I am in desperate need of help...

[ImmortalFlame]

Please, someone help me. I have recently been in an intense internal conflict over whether or not I should be theistic or atheistic.

I am a pansexual male who has OCD and most likely deperession. I used to be extremely religious, but a combination of my sexuality and oppression at church(es) prompted me to leave my faith. While I was very happy when I was religious, I felt irrational and moral-less at times. But, since I felt my faith, I've felt more free and more depressed. When I was religious, I would frequently pray to God to turn me into a heterosexual person, but never saw a change in my sexuality. I am now embracing my sexuality, but frequently wonder if I'm immoral. Right now, I feel like a defective and hopeless abomination.

I have asked both theists and atheists for help, and have gotten panned and insulted by both sides.

I don't know whether or not my sexuality is a choice. I don't know if it's immoral to be LGBT+. I don't know if I'll go to hell by being atheistic, and I don't know if I'm simply digging myself into a hole by being theistic. I need help quickly. If you wish to convert me to either side, please provide me some kind of evidence.

I'm sorry you've had such terrible experiences. I sympathise with your position and I appreciate why you feel the need to appeal to the people of this forum for some kind of answers, so I'm going to try and give you my personal take:

Firstly, just as you cannot really choose your sexuality, I don't think you can really "choose" whether or not you are a theist or an atheist. You either find the claim that God exists to be personally convincing, or you do not find it personally convincing, and although it can often be difficult to be able to tell whether you are convinced of a claim, all you really need to do is ask yourself the question "Does God exist?" and if your immediate answer is "yes" then consider yourself a theist and move on from there. If you answer is anything other than yes (including "I don't know") then consider yourself an atheist and move on - IMPORTANT NOTE: while being undecided does, technically, make someone an atheist, you needn't adopt that personal label if you choose not to, you may simply consider your position "undecided" and move on instead. What's important is that you establish what your BELIEF is. If you believe it then you believe it, if you aren't sure whether or not you believe it then you don't yet believe it.

Secondly, once you have determined what you believe or don't believe about God, you can begin to structure your own moral position. Whether or not you believe there is a God, you can ask yourself which parts of your religion's scripture you agree with and which you don't, and ask yourself why you reached those conclusions. The most important question you can ever ask yourself is: "What do I believe, and why do I believe it?" Ask that of all of your positions, especially your position about feeling like a "defective and hopeless abomination". Ask yourself WHY you believe that, and don't stop questioning your own motivations until you reach one of two conclusions: either you will feel your belief is justified - in which case you can start making choices to reinforce that belief; or you will feel this belief is unjustified - in which case you can start taking steps to get rid of that belief and the effect it may have had on you. This is really all about introspection, but you'll be surprised how often people simply don't question their own position, and how often those who do find it surprisingly easy to change once they realized a belief they had was unjustified. Please also note that there is no one way to do this. Personal introspection requires personal methods of investigation. If quiet contemplation works for you, do it. If prayer works, do that.

Thirdly, beware of anyone who wants to win you over to "their side". It's important to keep asking yourself that above question, but it's also the most important question you can ask other people. If someone wants to make you believe something, ask them why they believe it. Keep asking that question until you are personally satisfied that their beliefs are either correct or incorrect/baseless, and you can either dismiss and adopt their belief as it suits you. Ultimately, your intellectual judgement is the only barometer you have to finding personal truth and fulfilment. I can't tell you what to believe beyond giving you an impression of what I personally believe, and trying to get you to see things from my point of view. Clarity in issues like this only arises when we take a moment to assess our own beliefs and whether or not they are sound before giving ear to other people who may influence us.

I'm not sure if that's the kind of stuff you wanted to hear, but I honestly don't think much other advice is going to be genuinely helpful to you. All I can really say is that if your religious beliefs caused this level of uncertainty in you, then you need to personally re-evaluate your relationship with your religion and work out for yourself what parts, if any, are still helpful and meaningful to you, and construct your own moral framework out of whatever's left going forward.

Good luck!

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

I empathize a lot with your position, JeremK. As a queer person with OCD, the situation you're talking about cuts deep. Now, I wasn't raised Christian, but I tried converting when I was younger and some parts of the scriptures were fertile ground for upsetting thought complexes about "living in sin".

Here's a ground rule to keep in mind always: it is an objective fact that there is nothing wrong with homosexual desires or behaviors. This is a fact, confirmed by all available evidence. It is not recognized as a mental disorder. It is present in all cultures, and many non-human animal species. Love and intimacy between people of the same gender has inspired some of the greatest art, music, and literature in world history - including parts of the Bible itself. David wrote psalms to Jonathan, his wartime friend, saying how their love for each other "surpassed the love of women". I can cite chapter and verse if you'd like. Many of us have led brilliant, historic lives - Da Vinci, Oscar Wilde, and Alan Turing, to name a few. Do not judge your own worth on what your religious group says about queerness. Instead, you should gauge the value of your religious group based on whether they are mature and open-minded to accept the person you are. If not, get up and walk away. It's for the best.

This brings us to the second part of your conundrum - theism vs atheism. You're disillusioned with the God you were raised with - I would be too. However, there's obviously something about your Christian faith that really appeals to you. Do you know what it is, specifically? The community? The sense of God looking out for you? The moral values Jesus teaches? Read atheist arguments, sure, but also explore religion outside conservative Christianity - there's an endlessly vast world of spiritual traditions besides conservative Christianity and nonreligious atheism. If you feel a strong attachment to Christianity in particular, there are a lot of progressive subgroups who are fine with LGBTQ people - maybe look into that? Some of the most left-wing theological voices (John Shelby Spong being a prominent example) border on atheism when put next to a traditionalist. You should explore many ideas though - there might be a religious or philosophical system that clicks for you in a whole new way. We're all different individuals shaped by our unique experiences, and one person's path may not be another's. Your journey might just be beginning - conduct it with a sense of pride and personal acceptance.

May you find a path that brings you a healthier, happier and more fulfilled life. Never let dogmatists and emotional abusers get you down. Best wishes!

 

[Bunyip]

Please, someone help me. I have recently been in an intense internal conflict over whether or not I should be theistic or atheistic.

I am a pansexual male who has OCD and most likely deperession. I used to be extremely religious, but a combination of my sexuality and oppression at church(es) prompted me to leave my faith. While I was very happy when I was religious, I felt irrational and moral-less at times. But, since I felt my faith, I've felt more free and more depressed. When I was religious, I would frequently pray to God to turn me into a heterosexual person, but never saw a change in my sexuality. I am now embracing my sexuality, but frequently wonder if I'm immoral. Right now, I feel like a defective and hopeless abomination.

I have asked both theists and atheists for help, and have gotten panned and insulted by both sides.

I don't know whether or not my sexuality is a choice. I don't know if it's immoral to be LGBT+. I don't know if I'll go to hell by being atheistic, and I don't know if I'm simply digging myself into a hole by being theistic. I need help quickly. If you wish to convert me to either side, please provide me some kind of evidence.

It's about the journey. Nobody can really tell you what works for you. Seems to me you are at a place where you really need to think and explore this stuff - so my advice is; read everything. I read everything from the Talmud to the Upanishads.
The only thing about real truth worth counting on is that it will fit the data in the end, however obscure it seems now.

As an aside, and a fellow depressive with OCD tendencies - may I recommend that you find some way to rock your OCD? Spending a zillion hours sewing sequins, or gluing stuff together can satisfy the OCD, create something amazing AND give you space to think.