I am a non-believer and have some questions

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I have stated before that I am a non-believer in Christianity and other religions that pose the risk of going to hell if you do not believe and serve their God. I am here to debate the moral nature of Christianity and those other religions as well as the validity of such religions.

I am in an undecided mindset leaning a bit towards the idea that such religions are fear mongering nonsense, but am not entirely sure which is why I wish to have a debate of my own here. I have read into all the claimed evidence and debates by skeptics and believers and my mindset is an honest, open, undecided mindset. I have truly and honestly tried my best here, but my mindset has to remain undecided and this is an honest mindset I am having here.

Christians, for example, would tell me that is bull because they would claim that I am in denial and only being the fool lying to myself. Now this is an issue that cannot be debated because this is a matter of personal subjective experience. I am in my own mind and only I would know if I were lying to myself or not.

I know that I am not lying to myself. My lack of conviction in Christianity and those other religions is genuine. If, let's pretend, the Christian God were real, then he should understand this and should get me out of hell if I were to go there.

He should of understood that I would of lived my life for him and dedicated my life to him if I believed he were real. Furthermore, if he loves and cares about me so much, then that love and compassion should compel him to try and convince me time and time again through signs and such to try and save me since nothing else has worked to convince me.

What kind of loving person or parent wouldn't take such action and instead just leave their son/daughter to be tormented in hell forever and not get them out? Especially since belief is not a matter of choice and is instead a matter of what your honest open mindset leads you to.

It is as though the Christian God, for example, is saying:

"I am an all loving and all just God. I have had my son sacrificed. So in order for people to be convinced of my existence and of my son's sacrifice, I will just throw some things out there. Namely, the bible that I know many honest open minded people will not be convinced of. But if they still don't believe, then that is just too bad.

Especially for little children who die early and other people in other areas of the world who never got the chance to believe in me. I will not try to convince them any more than this even though I am an all powerful God who is more than capable of trying to do so. So that is all I am going to offer as a means of conviction. So take it or leave it. If you are not convinced and end up in hell, then that is just too bad and I am just going to have to leave you there to suffer for eternity."

So don't you see how such an attitude is not all loving, not all caring/just, and not morally righteous?

 

[Neo Deist]

Not to toot my own horn, but I have a Doctorate of Theology from seminary, so I might know a thing or two about the subject.

The concept of Hell is a fabrication by the Church that is used as a control mechanism. People used to be burned at the stake as a form of execution, often in front of a large crowd. The visual horror of the person being burned alive, their screams, and the smell of burnt flesh permeated the minds of all those that witnessed it. The Church banked on that fear to create Hell as a place of eternal torment by fire, such as what was witnessed in those executions. It was fear mongering 101.

The Bible never says that people will be sent to Hell for eternal torment. If anyone thinks that it does, I challenge you to name the verse. What is stated is that the adversary (satan), the beast and the false prophet (the 3) will be cast into the lake of fire, where they will be tormented forever. That is found in Revelation 20:10.

Revelation 20:14 states that death (actually dying) and Hades (Greek - the grave) will be cast into the lake of fire. That will be the 2nd death (end). The verse is pointing out that death and the grave will be no more (done away with; destroyed), as there will be no more dying in paradise (Rev. 21).

Revelation 20:15 states that anyone who does not have their name in the book of life will also be cast into the lake of fire (destroyed).

The problem is that traditional Christian interpretation takes the fate of the 3 and lumps all of those who are not in the book, as having the same fate. That is not what John was getting at. Those who are cast into the lake of fire will be destroyed (cease to exist in any form), not tormented eternally. The modern era of theologians know this and the truth is being told. This obviously goes against the grain of popular belief.

Maybe this will help:

 

[psychoslice]

I am a non believer and I have no more questions, its all too silly for me to even be concerned about.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Not to toot my own horn, but I have a Doctorate of Theology from seminary, so I might know a thing or two about the subject.

The concept of Hell is a fabrication by the Church that is used as a control mechanism. People used to be burned at the stake as a form of execution, often in front of a large crowd. The visual horror of the person being burned alive, their screams, and the smell of burnt flesh permeated the minds of all those that witnessed it. The Church banked on that fear to create Hell as a place of eternal torment by fire, such as what was witnessed in those executions. It was fear mongering 101.

The Bible never says that people will be sent to Hell for eternal torment. If anyone thinks that it does, I challenge you to name the verse. What is stated is that the adversary (satan), the beast and the false prophet (the 3) will be cast into the lake of fire, where they will be tormented forever. That is found in Revelation 20:10.

