I am no longer a Sikh

[Treks]

I know - but I prefer to have my head securely covered. The undercap really helps keep the chunni on this gori's head.

 

[Treks]

I also acknowledge that it is very generous for Sikhs to allow all different kinds of people into the Gurdwara with minimum fuss, and have them in their sangat, and serve them langar. Given the racism a lot of Indians/Malaysians experience, particularly in Australia, I understand how westerners could be unwelcome or perceived as a threat - even if it's subconscious. Also, the Gurdwara can be a place for people to hold on to their cultural heritage. They get to socialise and speak their mother tongue with their friends and people of like mind. And that's great.

My leaving is probably more a reflection of myself than the community. I just want to make that abundantly clear.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. I understand how westerners could be unwelcome or perceived as a threat - even if it's subconscious. Also, the Gurdwara can be a place for people to hold on to their cultural heritage. They get to socialise and speak their mother tongue with their friends and people of like mind.

I see no reason that they should be perceived as a threat. They can hold their cultural functions, but again, no reason not to welcome a westerner who is genuinely interested. In India we would overwhelm the person with attention, the guest is no less than God (Atithi Devo Bhava). Can you imagine Sri Guru Nanak ignoring a guest? This is not to force a decision upon you.

 

[Satnaam]

Do you perceive a disconnect between Gurbani and Sikhi? Like any religion, many extraneous elements have been incorporated via tradition and sakhis (stories). Could it not be argued that if one was to follow Gurbani only (live the Shabad), they could do so without even appearing like one of today's Sikhs?

Crap! I'm running late for my appointment!!!

Could you elaborate on the first sentence? I agree with the fact that Sikhi has been diluted, the simple religion has been made so complex.

I agree somewhat with your last sentence. Sikhi is not (only) about having the kakaars, speaking Punjabi, having the best looking dastar and what not, its about the inner first and foremost. I would consider you a Sikh even if you don't go to the Gurdwara, meditate sometimes and are a good human being with utmost respect for the Guru Sahibaan as you do. Why the need to complicate it?

So phenji were you late for the appointment? Agh Im always late whether to classes or appointments

Also, the Gurdwara can be a place for people to hold on to their cultural heritage. They get to socialise and speak their mother tongue with their friends and people of like mind. And that's great.

I was going to find a mistake in that sentence and then I saw 'can be'. Indeed, they wrongly have turned into a Punjabi diaspora gossip center especially for some ladies who sit there and judge others :/
And not surprising that you have been more welcomed in Malaysian based Gurdwaras than Punjabis...
Only if you were in the UK! You wouldve loved it I think. One lady moved from my country which has few Sikhs to nearby England and she loves it, you would have Punjabi Sikhs who speak only English (the youth) who you could connect to, you know Basics of Sikhi, just imagine plenty of Jagraj Singhs and the lady preacher. Altough I also dont like his Woo as you put it haha

 

[Vishvavajra]

The social isolation has been a large part of it, for me. And hearing about the negative experiences of other gori bhainjis. I have been at Gurdwara with my long uncut hair in a braid, head covered with an undercap and a chunni over the top of that, in salwar kameez, kara on my wrist, and still asked why I was at the Gurdwara, if I was a Sikh, or if I was there with my Sikh husband.

You have my sympathies. Trying to fit into a religious culture that is strongly associated with a particular ethnicity is hard. And although I have seen a couple, I don't get the impression that converts to Sikhi are terribly common (especially ones that look like you)?

I imagine they didn't mean to make you feel excluded. Every Sikh I've ever met has been a kind, beautiful person. But even the best people can still fall into unconscious tribal habits, where they get used to things being a certain way and don't readily adapt their thinking to embrace things they aren't used to. And then, as you said, when the religious center becomes also a cultural enclave...

 

[Treks]

I see no reason that they should be perceived as a threat. They can hold their cultural functions, but again, no reason not to welcome a westerner who is genuinely interested. In India we would overwhelm the person with attention, the guest is no less than God (Atithi Devo Bhava). Can you imagine Sri Guru Nanak ignoring a guest? This is not to force a decision upon you.

Oops, I forgot about this thread!

What I mean by 'perceived as a threat' is that the white girl would bring with her Western culture, which for a community living in a Western country, that is somewhat trying to hold on to their unique cultural identity, it could be seen as a threat.

I was welcomed. I was invited to some Gurdwara functions like weddings. But I was always on the edge of the community. I never really had any friends. Maybe that's just my failing.

