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Hypocrites

nPeace

Veteran Member
Like your examples in the OP, it's an invented rule that is used to condemn others.

(Edit: IMO)
Let me see if I can pick my way into what you are saying.
You are saying that JWs invented a rule. Then they used that rule to condemn those who break the rule.
Did I get it, exactly?
What's the rule they invented?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Bear with me. I am trying to understand.
Are you asking how Jesus calling them hypocrite benefit me in my relationship with God?
How does it help me that God thinks of people as hypocrite?

Yes. When I think of spiritual teachings regardless the religion, I think of their reading words and getting wisdom about things that would better their lives. Things that will give them lessons to be a better person. Any teaching that has judgement, death, and things like that in the context of justice and good I avoid. Yet, people believe in these things-what are they learning from it?

I think that's easy to answer.
Those who follow such an example are not approved by God. Therefore, don't follow such examples if you want God's approval.

Furthermore, be on guard against those who slyly try to corner you, or get you in trouble. In other words, as Jesus said, “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them."

I hope I answered the question

How does this help you, though?

I mean when I think of spiritual teachings I don't see the point being judging others and "watching" the sheep versus the wolves. There's no separation.

How does being on guard against those who are sly try to corner you... and how does knowing there are false prophets and wolves help you know christ?

I can't imagine anyone's spiritual journey be based on this.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Yes.


Their prohibition on blood transfusions.
Thou shall not take blood transfusion. ;)
Let me see if there are others.
  1. Thou shall not have anal and or oral sex... not even with your wife. It is unclean.
  2. Thou shall not watch pornography - soft, hard, extreme, or beyond.
  3. Thou shall not smoke cigars, or take any recreational drugs.
  4. Thou shall not be entertained by graphic violence, whether in video games, sports, or movie.
  5. Thou shall not be entertained by sexual immorality, not excluding those in popular soap operas.
  6. Thou shall no be entertained by movies featuring, vampires, ghosts, etc.

I hope I didn't miss any, but if I did, you can extend the list.
Can I add these to the list of rules JWs invented?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Yes. When I think of spiritual teachings regardless the religion, I think of their reading words and getting wisdom about things that would better their lives. Things that will give them lessons to be a better person. Any teaching that has judgement, death, and things like that in the context of justice and good I avoid. Yet, people believe in these things-what are they learning from it?
What we learn from it, is God's feelings and thoughts on matters. We learn about God. We learn God's mind.
How that benefits us, is that we can then imitate God's way - have the mind of Christ, which after all, is what spirituality is.
Thus pleasing our father in heaven, and having his approval.
Not only having God's approval - which is most important to those of us who love the father, and appreciate having a relationship with him, but it allows us to have a joy and peace that many today long for... but they can't find... love as well, which eludes this world, imo.

How does this help you, though?

I mean when I think of spiritual teachings I don't see the point being judging others and "watching" the sheep versus the wolves. There's no separation.

How does being on guard against those who are sly try to corner you... and how does knowing there are false prophets and wolves help you know christ?

I can't imagine anyone's spiritual journey be based on this.
According to the Bible, God is the supreme judge.
As a God of justice, he exercises that in a fair, and loving way... according to the Bible.

I have experienced the truthfulness of God's word which say, "Jehovah is teaching us to benefit ourselves. So that listening to God serves as a protection, and makes us wise for salvation.
In fact, one king who discovered this, said that God makes us wiser than the teachers in this world.
Wisdom is a protection, more than money is.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What we learn from it, is God's feelings and thoughts on matters. We learn about God. We learn God's mind.
How that benefits us, is that we can then imitate God's way - have the mind of Christ, which after all, is what spirituality is.
Thus pleasing our father in heaven, and having his approval.
Not only having God's approval - which is most important to those of us who love the father, and appreciate having a relationship with him, but it allows us to have a joy and peace that many today long for... but they can't find... love as well, which eludes this world, imo.

