I’m an American and I’m sad.

[an anarchist]

Really?

Then all those vets with the plates , vfw membership, and flags are obviously deranged.

Let me know when you start to see things more realistically here.

There are many fine programs for those suffering from shell shock and disability.

VFW free health services for life.

Wounded Warriors, a stellar organization taking care of our disabled vets with dignity and respect.

I think the point trying to be made was this; Veterans should not be treated as heroes, rather, as tragic victims of war.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think the point trying to be made was this; Veterans should not be treated as heroes, rather, as tragic victims of war.

Ic.

What's wrong with both then?

As we do with most people that have risky occupations?

 

[Yazata]

We lost the war.

In Afghanistan? Yes we did, in a sense.

Were we the good guys?

Yes, in a perhaps misguided way.

There was (and continues to be) this idea that the United States stands for something that the rest of the world wants. Freedom, liberty, democracy, all that good stuff. And there's this idea that if we can just free foreign peoples from local tyrannies, then they will eagerly grasp those things.

So we barge into places like Iraq and Afghanistan, overthrow the local tyrants and expect the locals to seize the opportunity and establish a strong functioning democracy. We think that we are nation building, that it's a good thing and that the locals will welcome it.

Except over and over again, they don't.

The locals just divide up according to their ethnic, religious or political divisions and set about settling scores and trying to suppress rivals. And then everything falls apart and it's survival-of-the-fittest time.

So yes, we were the 'good guys' in that our motivations were good.

We were even the 'good guys' in that we gave Afghanistan a twenty year chance to make something more of themselves.

But the whole effort was flawed from the very beginning by the unrealistic "nation-building" ideology.

 

[an anarchist]

Ic.

What's wrong with both then?

As we do with most people that have risky occupations?

I think the issue comes from this; making heroes out of the victims only serves to feed the cycle of war. If they weren’t treated as heroes, and solely victims, maybe many lives would be saved. Maybe people would reconsider joining. The question is, are we the good guys? If not, then our troops, could they be heroes based solely on their intentions?

 

[oldbadger]

I think the point trying to be made was this; Veterans should not be treated as heroes, rather, as tragic victims of war.

But many were.... heroes.
None of them would want your pity, just some respect.

 

[Friend of Mara]

But many were.... heroes.
None of them would want your pity, just some respect.

Many are heroes. Because they did heroic things to save their comrades. But the war itself isn't a noble one. Now I am not drawing a comparison to the Nazi's and US soldiers by any means but with this logic it can be argued there were many Nazi soldiers who were "heroes". Respect the soldiers but lets not worship the military especially when it isn't worth being worshiped.

 

[oldbadger]

Many are heroes. Because they did heroic things to save their comrades. But the war itself isn't a noble one. Now I am not drawing a comparison to the Nazi's and US soldiers by any means but with this logic it can be argued there were many Nazi soldiers who were "heroes". Respect the soldiers but lets not worship the military especially when it isn't worth being worshiped.

Yes. Exactly!
And that is how one fighter pilot might salute an enemy pilot. They acknowledged that each was a warrior and no more.
When soldiers sign up to serve their countries they follow orders. If the people don't want that then they should vote for a leader who will disband the military.

 

[Kooky]

So yes, we were the 'good guys' in that our motivations were good.

In that case, the Taliban are also the "good guys", since they clearly believe that they are establishing a morally superior form of government blessed by their God.

 

[Kooky]

Yes. Exactly!
And that is how one fighter pilot might salute an enemy pilot. They acknowledged that each was a warrior and no more.
When soldiers sign up to serve their countries they follow orders. If the people don't want that then they should vote for a leader who will disband the military.

Exactly. Let us acknowledge that the war crimes and human rights violations committed by US military men were not their responsibility, but those of their superiors, and charge those superiors accordingly.

I'm just kidding, of course, the US not only has never actually prosecuted any member of its military for the war crimes they committed, but has a law on the books that literally forbids the government to hand them over to the proper authorities.

 

[oldbadger]

Exactly. Let us acknowledge that the war crimes and human rights violations committed by US military men were not their responsibility, but those of their superiors, and charge those superiors accordingly.

I'm just kidding, of course, the US not only has never actually prosecuted any member of its military for the war crimes they committed, but has a law on the books that literally forbids the government to hand them over to the proper authorities.

If you don't believe in a navy, air force or army you'll just have to wait until a majority, a very large majority of the people, wish to disband it.
The concept of people sending others in to conflicts and then later deciding if those others did bad things in their name....is a bit smelly.

 

[Kooky]

If you don't believe in a navy, air force or army you'll just have to wait until a majority, a very large majority of the people, wish to disband it.
The concept of people sending others in to conflicts and then later deciding if those others did bad things in their name....is a bit smelly.