 

[Treks]

Satnaam>> Could you elaborate on the first sentence? I agree with the fact that Sikhi has been diluted, the simple religion has been made so complex.

What I mean by a disconnect between Gurbani and Sikhi is that the Gurbani - the Sri Guru Ganth Sahib Ji - appears to give one set of guidance, and Sikhi (the religion) seems to contradict that somewhat. Lets take the emphasis on keeping one's hair, for example. Gurbani is clear that it doesn't matter if you keep your hair or not. Sikhi is a distraction from the real truth within Gurbani.

I agree somewhat with your last sentence. Sikhi is not (only) about having the kakaars, speaking Punjabi, having the best looking dastar and what not, its about the inner first and foremost. I would consider you a Sikh even if you don't go to the Gurdwara, meditate sometimes and are a good human being with utmost respect for the Guru Sahibaan as you do. Why the need to complicate it?

Precisely!! So... why Sikhi (the religion), then? It is superfluous to the message within Gurbani. Ergo - Treks isn't a Sikh anymore.

I was going to find a mistake in that sentence and then I saw 'can be'. Indeed, they wrongly have turned into a Punjabi diaspora gossip center especially for some ladies who sit there and judge others :/
And not surprising that you have been more welcomed in Malaysian based Gurdwaras than Punjabis...
Only if you were in the UK! You wouldve loved it I think. One lady moved from my country which has few Sikhs to nearby England and she loves it, you would have Punjabi Sikhs who speak only English (the youth) who you could connect to, you know Basics of Sikhi, just imagine plenty of Jagraj Singhs and the lady preacher. Altough I also dont like his Woo as you put it haha

Yeah, I can imagine it the sangat in the UK would be much easier to connect with. I suppose, being the only white convert to Sikhi in my city that I know of (not for lack of searching, either), the isolation just got too much. And when I encountered anti-Western and anti-white racism in the online community I was part of, that really just felt like total rejection, and was the straw that broke the camel's back.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Aupmanyav]

What I mean by 'perceived as a threat' is that the white girl would bring with her Western culture, which for a community living in a Western country, that is somewhat trying to hold on to their unique cultural identity, it could be seen as a threat.

Yes, there may be a few people like that but generally Sikhs will not mind it as many of them themselves are quite westernized. Moreover, they can keep their views insulated from Western influences.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What I mean by a disconnect between Gurbani and Sikhi is that the Gurbani - the Sri Guru Ganth Sahib Ji - appears to give one set of guidance, and Sikhi (the religion) seems to contradict that somewhat. Lets take the emphasis on keeping one's hair, for example. Gurbani is clear that it doesn't matter if you keep your hair or not. Sikhi is a distraction from the real truth within Gurbani.

Treks, that problem is not only with Sikhi but with all religions. Do Hindus, Christians and Muslims always follow the precepts of their religion? It is the failing of individuals. The five k's were prescribed by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji. But we have many Sahajdharis among Hindus who do not keep the five K's (Punjabis and Sindhis). For them, there is no guru other than Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji and no scripture other than the 'Adi Granth'. They too are Sikhs (followers of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji) whether the community accepts them or not. When the Sikh gurus said that they are neither Hindu nor Muslim, they did not mean that they belonged to a new religion, Sikhism. They were trying to get away from the bondage of religions.

 

[atanu]

After 13 years of study and many years of practice, I am no longer a Sikh, or even "Kind-of Sikh-ish".
Here's why:

• While Sikhi has beautiful poetry, it's circular definitions drive me crazy. It seems to be a case of Hukam is Shabad is Guru is Naam is Shabad is Hukam is Guru. The definitions are not obvious.
• The leadership in Amritsar seems to be more concerned with politics than with problems, or actually, like, guiding the Sikh community in any way, shape or form.
  • For example, women still don't get the opportunity to sing in Harmandir Sahib - why?
• The Dasam Granth contains a whole massive chapter on the sexual wiles of women, and yet Sikhs are supposed to recite songs from this book every day, and in fact one daily poem is from this chapter (which is at the end, and not related to the sexual material).
• White people are expected to abandon their own culture and become as Punjabi as possible.
• Anti-Western sentiment comes out frequently.
• Despite its great foundation in rationality, an element of supernaturalism is creeping in, with things such as the "tenth door", the "technology of hair", ritualism around anything written in the sacred script, and ritualistic activities in the Gurdwara like air conditioners for the comfort of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (scripture).