God's feelings and thoughts that some people are hypocrites is something you want to identify with to have the mind of christ? To see people as hypocrites and wolves?

According to the Bible, God is the supreme judge.
As a God of justice, he exercises that in a fair, and loving way... according to the Bible.

I have experienced the truthfulness of God's word which say, "Jehovah is teaching us to benefit ourselves. So that listening to God serves as a protection, and makes us wise for salvation.
In fact, one king who discovered this, said that God makes us wiser than the teachers in this world.
Wisdom is a protection, more than money is.

How is calling someone a hypocrite and a wolves a loving exercise of justice?

Where is the love in that judgement and why do you (if you do) not judge others from a human perspective (say judge their character) but be fine with judging their spirituality (who they are)?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
These wicked men - hypocrites, Jesus called them - brought with them political supporters of Herod, and they put a question to him. Their objective was clear. They were hoping for him to say something in the presence of the party followers of Herod, so that they could find something criminal against him.
Isn't that wicked.
Yes, that's wicked, trying to frame someone. Happens a lot, also in USA, even police uses that tactic, maybe even learned it from the Bible; that would be really wicked

Since this is from god, how does it help you
Not do so myself
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Not necessarily, you might question a suspected terrorist in the presence of the law to check their compliance with the law.

It is only wicked to check compliance against an unjust law in my opinion.
Jesus was a man of God, not a terrorist, so it still is wicked. As wicked as Russians torturing Jehova Witnesses or Bahai's being tortured in Middle East or anyone being treated bad for his (non) faith

It only proves that those people who torture behave demonic
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was reading Matthew 22.
In verses 15-17, the religious leaders conspired on how they could "frame trouble by decree" against something Jesus says.

They obviously did not know the man they were dealing with.
The scriptures say, (Matthew 22:18-22) But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said: “Why do you put me to the test, hypocrites?
Show me the tax coin.” They brought him a denarius. He said to them: “Whose image and inscription is this?” They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” When they heard that, they were amazed, and they left him and went away.
Does this sort of thing still happen today? Are there hypocrites today, who resort to such wickedness?

These wicked men - hypocrites, Jesus called them - brought with them political supporters of Herod, and they put a question to him. Their objective was clear. They were hoping for him to say something in the presence of the party followers of Herod, so that they could find something criminal against him.
Isn't that wicked.
I'm sure persons here, might be able to refer to some real life cases. Please share.

I have a few in mind that are identical.
1) (1916-1918)
Martin Thomas Manton - Wikipedia
Manton was nominated by President Woodrow Wilson on August 15, 1916, to a seat on the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York vacated by Judge Charles Merrill Hough. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on August 23, 1916, and received his commission the same day. In 1918, he had eight officials of the Watch Tower Society railroaded into prison on trumped-up charges of sedition. But these officials were released after nine months and were later exonerated. U.S. federal judge Martin T. Manton, who had kept these Bible Students in prison by refusing bail, was later decorated by Pope Pius XI, being made a “knight of the order of St. Gregory the Great.” However, his glory was short-lived, for in 1939 he was sentenced to two years in prison and a heavy fine. Why? Because he was found guilty of selling six court decisions for a total of $186,000 in bribes! His service terminated on March 22, 1918, due to his elevation to the Second Circuit.
His service terminated on February 7, 1939, due to his resignation [under pressure of investigations].
Manton was acquitted of bribery, but convicted of conspiracy to obstruct justice. He served 19 months in federal prison.

Manton was a prominent Catholic in New York. The street fronting Archbishop Molloy High School and an adjacent playground in Briarwood, Queens, bears his name.
2) (2017-2021)
'We Liked to Sing. Now We Can Only Whisper.' How Russia Is Stepping Up Its Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses
Russia’s justice ministry calls the group, which has grown its membership here to 170,000, a threat to public order. They were banned as “extremist” in Russia in 2017, putting them in the same ranks as neo-Nazis. A spokesperson for the conservative Russian Orthodox Church, which has grown in influence under Putin, has said Jehovah’s Witnesses manipulate people’s consciousness and “can not be called Christians.”
Once a source of support for the tsars, the resurgent Orthodox church has now become a pillar of Putin’s rule, which Patriarch Kirill has described as a “miracle of God,” and of Russian influence abroad. The state gives tens of millions of dollars to the church each year, and the military is building a 300-foot-tall Orthodox cathedral with steps made of melted down Nazi tanks at a patriotic park outside Moscow
.


