I am a Quranist

[faroukfarouk]

I am a Quranist but i have a question to all Quranist.
In the first century of Islam every Muslim was a Quranist because there was no hadiths books.
Every Muslim at that time followed Quraan according to the teachings of the Messenger.
Now the big question.
Should i follow a first century Quranist or should i follow a fourteenth century Quranist?

Please keep in mind that both have completely conflicting understanding of the Noble Quraan.

 

[Union]

I am a Quranist but i have a question to all Quranist.
In the first century of Islam every Muslim was a Quranist because there was no hadiths books.
Every Muslim at that time followed Quraan according to the teachings of the Messenger.
Now the big question.
Should i follow a first century Quranist or should i follow a fourteenth century Quranist?

Please keep in mind that both have completely conflicting understanding of the Noble Quraan.

Please elaborate by example how it was conflicting . Thanks .

 

[faroukfarouk]

Salaams to all.
Before i elaborate on any example are you aware that the first century of Muslims were totally against
hadiths books.The Caliphs actually destroyed books of hadiths.
Hence are you aware that they were Quranist?

 

[Union]

Salaams to all.
Before i elaborate on any example are you aware that the first century of Muslims were totally against
hadiths books.The Caliphs actually destroyed books of hadiths.
Hence are you aware that they were Quranist?

Yes I do brother - in other degree or another .

 

[faroukfarouk]

So brother Union the Caliphs were Quranist.
Do you agree with me that they interpreted the Noble Quraan via the teachings of the Messenger(PBBUH).

 

[Union]

So brother Union the Caliphs were Quranist.
Do you agree with me that they interpreted the Noble Quraan via the teachings of the Messenger(PBBUH).

The first part - yes .
The second part - no. Prophet Muhammad himself followed the Qur'an as it was revealed on him and equally it was applicable for all his companions to follow the Qur'an . Prophet Muhammad has conveyed the Qur'an to them verbatim , the obligation of the rest was to follow the Qur'an what were there in the book .

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yes brother Union Rasoolallah (SAW) was the walking Quraan.
My point is he,Rasoolallah(SAW),understood the Quraan better than any living being.
His companions that followed him understood it better than those that came after them.
The Tab'in understood it better than those that came after them.
Now those that follow the Tab'in understands it better than those who refuse to follow the learned Tab'in.
Now tell me how many salaat is obligatory to you according to the Noble Quraan?

 

[Union]

Yes brother Union Rasoolallah (SAW) was the walking Quraan.
My point is he,Rasoolallah(SAW),understood the Quraan better than any living being.
His companions that followed him understood it better than those that came after them.
The Tab'in understood it better than those that came after them.
Now those that follow the Tab'in understands it better than those who refuse to follow the learned Tab'in.

For the Prophet and his companions it was most probably the case , but can't think it carried on for the next generations gradually .

Now tell me how many salaat is obligatory to you according to the Noble Quraan?

3.

 

[faroukfarouk]

For the Prophet and his companions it was most probably the case , but can't think it carried on for the next generations gradually .



3.

Brother Union.
You state 3.Our Nabi read 5.
The Sahabas read 5.
The Tab'in read 5.
I follow the Quranist Tab'in and read 5.
So what does the Quraan state.
3 or 5.
Now lets go to Noble Quraan and see weather first century Tab'in who follows Rasoolallah (SAW) is right.
Surah Hud 11:114
."And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night."
The above verse confirms 3 salaat.
"two ends of the day" refer to two salaat during the day.Your Duhr and As'r.
"at the approach of the night"refer to the Maghrib salaat.
Surah An-Nur 24-58
"O you who have believed, let those whom your right hands possess and those who have not [yet] reached puberty among you ask permission of you [before entering] at three times: before the dawn prayer and when you put aside your clothing [for rest] at noon and after the night prayer. "
In the above verse you have confirmation of "dawn prayer"...Fajr....."night prayer"....I'sha

There you have your 5 salaat.
Those that read 3 are in conflict with the teachings of the messenger(peace and blessings be upon him and his family).

 

[Union]

Brother Union.
You state 3.Our Nabi read 5.
The Sahabas read 5.
The Tab'in read 5.
I follow the Quranist Tab'in and read 5.
So what does the Quraan state.
3 or 5.

Yes , these are written in Hadith . You can’t find any proof in favor of this in Qur’an .