I'm not American, and I am in fact all in favor of disbanding all military organizations everywhere.
Militarism, and the authoritarian practices it brings into all aspects of governance, is one of the greatest banes of modern civilization in my opinion.

 

[Valjean]

Exactly. Let us acknowledge that the war crimes and human rights violations committed by US military men were not their responsibility, but those of their superiors, and charge those superiors accordingly.

So people are not personally responsible for their actions, as long as they've abdicated moral responsibility to another. If someone else tells them to do something bad, that person takes the sin upon himself, and the actual perpetrator is blameless.

I'm just kidding, of course, the US not only has never actually prosecuted any member of its military for the war crimes they committed, but has a law on the books that literally forbids the government to hand them over to the proper authorities.

American soldiers have been charged, prosecuted and sometimes convicted ever since the Phillipine invasion.
The problem is, the military tries desperately to hush war crimes up, and only acknowledges 'indiscretions' or prosecutes when something becomes a public scandal. Convictions are usually quietly overturned after the heat is off.

United States war crimes - Wikipedia

 

[Valjean]

If you don't believe in a navy, air force or army you'll just have to wait until a majority, a very large majority of the people, wish to disband it.
The concept of people sending others in to conflicts and then later deciding if those others did bad things in their name....is a bit smelly.

Maybe we'd do better with just a Coast Guard and National Guard. There is no existential threat to the United States. Great Powers can't even successfully invade weak nations like Vietnam or Afghanistan, when the people there oppose occupation.

It's our expeditionary adventurism that generates any threats, ill will or opposition to the US. Any enemies we have are created by the military, itself.

 

[Valjean]

I think the point trying to be made was this; Veterans should not be treated as heroes, rather, as tragic victims of war.

But they're detested by God himself. They have done monstrous evil and harmed the general prosperity of the country.
In what way are they heros?

 

[oldbadger]

I'm not American, and I am in fact all in favor of disbanding all military organizations everywhere.
Militarism, and the authoritarian practices it brings into all aspects of governance, is one of the greatest banes of modern civilization in my opinion.

That was obvious.
I'm guessing that you don't want a police force either.

So what do you want?
What do you do for work?
I'm retired since 2014

 

[oldbadger]

Maybe we'd do better with just a Coast Guard and National Guard. There is no existential threat to the United States. Great Powers can't even successfully invade weak nations like Vietnam or Afghanistan, when the people there oppose occupation.

It's our expeditionary adventurism that generates any threats, ill will or opposition to the US. Any enemies we have are created by the military, itself.

Valjean........ that's what I think we should do in the UK. True.
We are a little country which spends all its pocket money on bloody great aircraft carriers, etc and trying to stay in the 'World Wargames Club'.

What we need is a proper coastguard, a brilliant rescue helicopter service, a home security army, navy and airforce and a much better police force. There will always be places in the World which need policing but where the vast majority of a country's population want a government like Islamic Shariah we should never have gone anywhere near the place, in my opinion. Our PM Tony Blair chucked our forces at Iraq, Afghanistan etc.... Oh dear.

 

[Friend of Mara]

American soldiers have been charged, prosecuted and sometimes convicted ever since the Phillipine invasion.
The problem is, the military tries desperately to hush war crimes up, and only acknowledges 'indiscretions' or prosecutes when something becomes a public scandal. Convictions are usually quietly overturned after the heat is off.

United States war crimes - Wikipedia

Don't even get me started on the thousands of women who were raped or sexually abused in some way and then THEY get put through a court marshal because of it.

 

[Kooky]

That was obvious.
I'm guessing that you don't want a police force either.

So what do you want?

Preferably, a system of consensual government backed by working class support.

Also, a pony.

What do you do for work?
I'm retired since 2014

I get paid by my country to hold classes for migrants and the unemployed.

 

[Revoltingest]

Maybe we'd do better with just a Coast Guard and National Guard. There is no existential threat to the United States. Great Powers can't even successfully invade weak nations like Vietnam or Afghanistan, when the people there oppose occupation.

It's our expeditionary adventurism that generates any threats, ill will or opposition to the US. Any enemies we have are created by the military, itself.

It seems that you might be one of the few people to
understand how I can be a felonious draft evader,
& also a military weapon design engineer.
It always made obvious sense to me.
I have one jarhead friend who understood too.

 

[oldbadger]

Preferably, a system of consensual government backed by working class support.

Also, a pony.


I get paid by my country to hold classes for migrants and the unemployed.

Ponies can be dangerous, Kooky. How about a bike....they don't bite?!