I am an Agnostic Atheist Theist

[stvdv]

26 sep 2018 stvdv Consciousness

What is atmic in relation to theism and definition of a deity?
...and, how does atmic similar to a deity in which it is not god/deity but part of theism a the same time?

Thank you for these questions.
Took a while, but finally I remembered. Some time ago I noticed the vast difference between "western" definition of Consciousness and "Indian" definition of it.

I edited the original post, and added this misunderstanding to it. So at least that part is more clear now.
But a warning, this "Cosmic Consciousness" is very hard to grasp. Probably when we are enlightened we experience and really know it.

I also replied to a post of @'mud in which I answered a few of his questions. This will also clarify more about this Cosmic Consciousness
I am an Agnostic Atheist Theist
And I also explained a bit more in my reply to @9-10ths_Penguin
I am an Agnostic Atheist Theist

Below link explains also more about it. Especially it shows clearly the "western" definition. So you clearly see what it is not.
consciousness | Advaita Vision
And below link are a few lines, that explain it a little more. Explaining that there is a "heart" ... "Consciousness" in everything
Sai Baba on consciousness

Spoiler: Yesterday I had a personal experience showing this "heart" connection

For a few month there is a cat visiting me and my neighbor's garden. The owner (woman) took the cat in, when her son broke up with girlfriend (she left and could not take cat). Maybe the cat feels this tension (break up with her son; I don't know). She has 3 other cats and 2 pitbulls.
My neighbor feeds the cat, but wants no cat in his house (and it's still the woman's cat), but he placed a bucket in his shed with a blanket and the cats sleeps there most of the time.
Last night it was quite cold, and the cat came to my house, meowing, and I thought, okay let her in. I went to bed and the cat jumped on top of me, and looked at me with her big black pupils. And purring all the time. He came very close to my face, like totally in love with me. Before he hardly alllowed me to touch her.
It's comparable maybe to the story in the above link told. A little more understandable, at least to me. The cat of course is looking for a home/love (not a bucket in a shed).

When I let her in and she jumped all purring onto me (normally very distant) I heard a voice saying "now connection is established". Straightaway I understood what was meant. Everything has a heart and feelings; they have nothing to do with Cosmic Consciousness. But this spark between 2 incarnations gives an opportunity to feel oneness connection. Consciousness is ONE, taking on different forms (maya, illusion, world). As we become identified by the maya form we (as awareness) forget our reality (Consciousness). This "spark" between 2 different incarnations is maybe on very deep level "knowing" there is only ONE (as in Cosmic Consciousness)

Words at best can show the way. BUT when you feel this "spark", this so called "aha moment", this "reading between the lines" the "coin may drop".

 

[ChristineM]

25 sep 2018 stvdv
I think the word "God" is a funny word in the sense that most of the people talk about it, while none can give a globally accepted definition, proving it's a subjective belief; no fact.

I believe that "all names and forms" that humans attribute to God are illusory. Hence I can say I am an Atheist (deity does not exist) and an Agnostic (God is unknown)
I believe that the Limitless, Attributeless Divine Consciousness is our own Atmic Reality, hence I can say I am a Theist (Theist as in "Divine Consciousness" NOT deities)

Therefore I see myself as: 1)Agnostic + 2)Atheist + 3)Theist

Some definitions to avoid too much confusion on this very confusing matter: Cosmic Consciousness:
Conscience = Conscience is a Witness. It is also known as Awareness. A witness requires a basis to function (that of which you are “conscious” in the waking state)
Conscious = Being Aware (The conscience is conscious when awake and not conscious when asleep)
Consciousness = Limitless, Attributeless Divine Cosmic Consciousness is our own Atmic Reality. So unlike western definition (see spoiler for more information)

Spoiler: Cosmic Consciousness (some extra explanation)

Definition of Consciousness used in the WEST (this is 100% different from definition used in Indian spirituality). Not seeing the difference you will totally miss my point.
Consciousness (west) is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.

Definition of Consciousness used in the Indian spirituality (without this understanding you will misunderstand what I am saying in this OP)
Cosmic Consciousness (east) has been said (for common people to understand) to be "Sat-Chit-Ananda" (Being Awareness Bliss). But Consciousness is ONE, to make it understandable words are used, but it is beyond words. That's why it's impossible to accurate describe Consciousness. It needs to be experienced in meditative state. Takes years of practice to fully understand this. Once understood you are enlightened, so makes sense to strive at least to understand this IMO.
Consciousness is described as: a)"screen" on which the movie "world" is projected + b)"substratum" + c)"on which the world is superimposed". See link below for more info
Sathya Sai Baba | Non-duality