The good bits of Sikhi aren't unique to Sikhi. I don't need to sacrifice my cultural identity to be a good person. I don't need to spend hours and hours mulling over poetry which utilizes terminology that does not seem to be adequately defined, to be a good person.

Some people do find their peace in Sikhi. More power to them. Sadly, it's just not where I belong anymore.

I have enjoyed the food though.

May you (and all) find the peace that is there within the mind that happens to seek peace everywhere but in itself.

 

[Satnaam]

I won't say that Sikhi is not an established 'organised' way of life. We have one scripture, one religio-political center (Akal Takth, the others were added after the Gurus), injunctions for ceremonies and what not. But yes Sikhi has been complicated by many sects.

Bhai Gurdas who was a contemponary of the Gurus wrote that Guru Nanak Dev Ji started the Nirmal Panth. Which is the Khalsa panth because both mean pure. Khalsa word is even mentioned in Gurbani. A Sikh equalling the Guru is mentioned in Gurbani (5 pyare concept). Gurbani being Guru is mentioned in Gurbani (1708 Gurgaddi or was it Guru before too). We have misunderstood Sikhi and think pre 1699 Sikhi was different to the one before when in fact you will be shocked to find so much 'rehat' in Gurbani. Well the things you need most.

I agree that the four other K's might have been a need of the time but I do disagree about Kes. Keeping kes and not circumcising for men is actually part of the same concept; not altering your body which is under Hukam. If Parmatma wanted the foreskin to be cut off, you'd be born without it.
Historically even Guru Nanak Dev ji had long hair and instructed others to keep uncut hair, don't think its an overnight revolution happening in 1699 (historically it was not even in 1699 but a few years earlier according to historical books).

I read a book about a Muslim convert to Sikhi who said that he met ARABIC Sikhs on his journey (hajj) to Mecca Medina in the 20th century. He said they kept uncut hair since Guru Nanak Jis visit to Arabia and had Japji Sahib in arabic. Waheguru.

 

[Satnaam]

I am so sad when reading about Sehajdharis (the slow adopters)/Nanakpanthis who are pushed away from Sikhi by the mainstream.

There used to be millions of Nanakpanthis who believed in the Gurus, SGGS but did not keep the 5Ks and they were gradually pushed to their original faiths in the last century due to narrow mindedness of some Sikh institutions.

Here is an article by Bhai Harbans Lal (a Nanakpanthi himself, i.e. he has no beard or turban) on Sehajdharis

http://www.iuscanada.com/journal/archives/1999/j0101p37.pdf

 

[Treks]

Ah, I always come back to the Sikh philosophy. Religion - not so much. But the philosophy does have immense value, and provides a framework for thought, conduct and contentment.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Guru Nanak Dev Ji started the Nirmal Panth.

Panth does not equate to a religion, it simply means a way.

 

[karn1299s]

After 13 years of study and many years of practice, I am no longer a Sikh, or even "Kind-of Sikh-ish".
Here's why:

• While Sikhi has beautiful poetry, it's circular definitions drive me crazy. It seems to be a case of Hukam is Shabad is Guru is Naam is Shabad is Hukam is Guru. The definitions are not obvious.
• The leadership in Amritsar seems to be more concerned with politics than with problems, or actually, like, guiding the Sikh community in any way, shape or form.
  • For example, women still don't get the opportunity to sing in Harmandir Sahib - why?
• The Dasam Granth contains a whole massive chapter on the sexual wiles of women, and yet Sikhs are supposed to recite songs from this book every day, and in fact one daily poem is from this chapter (which is at the end, and not related to the sexual material).
• White people are expected to abandon their own culture and become as Punjabi as possible.
• Anti-Western sentiment comes out frequently.
• Despite its great foundation in rationality, an element of supernaturalism is creeping in, with things such as the "tenth door", the "technology of hair", ritualism around anything written in the sacred script, and ritualistic activities in the Gurdwara like air conditioners for the comfort of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (scripture).

The good bits of Sikhi aren't unique to Sikhi. I don't need to sacrifice my cultural identity to be a good person. I don't need to spend hours and hours mulling over poetry which utilizes terminology that does not seem to be adequately defined, to be a good person.

Some people do find their peace in Sikhi. More power to them. Sadly, it's just not where I belong anymore.

I have enjoyed the food though.