What was Putin - the Russian president's response to a question about the ban? Read the article. His response reveals what's behind it.

Framing trouble by decree is a long used strategy by the wicked.
(1 Kings 21:10) And have two good-for-nothing men sit in front of him and testify against him, saying, ‘You have cursed God and the king!’ Then bring him out and stone him to death.”
(Psalm 58:2) Instead, you devise unrighteousness in your heart, And your hands dispense violence in the land.
(Isaiah 10:1) Woe to those who enact harmful regulations, Who constantly draft oppressive decrees,
(Daniel 3:5) that when you hear the sound of the horn, pipe, zither, triangular harp, stringed instrument, bagpipe, and all the other musical instruments, you must fall down and worship the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up.
(Daniel 6:7) All the royal officials, prefects, satraps, high royal officers, and governors have consulted together to establish a royal decree and to enforce a ban, that for 30 days whoever makes a petition to any god or man except to you, O king, should be thrown into the lions’ pit.
(Acts 5:28) and said: “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.”

Framing trouble by decree is a vile form of hypocrisy.
The Bible refers to it, as irreprehensible.
(Psalm 94:20, 21) 20Can a throne of corruption be allied with you While it is framing trouble in the name of the law? 21They make vicious attacks on the righteous one And condemn the innocent one to death.

What other cases do we know of, where this hypocrisy is implimented?
Of course, who's the hypocrite in Matthew 22, and who isn't, is very much a matter of your presuppositions.

Jesus' message is not Jewish orthodoxy. Why would it be hypocritical of the Pharisees to defend orthodoxy at Jesus' expense?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Thou shall not have anal and or oral sex... not even with your wife. It is unclean.
There are all kinds of bacteria, they seem to love it, as do dogs. Some people (I have seen on RF) claim human is animal. So, then this habit is not totally weird, as animals do it too. But it's not my thing

I guess you mean with unclean that it easily spreads diseases. I remember from my time in India that Hepatitis is related to feces
Hepatitis A (HAV) is caused by a virus found in feces (****). Hepatitis A is transmitted through the fecal-oral route, which means you have ingested or consumed infected feces. The most common way this happens is through swallowing contaminated food or water.

So, it seems, that from a scientific POV you do have a point here, it has potential to spread diseases
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
Thou shall not take blood transfusion. ;)
Let me see if there are others.
  1. Thou shall not have anal and or oral sex... not even with your wife. It is unclean.
  2. Thou shall not watch pornography - soft, hard, extreme, or beyond.
  3. Thou shall not smoke cigars, or take any recreational drugs.
  4. Thou shall not be entertained by graphic violence, whether in video games, sports, or movie.
  5. Thou shall not be entertained by sexual immorality, not excluding those in popular soap operas.
  6. Thou shall no be entertained by movies featuring, vampires, ghosts, etc.

I hope I didn't miss any, but if I did, you can extend the list.
Can I add these to the list of rules JWs invented?
Some might add "thou shall not refuse covid vaccination", though others might argue the exact opposite. And both will have good arguments, I don't doubt.

Seems to me it's usually the best to let people choose for themselves, about decisions about their own bodies, esp. blood transfusions and vaccinations. And in my country that's also the Law.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
God's feelings and thoughts that some people are hypocrites is something you want to identify with to have the mind of christ? To see people as hypocrites and wolves?
It's not a case of wanting to identify with something.
It's rather a case of appreciating someone for who they are, and showing it. If that identifies one with it, that's okay.
For example, we don't want to identify with how someone views injustice in order to have a sense of love of goodness.
We appreciate the person who has a love for goodness, and a hatred of injustice.
We are happy to be in the company of that one, and glad we came to know that the person loves justice, because that appeals to us, and we want to have a close relationship with such a person.