Practical example to experience this Consciousness, used by the yogis in India (in which divinity can be experienced more easily):
All education today is a process of proceeding from ignorance to ignorance. If you seek to know where is the Atma, it is the Chaitanya (Consciousness) between one state of consciousness and another. This is not easily understandable by all. There is a state which is between waking and sleep. Few know what this state is. We seem to be in the waking state and then we close the eyes and fall asleep. Only the yogis have observed this phenomenon.
That which is conscious between the waking and sleeping states is the Atmic principle. The waking state represents the Rajo guna. Sleep represents the Tamo guna. In between is the Satwa guna–that is the Atmic Consciousness. [Excerpt from Discourse at the ‘Summer Course ‘in Brindavan, on 29-5-1990.]

Spoiler: Wiki on: Agnostic, Atheist, Theist

Agnostic atheism is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact.

Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of the Supreme Being or deities

Theism (my definition) the believe that the limitless, attributeless divine consciousness is our own atmic reality

Edit: It's still a work in progress to define the undefinable in words
I believe only Cosmic Consciousness exists and is real (as in never changing)
Limitless, attributeless means it can't be put in words (words are used to describe the indescribable)

You are what you are.

 

[Marcion]

25 sep 2018 stvdv
I think the word "God" is a funny word in the sense that most of the people talk about it, while none can give a globally accepted definition, proving it's a subjective belief; no fact.

So you are basically saying that God is the Supreme Subjectivity or Cosmic Conciousness, which is what we also really (in Spirit) are?
If you agree that everyone and everything is part of that Supreme Subjectivity or Cosmic Conciousness, then are you not in fact to be called a Panentheist?

 

[HonestJoe]

I think the word "God" is a funny word in the sense that most of the people talk about it, while none can give a globally accepted definition, proving it's a subjective belief; no fact.

I believe that "all names and forms" that humans attribute to God are illusory. Hence I can say I am an Atheist (deity does not exist) and an Agnostic (God is unknown)

I believe that the Limitless, Attributeless Divine Consciousness is our own Atmic Reality, hence I can say I am a Theist (Theist as in "Divine Consciousness" NOT deities)

Therefore I see myself as: 1)Agnostic + 2)Atheist + 3)Theist

The whole point of labels is so you can say “I am [X]” and people listening will have a clear understanding of what you mean (at least within a given context). If you have to individually define the labels before you apply them, there isn’t any point in using them at all. If your beliefs require the unique explanation (which it appears they do), you might as well just give that explanation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

26 sep 2018 stvdv Consciousness


Thank you @9-10ths_Penguin: Good observation. I noticed before but forgot about it. The "western" definition of Consciousness is totally different from the definition as given in the Indian Scriptures related to Advaita. I updated the "original post", and hope this clarifies at least the difference. To understand "Cosmic Consciousness" is very difficult, it's not just learning a dictionary definition, but we only know when we experience this. That is a slow process until full blown enlightenment. That, at least, is my understanding in the moment.

I also clarified some answers @'mud gave (in the previous reply), which explains it more

And to be clear, this Cosmic Consciousness as explained in the Indian Scriptures on Vedanta has nothing to do with Gods. There are also plenty of Gods in Hindu Scriptures, they are IMO used to get a feeling that there is more in the Universe than the obvious we see. Once we are intrigued by this, and willing to dive deep into Cosmic Consciousness the Gods, which were useful at some point, disappear and only Cosmic Consciousness remains.

Thanks again, for bringing this to my attention.

So it seems, then, that you aren't actually a theist.

 

[Drew Henefer]

25 sep 2018 stvdv
I think the word "God" is a funny word in the sense that most of the people talk about it, while none can give a globally accepted definition, proving it's a subjective belief; no fact.

I believe that "all names and forms" that humans attribute to God are illusory. Hence I can say I am an Atheist (deity does not exist) and an Agnostic (God is unknown)
I believe that the Limitless, Attributeless Divine Consciousness is our own Atmic Reality, hence I can say I am a Theist (Theist as in "Divine Consciousness" NOT deities)

Therefore I see myself as: 1)Agnostic + 2)Atheist + 3)Theist

Some definitions to avoid too much confusion on this very confusing matter: Cosmic Consciousness:
Conscience = Conscience is a Witness. It is also known as Awareness. A witness requires a basis to function (that of which you are “conscious” in the waking state)
Conscious = Being Aware (The conscience is conscious when awake and not conscious when asleep)
Consciousness = Limitless, Attributeless Divine Cosmic Consciousness is our own Atmic Reality. So unlike western definition (see spoiler for more information)

Spoiler: Cosmic Consciousness (some extra explanation)

Definition of Consciousness used in the WEST (this is 100% different from definition used in Indian spirituality). Not seeing the difference you will totally miss my point.
Consciousness (west) is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.