Now lets go to Noble Quraan and see weather first century Tab'in who follows Rasoolallah (SAW) is right.
Surah Hud 11:114
."And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night."
The above verse confirms 3 salaat.
"two ends of the day" refer to two salaat during the day.Your Duhr and As'r.
"at the approach of the night"refer to the Maghrib salaat.
Surah An-Nur 24-58

"O you who have believed, let those whom your right hands possess and those who have not [yet] reached puberty among you ask permission of you [before entering] at three times: before the dawn prayer and when you put aside your clothing [for rest] at noon and after the night prayer. "
In the above verse you have confirmation of "dawn prayer"...Fajr....."night prayer"....I'sha

There you have your 5 salaat.
Those that read 3 are in conflict with the teachings of the messenger(peace and blessings be upon him and his family).

Before addressing the verses you mentioned , please check how many names of Salat are mentioned in Qur’an . These are only 03 .

01- Salatul Fajr – Q24.58
02- Slaltul Isha – Q24.58
03- Salatul Wusta .Q2.238


One wonders if there are really 05 times Salat why Almighty GOD has mentioned only 03 names. Did HE forget? Did HE give incomplete info? Was it a mistake ? We all know that these are not possible to think about GOD , the Exalted . HE is perfect in all respects. Almigthy GOD really authorized 03 times salat and not 05 times , that is the only reason you can find 03 names of Salat in Qur’an .

Now regarding verse 11:114 , how Dhuhr and As’ar become the ends of the day while these are in the middle parts of the day ?

ط ر ف in the verse means extremity / edge , hence it refers to the dawn and the dusk as these are the extreme points of the day . ز ل ف means draw near/close, advance, nearness/closeness/proximity more confirms that these are the extreme parts of the day adjacent to the night .

Clearly these are talking about Fajr and Isha Salah whose names are already mentioned in the Qur’an and not Dhuhr and As’ar Salah – whose names are not in the Qur’an .

Verse 24.58 that you cited has some interesting points to ponder in this regard :

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لِيَسْتَأْذِنْكُمُ الَّذِينَ مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ وَالَّذِينَ لَمْ يَبْلُغُوا الْحُلُمَ مِنْكُمْ ثَلَاثَ مَرَّاتٍ ۚ مِنْ قَبْلِ صَلَاةِ الْفَجْرِ وَحِينَ تَضَعُونَ ثِيَابَكُمْ مِنَ الظَّهِيرَةِ وَمِنْ بَعْدِ صَلَاةِ الْعِشَاءِ ۚ ثَلَاثُ عَوْرَاتٍ لَكُمْ ۚ لَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلَا عَلَيْهِمْ جُنَاحٌ بَعْدَهُنَّ ۚ طَوَّافُونَ عَلَيْكُمْ بَعْضُكُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمُ الْآيَاتِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ


"O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence) on three occasions before Fajr prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the Dhuhr; and after the Isha prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom."



Those three times of restrictions mentioned in the verse are :

01- Before Fajr Salah
02- During the time of Dhuhr
03- After Isha Salah .

Note that the Fajr and Isha periods are expressed here in terms of salah while Dhuhr went blank and mentioned dully as a part of a day . Should there be a Salah in Dhuhr , Almighty GOD of course mentioned it as HE did for Fajr and Isha in the same verse within the same context .

Many more evidences exist in the Qur'an in favor of three Salat . GOD willing we will discuss those gradually . Thanks .

 

[faroukfarouk]

Salaams brother union.
First and foremost
The names of salaat that i gave you came direct from Rasoolallah(SAW) via the Sahabas and the Tab'in.
Now lets look at what you say.
"O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence) on three occasions before the dawn prayer; the while ye doff your clothes at noon; and after the night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom."

Brother all i did was use your interpretation and changed those Arabic words Fajr,Dhuhr and Isha and put the proper english word for it.
Can you now spot the difference between your Arabic/english mix verse and the above verse.
Please brother read it ten times and tell me whats the difference.
These is much more to say but i await your answer.

 

[Union]

Salaams brother union.

W/Salam/Rahma/Baraqah

First and foremost
The names of salaat that i gave you came direct from Rasoolallah(SAW) via the Sahabas and the Tab'in.

The names I gave you are given by the GOD of Prophet Muhammad , his companions and Tabiun . Hence I don't dare to add/subtract those only because Imam X and Imam Y add another . Sorry I do afraid of the Lord of the universe not of any Hadith Imam .

Now lets look at what you say.
"O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence) on three occasions before the dawn prayer; the while ye doff your clothes at noon; and after the night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom."

Brother all i did was use your interpretation and changed those Arabic words Fajr,Dhuhr and Isha and put the proper english word for it.
Can you now spot the difference between your Arabic/english mix verse and the above verse.
Please brother read it ten times and tell me whats the difference.
These is much more to say but i await your answer.

I read your post ten times but failed to grasp what you want me to answer !

 

[Union]

Salaams brother union.
First and foremost
The names of salaat that i gave you came direct from Rasoolallah(SAW) via the Sahabas and the Tab'in.