We don't feel that way towards one who loves injustice and wickedly treats others unfairly.
In fact, in choosing a mate, people usually want to learn as much as they can about, the one they hope to live with for the rest of their life. Hardly would anyone honest, who appreciates qualities such as justice and fairness, want to marry someone who reveals that they love to cheat, and rob people, and treat others unfairly.

Just replace injustice with hypocrisy. There is no difference in the situation.
Knowing God's mind - his qualities, ways, thoughts - makes us appreciative of him, and as these qualities appeal to us, we want to draw close to him.
Because he loves the good and hates the bad, we know he won't be hypocritical.
Knowing how he feels about hypocrisy makes us want to avoid it, and imitate him.

How is calling someone a hypocrite and a wolves a loving exercise of justice?
How is calling someone a hypocrite and a wolf not a loving exercise of justice?
Of course, your answer and my answer may differ, but what makes your answer correct and mine incorrect? What makes my answer correct, and yours incorrect? Who decides that?
If you and I decide, then is there any problem?

I see justice different to you because justice is not determined by "vessels of clay". Justice is determined by the "potter" - the maker... in my view.
My decisions are based on God's instructions, since to me, he is the supreme authority.
Man may choose to go against that, and decide his own standards, but that's his choice - his privilege, but that has nothing to do with my choice.

God's view of justice involves reprimanding and reproving, and for good reasons, imo.
(1 Timothy 5:20) Reprove before all onlookers those who practice sin, as a warning to the rest.
(Titus 1:9) holding firmly to the faithful word as respects his art of teaching, so that he may be able both to encourage by the teaching that is wholesome and to reprove those who contradict.
(Titus 1:13) This witness is true. For this very reason, keep on reproving them with severity so that they may be healthy in the faith,
(Titus 2:15) Keep on speaking these things and exhorting and reproving with full authority. Do not let anyone look down on you.
(2 Timothy 4:2-5) 2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

I hope you see where justice is exercised in those verses.
Notice to whom Jesus words were directed - Jewish religious leaders.
These were a part of the nation, and worship, which Jesus was born into.
So Jesus' words of reproof served as a warning to the rest. They reproved those who contradicted.
Reproving them with severity served to keep some healthy in the faith Jesus exhorting and reproving with full authority, because he had that authority from his father, and he was exercising it.
Reproving and reprimanding was actually a condemnation of their action to deviate from the truth, to have their ears tickled.
It may have thus saved the lives of some who were listening.

Moreover, those who heard Jesus' cutting words against people they already were aware, were corrupt, benefitted in a number of ways.
They saw that
1) Jesus did not tolerate their corruption, and their hypocritical view of it. Thus they saw that Jesus hated hypocrisy, and that appeal would have drawn them even closer to him, and saved their life.
2) Jesus boldly stood up to these men, and spoke with authority. Thus, they would have had more faith in his claim as messiah, and thus more accept him, leading to the potential to becoming his disciples.
3) Jesus exposed the hypocrites for what they were. Thus making it clear to all, that his father is not like that, and does not approve of it. Thus, the people would have learned a truth about God.​

Consider the account at 1 Kings 3:16-28
Those around king Solomon, who heard him say “Bring me a sword. ... Cut the living child in two, and give half to one woman and half to the other.”, their eyes probably widened in disbelief. What???
However, after the real mother stepped forward pleading... “Please, my lord! You should give her the living child! By no means put him to death!” While the other woman was saying... "Go ahead."
They saw the wisdom, and the justice. Verse 28 says... "So all Israel heard about the judgment that the king had handed down, and they were in awe of the king, for they saw that the wisdom of God was with him to execute justice."