Definition of Consciousness used in the Indian spirituality (without this understanding you will misunderstand what I am saying in this OP)
Cosmic Consciousness (east) has been said (for common people to understand) to be "Sat-Chit-Ananda" (Being Awareness Bliss). But Consciousness is ONE, to make it understandable words are used, but it is beyond words. That's why it's impossible to accurate describe Consciousness. It needs to be experienced in meditative state. Takes years of practice to fully understand this. Once understood you are enlightened, so makes sense to strive at least to understand this IMO.
Consciousness is described as: a)"screen" on which the movie "world" is projected + b)"substratum" + c)"on which the world is superimposed". See link below for more info
Sathya Sai Baba | Non-duality

Practical example to experience this Consciousness, used by the yogis in India (in which divinity can be experienced more easily):
All education today is a process of proceeding from ignorance to ignorance. If you seek to know where is the Atma, it is the Chaitanya (Consciousness) between one state of consciousness and another. This is not easily understandable by all. There is a state which is between waking and sleep. Few know what this state is. We seem to be in the waking state and then we close the eyes and fall asleep. Only the yogis have observed this phenomenon.
That which is conscious between the waking and sleeping states is the Atmic principle. The waking state represents the Rajo guna. Sleep represents the Tamo guna. In between is the Satwa guna–that is the Atmic Consciousness. [Excerpt from Discourse at the ‘Summer Course ‘in Brindavan, on 29-5-1990.]

Spoiler: Wiki on: Agnostic, Atheist, Theist

Agnostic atheism is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact.

Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of the Supreme Being or deities

Theism (my definition) the believe that the limitless, attributeless divine consciousness is our own atmic reality

Edit: It's still a work in progress to define the undefinable in words
I believe only Cosmic Consciousness exists and is real (as in never changing)
Limitless, attributeless means it can't be put in words (words are used to describe the indescribable)

Kinda can't call yourself an atheist though(like you believe in mother earth and a global intelligence at the least)(agnostic theist of elitest theory....that's your title.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Kinda can't call yourself an atheist though(like you believe in mother earth and a global intelligence at the least)(agnostic theist of elitest theory....that's your title.)

Depends on whether they consider "mother earth and a global intelligence" to be a god or gods.

To me, theism and atheism form a MECE set: everybody is exactly one of them:

- theist: someone who believes in a god or gods.
- atheist: anyone who isn't a theist.

 

[`mud]

As to being a true `theist`, one which believes in `God`, or `gods`.
Did `God` give birth through creation a `son` in Jesus ?
Did any other `gods` create `sons` of any name other than `Jesus ?
Is Brahma a `god` ? Is Buddha a `god` ? Is Muhhamed a `god` ?
Do `gods` dictate neccessary laws to which we must obey ?
Did these `gods` create `spirit` that is inherent in humankind ?
Maybe this `cosmic consciousness` is that `spirit`
Sans any `gods` or `God`, isn't the Cosmos responsible for `spirit` ?
Where are the `thrones` of these `gods` among the vast galaxies of the Cosmos ?
What direction must one face to pray to them, what `stars` are we focused on ?
What really is meant by the word `spirit`,
define the word please, what `gods` are there ?
My `Stuff` includes my `spirit`, a tiny peice of my Cosmos, the cause of my being.
That `spirit` came into me from my parents and their parents, and before and before.
And through the ages and beginings from the Cosmos itself, and there it will go after all.
From the Cosmos comes Cosmic(cause), from it's wealth comes Consciousness(spirit)
And to the Earth's Stuff will go it, and eventually into the Cosmos will go it, and back again.
Now...if all this binds to one's thoughts of `God` or one's `gods`, so be it.
Pray to it and worship it, but ask if you really want to get to that heavenly place, or stay here.
There's a lot of question marks here, I've made up my mind, and you will make up yours.
Peace to your thoughts and good luck to your goals...

 

[Drew Henefer]

Depends on whether they consider "mother earth and a global intelligence" to be a god or gods.

To me, theism and atheism form a MECE set: everybody is exactly one of them:

- theist: someone who believes in a god or gods.
- atheist: anyone who isn't a theist.

The only thing atheist believe, is that they are God....we're saying the leader of humans is God

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The only thing atheist believe, is that they are God....we're saying the leader of humans is God

No, they don't.

Someone who believes that anything real is God - including themselves - is a theist, not an atheist.

