know of, where this hypocrisy is implimented?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Hypocracy:

People claim to be Religious and follow their Scripture, which says "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (all Scriptures contain this verse or something similar). And in the same breath they kill, in the name of the same Religion or in the name of God

Framing trouble by decree: is that not what many lawyers do nowadays (even what they are paid for). Lawyer seems to be liar and manipulator when it comes to truth. Making right what is wrong and v.v. Politicians and Presidents and rulers all seem to do it nowadays, even more than ever it seems to me
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
What spiritual lessen does this teach you to make you a better person in Christ?
Why does there have to be a lesson in it for me, in my relationship with God and Christ? Not everything does that.
For example, there are many topics on RF which I take part in - biology ; cosmology ; philosophy ; etc. Why does everything i discuss have to contain a lesson for me, in making me a better person?
Is this the reason for the forums?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Hypocracy:

People claim to be Religious and follow their Scripture, which says "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (all Scriptures contain this verse or something similar). And in the same breath they kill, in the name of the same Religion or in the name of God
Yes they make that claim, and yes, they are religious... doesn't mean the religion is any good ;), but yes, they do claim to be killing in the name their god, and religion, but isn't that a lie. Although, it might be in the name of their religion. :)

Framing trouble by decree: is that not what many lawyers do nowadays (even what they are paid for). Lawyer seems to be liar and manipulator when it comes to truth. Making right what is wrong and v.v. Politicians and Presidents and rulers all seem to do it nowadays, even more than ever it seems to me
When I watch some lawyers go at a witness, and try to manipulate their words by their sly questions, it's hard not to see that they are trying to frame trouble by use of law.

They and politicians... and what about the media? ;)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Why does there have to be a lesson in it for me, in my relationship with God and Christ? Not everything does that.
For example, there are many topics on RF which I take part in - biology ; cosmology ; philosophy ; etc. Why does everything i discuss have to contain a lesson for me, in making me a better person?
Is this the reason for the forums?

I'm speaking of lessons from god related to the OP not RF.

What about those biblical verses help you in your walk in Christ?

There are only some things you learn from god and not others?
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Why does there have to be a lesson in it for me, in my relationship with God and Christ? Not everything does that.
For example, there are many topics on RF which I take part in - biology ; cosmology ; philosophy ; etc. Why does everything i discuss have to contain a lesson for me, in making me a better person?
Is this the reason for the forums?
I would say there is a spiritual lesson.
We see the hypocrisy of others and weigh it against the Lord, and determine how we want to act.
We can’t understand goodness, unless we also experience evil.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I'm speaking of lessons from god related to the OP not RF.

What about those biblical verses help you in your walk in Christ?

There are only some things you learn from god and not others?
Oh. Do you mean the first line... I was reading matthew 22?
Are you trying to find out how reading Matthew has helped me in my spiritual life?
How do you want it... In a book? :D
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Yes they make that claim, and yes, they are religious... doesn't mean the religion is any good ;), but yes, they do claim to be killing in the name their god, and religion, but isn't that a lie. Although, it might be in the name of their religion. :)
Seems a lie to me. I guess you mean here "it might be (not a lie) in the name of their religion?" (or at least probably how they interpret it)

When I watch some lawyers go at a witness, and try to manipulate their words by their sly questions, it's hard not to see that they are trying to frame trouble by use of law.

They and politicians... and what about the media? ;)
Yes, then you have the whole circus with clowns together. I have seen plenty of that this year with covid, and I expect it to get worse even
 
Last edited:

nPeace

Veteran Member
I would say there is a spiritual lesson.
We see the hypocrisy of others and weigh it against the Lord, and determine how we want to act.
We can’t understand goodness, unless we also experience evil.
Well, yes, we can see hypocrisy in what others do, but how would we know it's hypocrisy, if we don't know goodness?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Seems a lie to me. I guess you mean here "it might be (not a lie) in the name of their religion?"


Yes, then you have the whole circus with clowns together. I have seen plenty if that this year with covid, and I expect it to get worse even
I can live with that. :)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Oh. Do you mean the first line... I was reading matthew 22?
Are you trying to find out how reading Matthew has helped me in my spiritual life?
How do you want it... In a book? :D

Your reference to hypocrites:

These wicked men - hypocrites, Jesus called them - brought with them political supporters of Herod, and they put a question to him. Their objective was clear. They were hoping for him to say something in the presence of the party followers of Herod, so that they could find something criminal against him.
Isn't that wicked.

Since this is from god, how does it help you?
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Well, yes, we can see hypocrisy in what others do, but how would we know it's hypocrisy, if we don't know goodness?
Very good question.
Thinking back through my experiences, I think that I would get a “red flag” moment at certain times, which would lead me to read the Word to seek guidance, I guess, or clarification to determine what was bothering me.

To answer your question, I would say the path to “goodness” will be discovered in the Word. You are correct. But then, what raised the flag in my mind, so that I was led to the Word?

I don’t think I can answer that one.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
These wicked men - hypocrites, Jesus called them - brought with them political supporters of Herod, and they put a question to him. Their objective was clear. They were hoping for him to say something in the presence of the party followers of Herod, so that they could find something criminal against him.
Isn't that wicked.
Not necessarily, you might question a suspected terrorist in the presence of the law to check their compliance with the law.

It is only wicked to check compliance against an unjust law in my opinion.

Although these days Jesus could simply plead the fifth in such a situation.

In my opinion.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Your reference to hypocrites:

These wicked men - hypocrites, Jesus called them - brought with them political supporters of Herod, and they put a question to him. Their objective was clear. They were hoping for him to say something in the presence of the party followers of Herod, so that they could find something criminal against him.
Isn't that wicked.

Since this is from god, how does it help you?
Bear with me. I am trying to understand.
Are you asking how Jesus calling them hypocrite benefit me in my relationship with God?
How does it help me that God thinks of people as hypocrite?

I think that's easy to answer.
Those who follow such an example are not approved by God. Therefore, don't follow such examples if you want God's approval.
Furthermore, be on guard against those who slyly try to corner you, or get you in trouble. In other words, as Jesus said, “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them."

I hope I answered the question. :)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Not necessarily, you might question a suspected terrorist in the presence of the law to check their compliance with the law.

It is only wicked to check compliance against an unjust law in my opinion.

Although these days Jesus could simply plead the fifth in such a situation.

In my opinion.
Remember, this is not about asking sincere questions. I hope you did not miss that in the context of the OP, :)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Very good question.
Thinking back through my experiences, I think that I would get a “red flag” moment at certain times, which would lead me to read the Word to seek guidance, I guess, or clarification to determine what was bothering me.

To answer your question, I would say the path to “goodness” will be discovered in the Word. You are correct. But then, what raised the flag in my mind, so that I was led to the Word?

I don’t think I can answer that one.
Appreciate your honesty, thanks. :)
 
Top