Revelation 20:14 states that death (actually dying) and Hades (Greek - the grave) will be cast into the lake of fire. That will be the 2nd death (end). The verse is pointing out that death and the grave will be no more (done away with; destroyed), as there will be no more dying in paradise (Rev. 21).

Revelation 20:15 states that anyone who does not have their name in the book of life will also be cast into the lake of fire (destroyed).

The problem is that traditional Christian interpretation takes the fate of the 3 and lumps all of those who are not in the book, as having the same fate. That is not what John was getting at. Those who are cast into the lake of fire will be destroyed (cease to exist in any form), not tormented eternally. The modern era of theologians know this and the truth is being told. This obviously goes against the grain of popular belief.

Maybe this will help:

That's much better news to hear, but I am looking for a debate with Christians and religious believers who somehow think that the typical fear mongering view of religion/God I described above somehow describes a morally righteous and all loving/all just nature.

 

[Neo Deist]

I am in an undecided mindset leaning a bit towards the idea that such religions are fear mongering nonsense, but am not entirely sure which is why I wish to have a debate of my own here. I have read into all the claimed evidence and debates by skeptics and believers and my mindset is an honest, open, undecided mindset. I have truly and honestly tried my best here, but my mindset has to remain undecided and this is an honest mindset I am having here.

My post was in direct reply to the above quoted portion. Good luck with the rest of your debate, and the front loaded stance you have taken.

 

[Kemosloby]

God must know that even the threat of eternal life in hell won't make someone repent, so maybe God made the threat for people to see how bad they've got it, slaves to sin even, and turn to God because they are helpless. Baptism for repentence of sin came before baptism into Christ, so once a person decides they don't want to be slaves to sin anymore they open the door to Christ and perhaps you'd believe then.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

God must know that even the threat of eternal life in hell won't make someone repent, so maybe God made the threat for people to see how bad they've got it, slaves to sin even, and turn to God because they are helpless. Baptism for repentence of sin came before baptism into Christ, so once a person decides they don't want to be slaves to sin anymore they open the door to Christ and perhaps you'd believe then.

I would definitely repent and live my life for God because I would realize that upon the very 1st minute of being in hell that I would of already be begging to get out and that I wish I wasn't the one who chose to live in sin. If I believed he was real, then this would definitely happen no matter what because there is no way that I would choose to go to hell.

 

[psychoslice]

I would definitely repent and live my life for God because I would realize that upon the very 1st minute of being in hell that I would of already be begging to get out and that I wish I wasn't the one who chose to live in sin. If I believed he was real, then this would definitely happen no matter what because there is no way that I would choose to go to hell.

I feel very sad fore you.

 

[Kemosloby]

I would definitely repent and live my life for God because I would realize that upon the very 1st minute of being in hell that I would of already be begging to get out and that I wish I wasn't the one who chose to live in sin. If I believed he was real, then this would definitely happen no matter what because there is no way that I would choose to go to hell.

So you see God doesn't want you to repent for fear of hell, God wants you to repent because you don't want to live in sin no more. But you struggle with the fear of hell, realizing that cannot save you, until you give up and turn your heart towards God for help.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I feel very sad fore you.

I would have to live for him if I believed in him due to hell. But since I don't believe in him, then Christianity is just a waste of time then. However, I do wish to debate anyway about it.

So you see God doesn't want you to repent for fear of hell, God wants you to repent because you don't want to live in sin no more. But you struggle with the fear of hell, realizing that cannot save you, until you give up and turn your heart towards God for help.

Read everything I have already said in my opening post here. Reading more of the bible or anything else will not convince me he is real. Nothing is going to convince me since my honest mindset would be an undecided position.

 

[Kemosloby]

I would have to live for him if I believed in him due to hell. But since I don't believe in him, then Christianity is just a waste of time then. However, I do wish to debate anyway about it.



Read everything I have already said in my opening post here. Reading more of the bible or anything else will not convince me he is real. Nothing is going to convince me since my honest mindset would be an undecided position.

Whatever...guess you'll find out some day.

 

[psychoslice]

I would have to live for him if I believed in him due to hell. But since I don't believe in him, then Christianity is just a waste of time then. However, I do wish to debate anyway about it.



Read everything I have already said in my opening post here. Reading more of the bible or anything else will not convince me he is real. Nothing is going to convince me since my honest mindset would be an undecided position.

Actually there is no debate, who can you debate something that never was ?.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Whatever...guess you'll find out some day.