I believe the term you're looking for is "autotheist." Autotheists aren't atheists.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

26 sep 2018 stvdv Consciousness


Hi 'mud,
Thanks for the reply. Good points. There is a big confusion here. The term consciousness I use is from Indian spirituality (100% different from the western definition; see spoiler also)

I updated the OP a little with below. I hope this clarifies it a bit.
Conscience = Conscience is a Witness. It is also known as Awareness. A witness requires a basis to function (that of which you are “conscious” in the waking state)
Conscious = Being Aware (The conscience is conscious when awake and not conscious when asleep)
Consciousness = Limitless, Attributeless Divine Cosmic Consciousness is our own Atmic Reality. So unlike western definition (see spoiler for more information)

Spoiler: Cosmic Consciousness (some extra explanation)

Definition of Consciousness used in the WEST (this is 100% different from definition used in Indian spirituality). Not seeing the difference you will totally miss my point.
Consciousness (west) is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.

Definition of Consciousness used in the Indian spirituality (without this understanding you will misunderstand what I am saying in this OP)
Cosmic Consciousness (east) has been said (for common people to understand) to be "Sat-Chit-Ananda" (Being Awareness Bliss). But Consciousness is ONE, to make it understandable words are used, but it is beyond words. That's why it's impossible to accurate describe Consciousness. It needs to be experienced in meditative state. Takes years of practice to fully understand this. Once understood you are enlightened, so makes sense to strive at least to understand this IMO.
Consciousness is described as: a)"screen" on which the movie "world" is projected + b)"substratum" + c)"on which the world is superimposed". See link below for more info
Sathya Sai Baba | Non-duality

Practical example to experience this Consciousness, used by the yogis in India (in which divinity can be experienced more easily):
All education today is a process of proceeding from ignorance to ignorance. If you seek to know where is the Atma, it is the Chaitanya (Consciousness) between one state of consciousness and another. This is not easily understandable by all. There is a state which is between waking and sleep. Few know what this state is. We seem to be in the waking state and then we close the eyes and fall asleep. Only the yogis have observed this phenomenon.
That which is conscious between the waking and sleeping states is the Atmic principle. The waking state represents the Rajo guna. Sleep represents the Tamo guna. In between is the Satwa guna–that is the Atmic Consciousness. [Excerpt from Discourse at the ‘Summer Course ‘in Brindavan, on 29-5-1990.]

Answers to your questions:
1: "Does Consciousness leaves the dead body?" NO, Consciousness IS, it does not "come" nor "go" anywhere. (above info in spoiler (+links) clarify a bit more)
2: "Do you believe that it goes to some `heavenly` entity ?" NO, as explained above. Even `heaven` does not exist in this picture, only Cosmic Consciousness.
3: "I believe consciousness dies ... but as for the spirit". Aha. This shows the misunderstanding, due to different definition of "Consciousness" ... your "spirit" is closer to it.
4: "We're born with it, and I don't know where it goes.". Until we are Self-Realized we don't know I think. Till then I accept Indian Scripture telling "not coming nor going"
5: "But I think it returns to Life's Stuff, sans heaven or hell.". That's how I see it. Your "stuff" is my "Cosmic Consciousness". I had this feeling before. Don't you think?
6: "And eventually, returning to other people and the Cosmos.". Something like that.
7: "Is there a `heaven` beyond the Cosmos, we'll find out.". Yes, we'll find out. Till then I believe there is only "stuff" or what I call "Cosmic Consciousness"

In Indian Scriptures, to explain this Cosmic Consciousness, many times they use the example of the "rope and the snake". In the dark the snake is superimposed on the rope, so people get scared because they imagine a snake where in reality there is only a rope. The same happens in our daily life. We forget that we are "stuff" or what I call "Cosmic Consciousness" and we get too much identified with our bodies, mind and especially our emotions, and this "wrong identification" creates all troubles like fear and anxiety. That is why the Indian Scriptures advice to let go "Attachment to the body, mind, emotions and the world", and pick up "Identification to stuff/Consciousness".

Even your name 'mud is no coincidence I think. From dust/mud we come and we go (kind of analogy of Cosmic Consciousness/stuff).

I hope this clarifies all misunderstanding

Glory to Cosmic Consciousness (or call "stuff")

This is totally confusion. Why does spiritual things need to be so complicated and mystical. I know our experiences we can't find words but the actual nature of the X we experience?

It makes me think the more mystical, the more is seen as One, Great, Cosmic, etc.

I have to reread it. The mystics are throwing me off.

 

[stvdv]

So you are basically saying that God is the Supreme Subjectivity or Cosmic Conciousness, which is what we also really (in Spirit) are?
If you agree that everyone and everything is part of that Supreme Subjectivity or Cosmic Conciousness, then are you not in fact to be called a Panentheist?