One reference defines justice this way... Justice - The maintenance or administration of what is right in a fair and impartial way and according to a standard.
What standard does the world have, to maintain a standard of morality?
It's such a divided system with so many contradicting and changing standards, that hardly can it be said that there is a standard... imo.

Where is the love in that judgement and why do you (if you do) not judge others from a human perspective (say judge their character) but be fine with judging their spirituality (who they are)?
I was reading something this morning that I think answers these questions.
See here.

I don't understand what you mean by "judge others from a human perspective (say judge their character) but be fine with judging their spirituality (who they are)".
However, i will say what I believe. 1) I am not a judge of persons (maybe you call it judging, but you will have to explain what that involves). 2) I make judgments based on knowledge. For example, if I see someone about to drink gramoxone, I'll say to them, "That's poison. It will kill you." Is that a judgment? Is that judging? You tell me.
Similarly, based on my knowledge of anything - scripture or otherwise, I will tell a person what I know
knowledge
noun
1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.
To illustrate. I have knowledge of bush fires. I learn that a fire has broken out North of a village. I see the smoke. As the fire races toward the village, I drive like a madman to warn the inhabitants. When I get there, I tell them what I know. Is that love? You tell me.
When it comes to spiritual matters, should I act differently because people don't believe? Is that love? You tell me.
In the village, some may not believe me. They may think, "Who is this crazy fellow, coming in my village talking nonsense." For whatever reason, they may not want to hear me. That's on them. I did my part. I exercised justice, and showed love for my neighbor. I am not going to force them to believe me. I just get in my vehicle, after trying to reason with them, and save my bacon. If some want to go with me, I'll try to squeeze them into the vehicle. Some can cling to the hood, if that will help... and I am out o' there.

That's true love, and justice, in my view.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Some might add "thou shall not refuse covid vaccination", though others might argue the exact opposite. And both will have good arguments, I don't doubt.

Seems to me it's usually the best to let people choose for themselves, about decisions about their own bodies, esp. blood transfusions and vaccinations. And in my country that's also the Law.
I understand, but I don't want to get sidetracked from the OP. @9-10ths_Penguin is making an argument in line with the OP. However, he is making the claim that JWs are hypocrites who frame trouble by decree, or law, to "criminalize" the innocent.

He hasn't responded to my list, so it seems he is more interested in prohibiting receiving blood transfusions.
So I will address that.

@9-10ths_Penguin, let's for now, forego the fact that these rules were not invented, as this can lead into another topic, and let's for arguments sake say they did invent them.

Did JWs frame a decree in such a way, as to condemn the innocent? We can easily say no, for these reasons.
1) The JWs use the Bible as their guide on Christian living. This involves using Bible principles and commands to instruct. All of JWs are aware of those decrees.
2) The JWs use the Bible in their ministry. All are invited to examine both their Bible, and the "decrees" or teachings of JWs.
3) The JWs conduct free home Bible studies with persons who show interest, in learning what the Bible teaches (A Bible study can take months, or years to complete). No one is forced to accept any of what they are taught, nor accept it. They are free to say "NO" to these "decrees" or teachings.
4) The JWs make disciples of people - that is, they help people who want to, become a follower of Christ. That involves obeying what Jesus commanded - including the command to preach the good news in their communities, and to the most distant parts of the earth.
5) The JWs baptize people - that is, all who make a personal dedication to God, in their heart, to follow and obey all the requirements of God, as outlined in his word the Bible, which the "decrees" or teachings of JWs are in line with, show publicly that they now belong to God, and are his witnesses.

The one making that dedication agrees with all the decrees, which they have studied for the past six months or years, and makes a vow that these decrees are what they will live by, regardless of opposition by family, friends, or the world in general. It is a personal decision or choice.

In summary, there is no JWs that got baptized without the knowledge of all the above "decrees", who did not say, "I agree!", in a loud clear voice, on the day of their baptism.

The way I understand, frame trouble by decree, is that the decree is writen up by people who are opposed to persons or groups who will not, and have not agreed to their policies.