He only sends signs to those who read the bible, pray, seek him, etc. and I am not going to waste my life over something that could very well be nonsense in the first place which means that there is no way I can ever be convinced. He will never send me any sign since I am not going to bother seeking him and neither can I be convinced any other way since, as I said before, I have read everything I have needed to read and my final and honest mindset is undecided.

Actually there is no debate, who can you debate something that never was ?.

I am undecided with a bit of leaning towards the idea that Christianity and those other religions that pose hell are nonsense. But the small possibility still remains in my mind which is why I am debating. I am also debating because I think it is daft and absurd for anyone to think that such religions and such gods are all loving, all just, and morally righteous.

 

[psychoslice]

He only sends signs to those who read the bible, pray, seek him, etc. and I am not going to waste my life over something that could very well be nonsense in the first place which means that there is no way I can ever be convinced. He will never send me any sign since I am not going to bother seeking him and neither can I be convinced any other way since, as I said before, I have read everything I have needed to read and my final and honest mindset is undecided.



I am undecided with a bit of leaning towards the idea that Christianity and those other religions that pose hell are nonsense. But the small possibility still remains in my mind which is why I am debating. I am also debating because I think it is daft and absurd for anyone to think that such religions and such gods are all loving, all just, and morally righteous.

You are simply superstitious, and afraid, there is no other reason you want to believe in this circus.

 

[omega2xx]

I have stated before that I am a non-believer in Christianity and other religions that pose the risk of going to hell if you do not believe and serve their God. I am here to debate the moral nature of Christianity and those other religions as well as the validity of such religions.

I am in an undecided mindset leaning a bit towards the idea that such religions are fear mongering nonsense, but am not entirely sure which is why I wish to have a debate of my own here. I have read into all the claimed evidence and debates by skeptics and believers and my mindset is an honest, open, undecided mindset. I have truly and honestly tried my best here, but my mindset has to remain undecided and this is an honest mindset I am having here.

Christians, for example, would tell me that is bull because they would claim that I am in denial and only being the fool lying to myself. Now this is an issue that cannot be debated because this is a matter of personal subjective experience. I am in my own mind and only I would know if I were lying to myself or not.

Have you prayed to God and ask Him to show you the truth?

I know that I am not lying to myself. My lack of conviction in Christianity and those other religions is genuine. If, let's pretend, the Christian God were real, then he should understand this and should get me out of hell if I were to go there.

He should of understood that I would of lived my life for him and dedicated my life to him if I believed he were real. Furthermore, if he loves and cares about me so much, then that love and compassion should compel him to try and convince me time and time again through signs and such to try and save me since nothing else has worked to convince me.

What kind of loving person or parent wouldn't take such action and instead just leave their son/daughter to be tormented in hell forever and not get them out? Especially since belief is not a matter of choice and is instead a matter of what your honest open mindset leads you to.

It is as though the Christian God, for example, is saying:

"I am an all loving and all just God. I have had my son sacrificed. So in order for people to be convinced of my existence and of my son's sacrifice, I will just throw some things out there. Namely, the bible that I know many honest open minded people will not be convinced of. But if they still don't believe, then that is just too bad.

Especially for little children who die early and other people in other areas of the world who never got the chance to believe in me. I will not try to convince them any more than this even though I am an all powerful God who is more than capable of trying to do so. So that is all I am going to offer as a means of conviction. So take it or leave it. If you are not convinced and end up in hell, then that is just too bad and I am just going to have to leave you there to suffer for eternity."

So don't you see how such an attitude is not all loving, not all caring/just, and not morally righteous?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have stated before that I am a non-believer in Christianity and other religions that pose the risk of going to hell if you do not believe and serve their God. I am here to debate the moral nature of Christianity and those other religions as well as the validity of such religions.

I am in an undecided mindset leaning a bit towards the idea that such religions are fear mongering nonsense, but am not entirely sure which is why I wish to have a debate of my own here. I have read into all the claimed evidence and debates by skeptics and believers and my mindset is an honest, open, undecided mindset. I have truly and honestly tried my best here, but my mindset has to remain undecided and this is an honest mindset I am having here.

Christians, for example, would tell me that is bull because they would claim that I am in denial and only being the fool lying to myself. Now this is an issue that cannot be debated because this is a matter of personal subjective experience. I am in my own mind and only I would know if I were lying to myself or not.

I know that I am not lying to myself. My lack of conviction in Christianity and those other religions is genuine. If, let's pretend, the Christian God were real, then he should understand this and should get me out of hell if I were to go there.