UR right,
Sikhism teaches you to become a better person to find that divine power that resites in everything and just fall in love with it. U don't have to practice sikhism just be what u r and my best wishes for you on this journey.
Remember we all are apart of god so there is no right or wrong

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

After 13 years of study and many years of practice, I am no longer a Sikh, or even "Kind-of Sikh-ish".
Here's why:

• While Sikhi has beautiful poetry, it's circular definitions drive me crazy. It seems to be a case of Hukam is Shabad is Guru is Naam is Shabad is Hukam is Guru. The definitions are not obvious.
• The leadership in Amritsar seems to be more concerned with politics than with problems, or actually, like, guiding the Sikh community in any way, shape or form.
  • For example, women still don't get the opportunity to sing in Harmandir Sahib - why?
• The Dasam Granth contains a whole massive chapter on the sexual wiles of women, and yet Sikhs are supposed to recite songs from this book every day, and in fact one daily poem is from this chapter (which is at the end, and not related to the sexual material).
• White people are expected to abandon their own culture and become as Punjabi as possible.
• Anti-Western sentiment comes out frequently.
• Despite its great foundation in rationality, an element of supernaturalism is creeping in, with things such as the "tenth door", the "technology of hair", ritualism around anything written in the sacred script, and ritualistic activities in the Gurdwara like air conditioners for the comfort of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (scripture).

The good bits of Sikhi aren't unique to Sikhi. I don't need to sacrifice my cultural identity to be a good person. I don't need to spend hours and hours mulling over poetry which utilizes terminology that does not seem to be adequately defined, to be a good person.

Some people do find their peace in Sikhi. More power to them. Sadly, it's just not where I belong anymore.

I have enjoyed the food though.

Well, I can understand the cultural issues part. In many faiths, from Buddhism to Russian Orthodoxy, there is often a strong ethnic component to communal worship. But that is something one has to learn to deal with if one wants to practice the faith communally.

I am not sure what you mean by rationality and supernaturalism? Sikhism is a religion and surely supernatural. It would be strange if it were naturalist. Certainly, it has strong prohibitions on what are seen as idolatrous or superstitious practices, but this doesn't mean it is not supernaturalist. Are you judging Sikhism by a particular Western standard that is inappropriate for it?

Perhaps this is also a part of your problem with the issue of women in Sikhism. Sikhs believe that all are equal, but it is not perhaps the most pressing of issues that they always adhere to the most austere contemporary Western orthodoxy on this.

Sikhism is opposed to what it regards as empty ritual, but ritual to some degree is inevitable, especially in a large and varied religious body. We shouldn't judge accretions of this sort too harshly, especially when they seem to serve a purpose. In fact, often reformers who wish to get back to basics turn out to have less of the spirit of the original sources than those they attack (not always, though, of course).

 

[Treks]

Well, I can understand the cultural issues part. In many faiths, from Buddhism to Russian Orthodoxy, there is often a strong ethnic component to communal worship. But that is something one has to learn to deal with if one wants to practice the faith communally.

The part that I struggle with most is that Sikhi places a lot of emphasis in spending time with learned people, and worshipping together, but to be on the outside of that sometimes makes me feel resentful, like I can't go forwards in Sikhi because I can't have that sangat. Actually I caught a taxi the other night and got chatting with the driver who is also a Sikh, and it was one of the best moments of sangat I've had in my life. So I think perhaps Gurdwaras are not the place for sangat, anyway.

I am not sure what you mean by rationality and supernaturalism? Sikhism is a religion and surely supernatural. It would be strange if it were naturalist. Certainly, it has strong prohibitions on what are seen as idolatrous or superstitious practices, but this doesn't mean it is not supernaturalist. Are you judging Sikhism by a particular Western standard that is inappropriate for it?

Oohh, supernaturalism in Sikhi warrants it's own thread. Please check in the Sikhism DIR for such a thread and I invite your wholehearted contribution there. I hope you will participate so I can learn.

Am I judging Sikhi by a particular Western standard? Well, it is inevitabe that I will view parts of it thought a Western lens - that's the only lens I've really got, but I do try to temper that with an open mind and appreciation of the culture and times. But the non-nonsense message in Gurbani is clear.

Perhaps this is also a part of your problem with the issue of women in Sikhism. Sikhs believe that all are equal, but it is not perhaps the most pressing of issues that they always adhere to the most austere contemporary Western orthodoxy on this.