For example, one of the cases i quoted earlier.
(Daniel 6:7) All the royal officials, prefects, satraps, high royal officers, and governors have consulted together to establish a royal decree and to enforce a ban, that for 30 days whoever makes a petition to any god or man except to you, O king, should be thrown into the lions’ pit.

Daniel was doing the opposite of what they schemed to have the king decree. The wicked hypocrites knew this. They knew that Daniel was not about to stop serving his God, with constancy, and they therefore slyly manipulated the king into writing the decree, and signing it.
No doubt this is what powerful men or religious organizations do... and are doing.

It cannot be said that JWs do this... Oh wait.
We actually know that the Atheist and false religion are doing the opposite to these decrees, so we wrote it for them, not the JWs who accept it. So that the innocent Atheists and religious people would be condemned... by us. Are you in torments now? :D You should be? :D:D:D

If you claim that is what we did, then everyone of us is guilty, according to that logic. Just telling me, that something is not right, or giving me your view on what you think should be or should not be done, would be framing trouble by degree.
However, we don't want to distort a phrase just to play "Devil's advocate", do we. ;)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
So, v.v. hypocrisy is also not all bad; can help us see non-hypocrisy
Not sure I follow you.

Of course, who's the hypocrite in Matthew 22, and who isn't, is very much a matter of your presuppositions.

Jesus' message is not Jewish orthodoxy. Why would it be hypocritical of the Pharisees to defend orthodoxy at Jesus' expense?
The OP is discussing people who knowingly, try to criminalize an innocent person. Knowingly.

Whether Jesus was right or the Jews were, is not the topic of this thread. It is dealing specifically with framing trouble by law, or decree. Please note the context of the OP.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
We are all human's.

Men in a group agree with just human thesis said by human consciousness living in Christ heavens.

They claim maths a framework of information gives all answers and not their consciousness.

Yet conscious and image heavenly recording gave our brothers science advice about conversion inside the heavens to two bodies. It was not maths or science.

Their one purpose sun attack. Satan's hell one God science.

The two changed bodies heavens owning colder gases than stone. And stone.

One changed two. Science the answer. The framework of human science. The sun destroying earths God.

Stone as a form ended in O zero space pressure.

Stone never owned a heavens the volcanic gas had.

Nuclear. Sun. God. Stone just planet earth conditions.

Earth however is not any sun. Earths heavens gases alight not of stone.

Light constant is an idea yet it is held in the vacuum.

Science says I learn. I want.

Science never owned any light constant.

Maths pressure zero from stone is human science.

Never included the earth's heavens existing whatsoever.

As their answer light heavens burning gas still allowed stone just to exist as stone. Natural light conditions.

Stone was not being converted.

They wanted science by sun history so went about setting earths heavens alight themselves to give their maths answer.

Stephen Hawking advice a man a human a sacrificed human a scientist.

In the beginning there was nothing.

Earth never owned a heavens first.

Yet a human says without the heavens I am nothing also.

Yes says Jesus why I was sacrificed as the heavens is not your maths and answer.

How frustrating it is talking to non intelligent brothers who lie coercively just to practice satanism.

Maths says science gives the answer.

So if you asked science in the beginning maths an answer created form did it?

As Mr know it all says he has the answer first and says it's maths.

Yet no human no belief and no experiments using maths with machines.

His God his beginnings lying the whole time is machines and machine reactions.

As creation natural already existed.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Why does there have to be a lesson in it for me, in my relationship with God and Christ? Not everything does that.
For example, there are many topics on RF which I take part in - biology ; cosmology ; philosophy ; etc. Why does everything i discuss have to contain a lesson for me, in making me a better person?
Is this the reason for the forums?
The only useful thing about your faith to those without one is that it may make you an easier person to live with on this earth. So religion making you "better" is beneficial for them. Religion telling you about hypocrites is not. Hypocrites are friends of disbelievers and the latter would prefer the former went undetected.
 
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