Also to remind you your original question :

Now tell me how many salaat is obligatory to you according to the Noble Quraan?

I answered you straight to the point of your question from the Qur'an . If other two names are not in Qur'an - it doesn't mean that Qur'an is useless book , it means Almighty GOD doesn't authorize those .

[006:114] Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Brother Union read again.
"O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence) on three occasions before the dawn prayer; the while ye doff your clothes at noon; and after the night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom."

before dawn prayer........time.
at noon...........................time
after the night prayer......time.

Nowhere its mentioned names of prayer.
whats mentioned is time.
Are you with me or still lost?

 

[Union]

Brother Union read again.
"O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence) on three occasions before the dawn prayer; the while ye doff your clothes at noon; and after the night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom."

before dawn prayer........time.
at noon...........................time
after the night prayer......time.

Nowhere its mentioned names of prayer.
whats mentioned is time.
Are you with me or still lost?

What is the significance of that word 'Prayer' attached with Fajr and Isha and not with Zohar ?

 

[faroukfarouk]

"Before the dawn prayer" and "after the night prayer" signify time and not name of the prayer.
Please read the verse in contex.
Look at this verse.
“And establish regular prayers at the two ends"
The Arabic word for "two ends" is salata tarafa.
Again it signify time maybe you want to call those two salaat salata tarafa.
Brother let me take you to the full verse again.
"And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night".
This verse is confirming 3 prayers.
2 at the ends of the day and 1 at the approaches of the night.
Now if you claim that the Noble Quraan gives you prayer names then produce your evidence if you are truthful.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Salaams brother Union
Please tell us logically.
At the break of dawn is it the beginning or end of day?

 

[Union]

"Before the dawn prayer" and "after the night prayer" signify time and not name of the prayer.
Please read the verse in contex.
Look at this verse.
“And establish regular prayers at the two ends"
The Arabic word for "two ends" is salata tarafa.
Again it signify time maybe you want to call those two salaat salata tarafa.
Brother let me take you to the full verse again.
"And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night".
This verse is confirming 3 prayers.
2 at the ends of the day and 1 at the approaches of the night.
Now if you claim that the Noble Quraan gives you prayer names then produce your evidence if you are truthful.

I cited those 03 names already with ref. from Qur'an .

 

[Union]

Salaams brother Union
Please tell us logically.
At the break of dawn is it the beginning or end of day?

W/Salam/Rahmah/Baraqah.
Beginning .

 

[faroukfarouk]

Brother Union
Please note nowhere in the Noble Quraan did Allah ever mention that you must establish 3 obligatory prayers.
At the same token nowhere did Allah Almighty ever mention that 5 prayers are obligatory.
Further nowhere did Almighty give names to any particular prayer.All that we read in the Noble Quraan is the time when
we should establish the prayer.
Salatul Fajr .......in english.....dawn prayer......refers to the time of the prayer.
Slaltul Isha.........in english.....night prayer.......refers to the time of the prayer.
Salatul Wusta....in english...middle prayer......refers to a prayer in the middle of all obligatory prayers.
Wusta actually gives us a clue that the prayers are an odd number 3 or 5 or 7.
Now what you have done is calling the middle prayer Wusta.Please read this verse on "Wusta".
:"Guard strictly your prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind)"
Middle Prayer in Arabic.....Salatul Wusta.
In this verse we are asked to guard against the Middle Prayer.So the question is which is the middle prayer.
The verse does not tell you the time of the middle prayer.Hence you are only left with 2 prayers from Quraan.
Please prove to us which is your middle prayer and the time you establish that Middle Prayer from the Noble Quraan.

Now lets look at the verse again.
"And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night."
So logically" the two ends of the day" cannot refer to the prayer at dawn because you agree its the beginning of day.
What we can derive from this verse is that the day has two ends.Similarly it has to have two beginning.
Logically look at dawn.When does dawn start and when does dawn ends?
Dawn starts when night ends and dawn ends when the sun rises.Dawn is a part of night and a part of day.
Hence dawn is your first beginning of day and after sun rise is your second beginning.
Now lets look at the other side with same logic.
Before the sun sets its the first end of day and after the sun sets its your second end of the day.
This verse actually calls for the establishment of two prayers.
The first prayer is before the sun sets and the other is after the sun sets.
Remember the verse says at the approach of the night.Which means before the night prayer.

Lets look at another verse.
"Establish prayer at the decline of the sun [from its meridian] until the darkness of the night and [also] the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed."
This verse commands us to establish a prayer after midday.

So what we have.so far.
1.Dawn prayer.
2.After midday prayer.
3.Before the sun set prayer.
4.At the approach of night prayer.
5.Night prayer.

Salaams.