Thank you for your feedback. I made this thread to get "things" more clear for myself. The concept of God became confusing to me, because so many people you have, so many views almost. The term Consciousness is much less confusing in the sense that it is "Limitless and Attributeless". So can't be described in words. Words are used, so that in "silence" the proverbial "coin can drop" so to speak. Before I knew the term Consciousness I used the term "spirit". Less confusing for me.

I have been thinking about Panentheist. But that is not exactly how I see it. The "is part of" induces duality, separation of Consciousness. Looking back I can see that for many years I was kind of a Panentheist, without knowing it. Now I like to explore "beyond the separation". So thanks for bringing Panentheist to my attention. I really do appreciate this view. It creates harmony knowing we are all part of the same family so to say.

 

[Drew Henefer]

No, they don't.

Someone who believes that anything real is God - including themselves - is a theist, not an atheist.

I believe the term you're looking for is "autotheist." Autotheists aren't atheists.

It's not like we have a likeness anywhere close to us, also not to mention that nothing challenges us making us feel compare to divine level authority in comparable circumstantial thought comparison (It's impossible not to feel like a God as a human?)

 

[stvdv]

The whole point of labels is so you can say “I am [X]” and people listening will have a clear understanding of what you mean (at least within a given context). If you have to individually define the labels before you apply them, there isn’t any point in using them at all. If your beliefs require the unique explanation (which it appears they do), you might as well just give that explanation.

Thank you. You are right, labels are handy in communication. I am trying to figure out more about Cosmic Consciousness, so I try to define my label; to get things clear for myself. And thanks to the feedback here, next time I might be able to create less confusion. And phrase it in a better way. Thanks for the tip.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's not like we have a likeness anywhere close to us, also not to mention that nothing challenges us making us feel compare to divine level authority in comparable circumstantial thought comparison (It's impossible not to feel like a God as a human?)

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

 

[Marcion]

Thank you for your feedback. I made this thread to get "things" more clear for myself. The concept of God became confusing to me, because so many people you have, so many views almost. The term Consciousness is much less confusing in the sense that it is "Limitless and Attributeless". So can't be described in words. Words are used, so that in "silence" the proverbial "coin can drop" so to speak. Before I knew the term Consciousness I used the term "spirit". Less confusing for me.

I have been thinking about Panentheist. But that is not exactly how I see it. The "is part of" induces duality, separation of Consciousness. Looking back I can see that for many years I was kind of a Panentheist, without knowing it. Now I like to explore "beyond the separation". So thanks for bringing Panentheist to my attention. I really do appreciate this view. It creates harmony knowing we are all part of the same family so to say.

Even within Panentheism you can view the duality as in the perception of time and space to be a relative truth which is a mere projection of the non-dualistic Absolute (non-relative) Monism. In my tradition that is called advaita-dvaita-advaita, which means everything comes from or starts in Monism, goes through a phase of relative (perceived) dualism (as a projection) and returns back into the original Monism. From within the monistic perspective nothing realy changes but inside the projection there is this dualistic Maya and things changing all the time.

So all of us inside this universe are His projected dream and He is playing with us and creating new entities with expressed consciousness and also reabsorbing them back into Himself (which they experience as full self-realisation or loss of individual self-consciousness).

 

[stvdv]

So it seems, then, that you aren't actually a theist.

It has to do with Divine (Consciousness). So that's why I thought "theism" was not that far off
But when using "Cosmic Consciousness" then maybe you are right and "theism" is not there
Thanks for reminding me. Then Atheism also disappear and Agnostic also.
Wow my whole original post torpedoed. All labels gone.
Thanks. Good eyeopener

 

[stvdv]

Kinda can't call yourself an atheist though(like you believe in mother earth and a global intelligence at the least)(agnostic theist of elitest theory....that's your title.)

Thank you. I agree, I made an immense simplification of Atheism (deity does not exist) and Agnostic (God is not known).
Probable a view labels need to be dropped when finishing this thread. That's good, simple is good.

 

[stvdv]

This is totally confusion. Why does spiritual things need to be so complicated and mystical.
It makes me think the more mystical, the more is seen as One, Great, Cosmic, etc.
I have to reread it. The mystics are throwing me off.

Thank you for the feedback. I believe spiritual things can be very simple.
I remember the circle where crazy and very intelligent meet
Maybe when there is total confusion, realization is near

I hope so, for both of us

 

[stvdv]

There's a lot of question marks here, I've made up my mind, and you will make up yours.
Peace to your thoughts and good luck to your goals...

Thanks for your nice reply with all the question marks
Great you have made up your mind
Ready for whatever comes