He should of understood that I would of lived my life for him and dedicated my life to him if I believed he were real. Furthermore, if he loves and cares about me so much, then that love and compassion should compel him to try and convince me time and time again through signs and such to try and save me since nothing else has worked to convince me.

What kind of loving person or parent wouldn't take such action and instead just leave their son/daughter to be tormented in hell forever and not get them out? Especially since belief is not a matter of choice and is instead a matter of what your honest open mindset leads you to.

It is as though the Christian God, for example, is saying:

"I am an all loving and all just God. I have had my son sacrificed. So in order for people to be convinced of my existence and of my son's sacrifice, I will just throw some things out there. Namely, the bible that I know many honest open minded people will not be convinced of. But if they still don't believe, then that is just too bad.

Especially for little children who die early and other people in other areas of the world who never got the chance to believe in me. I will not try to convince them any more than this even though I am an all powerful God who is more than capable of trying to do so. So that is all I am going to offer as a means of conviction. So take it or leave it. If you are not convinced and end up in hell, then that is just too bad and I am just going to have to leave you there to suffer for eternity."

So don't you see how such an attitude is not all loving, not all caring/just, and not morally righteous?

It is more common sense, the hell concept, not unethical. If your parent wants to give you chocolate ice cream and you A, had it before and dont like it, B. Dont like ice cream, or C dont want to bother with ice cream regardless, then, by default, you miss out on the delicious taste of iced, milked, frozen cream pop. Its a default disadvantage of a benefit you have give and chose to say no.

Your parent gets upset because she is your parent and wants to treat you to sweats as a result of your obedience as a child.

So, hell is a default consequence for not taking the ice cream. But it shouldnt bother you unless you A. Believe hell exists and maybe feel off for not taking the ice cream because of one or two of the reasons above, B. Have doubts that hell and god exist, C. Maybe coerced to believe in hell? Or maybe D. You are assessed with the idea of hell even though you may not know if it even exist.

So, why be concerned about hell. If you dont want the ice cream, that doesnt mean you will feel guilty as some christians think. It just means, well, you dont want it. Some people analyze why they dont want it because of other People but you may get to a point where you (former) D. Dont care.

Also, being concerned with what people think can mask the actual belief itself. Hell isnt a place. Its a state of mind and being when you are not in communion with god.

First youd have to believe god exists?
Then youd have to believe hell is an actual place.

Before really and literally being concerned with your enternal destiny or the idea of it. But you dont Have to accept he ice cream. If no one has given it to you, how can you receive the consequences of not taking it?

If god doesnt exist, how can you go to hell?

 

[natasha levchenko]

there are lots people supporting the idea of hell.to be a non believer does not mean you you must not know what the Bible teaches. start from scratch to know the truth. you are scared to be punished and it is quite natural.
in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked,after death,are punished forever.
the Bible indicates whether the dead experience pain.we read in Eccl.9:5,10 ''the living are conscious that they will die;but as for the dead,they are conscious of nothing at all....all that your hand finds to do do with your very power for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom inSheol;,the place that your are going"
''sheol''-hebrew
''hai'des"-greek equivalent -------------- both words mean"the common grave of dead mankind''
KJ translated the word "sheol"--''hell'
i think you are very intelligent and meek person )))

 

[Altfish]

Whatever...guess you'll find out some day.

As usual it is used as a threat.

Hell does not exist, end of.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would have to live for him if I believed in him due to hell. But since I don't believe in him, then Christianity is just a waste of time then. However, I do wish to debate anyway about it.



Read everything I have already said in my opening post here. Reading more of the bible or anything else will not convince me he is real. Nothing is going to convince me since my honest mindset would be an undecided position.

Did you just want to have a reasonable reason why a loving god sends people to hell or do you feel uneasy that you may not go to heaven because you dont believe in god?

Playing devils advocate, a loving god doesnt "send" people to hell. Hell is when people are stuck in sin. If they feel they need to be redeemed by someone else to experience a new life, (heaven), so be. But hell is a state of mind. I agree with @Neo Deist that if hell exists it wast for people to go to. I also agree that its the Church's invention. Thats why people always live in a state and cycle of crucifiction, repentence, and resurrection. Its meant to change ones mind and life to be one with god. It has nothing to do with fear. Thats all people.

 

[Kemosloby]

As usual it is used as a threat.

Hell does not exist, end of.

If it exists how else could it be perceived except as a threat? God loves us so much he put up a warning sign. Hell, do not enter