The problem is with the patriarchy of Punjabi culture. And if today's Sikh religious people want to blow the equality horn and fly the egalitarian flag, they've got to walk the talk.

Sikhism is opposed to what it regards as empty ritual, but ritual to some degree is inevitable, especially in a large and varied religious body. We shouldn't judge accretions of this sort too harshly, especially when they seem to serve a purpose. In fact, often reformers who wish to get back to basics turn out to have less of the spirit of the original sources than those they attack (not always, though, of course).

Correct, there is a level of ceremony involved with Sikh religion. Here's an example of the negative aspect, though, the full story of the airconditioner incident noted in the last dot point of my OP:

Some Sikhs believe that the book of scripture is the living embodiment of the Guru's spirit. At night it gets put to bed in an actual bed. For a long time I simply ignored this as a ritualistic quirk. What really annoyed me, however, was when the Gurdwara I attended for a number of years was broken into, and the computers used for the Punjabi language children's classes were stolen, and the Gurdwara managing committee went and purchased an air-conditioner for the bedroom in which the scripture is kept, because it was a hot summer and they wanted the scripture to be comfortable, rather than replace the PCs so the language classes could resume.

The uncle who ran the Gurbani scripture class protested loudly about the outrage, and was abused via email for his point of view.

That was when I realised I was finished giving my weekly donation to that particular Gurdwara for the time being, and my last connections to mainstream Sikhi were severed.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

The part that I struggle with most is that Sikhi places a lot of emphasis in spending time with learned people, and worshipping together, but to be on the outside of that sometimes makes me feel resentful, like I can't go forwards in Sikhi because I can't have that sangat. Actually I caught a taxi the other night and got chatting with the driver who is also a Sikh, and it was one of the best moments of sangat I've had in my life. So I think perhaps Gurdwaras are not the place for sangat, anyway.

I understand the frustration here. I can only suggest looking past this sort of thing as not reflecting on the religion itself but the, perhaps somewhat inevitable, cultural aspects that will surround worship in many faiths.

Oohh, supernaturalism in Sikhi warrants it's own thread. Please check in the Sikhism DIR for such a thread and I invite your wholehearted contribution there. I hope you will participate so I can learn.

Am I judging Sikhi by a particular Western standard? Well, it is inevitabe that I will view parts of it thought a Western lens - that's the only lens I've really got, but I do try to temper that with an open mind and appreciation of the culture and times. But the non-nonsense message in Gurbani is clear.

I mean Western in a specific sense, I suppose. Plotinus, Aquinas, Eckhart, these men were Western. Western isn't entirely to be equated with a narrow rationalism and empiricism. I did, though, see you use the term WOO in one of the threads here, This is pseudo-sceptical, New Atheist jargon. This isn't, surely, the sort of no-nonsense position of Sikhism. There is much New Age and superstitious nonsense around, but there is a parallel pseudo-sceptical, materialist nonsense as well. Deepak Chopra and Dickie Dawkins are two sides of the same coin.

The problem is with the patriarchy of Punjabi culture. And if today's Sikh religious people want to blow the equality horn and fly the egalitarian flag, they've got to walk the talk.

But surely what matters is the spiritual. I don't think Sikhs want to blow the equality horn in quite the same way as the some today might. Certainly, the recognition of equality is important for Sikhism, but Sikhism is a religion, with eternal, spiritual priorities after all. I am not even sure it is a part of Sikh to remove all cultural and social hierarchy, as opposed to spiritual hierarchy.

Correct, there is a level of ceremony involved with Sikh religion. Here's an example of the negative aspect, though, the full story of the airconditioner incident noted in the last dot point of my OP:

Some Sikhs believe that the book of scripture is the living embodiment of the Guru's spirit. At night it gets put to bed in an actual bed. For a long time I simply ignored this as a ritualistic quirk. What really annoyed me, however, was when the Gurdwara I attended for a number of years was broken into, and the computers used for the Punjabi language children's classes were stolen, and the Gurdwara managing committee went and purchased an air-conditioner for the bedroom in which the scripture is kept, because it was a hot summer and they wanted the scripture to be comfortable, rather than replace the PCs so the language classes could resume.

The uncle who ran the Gurbani scripture class protested loudly about the outrage, and was abused via email for his point of view.

That was when I realised I was finished giving my weekly donation to that particular Gurdwara for the time being, and my last connections to mainstream Sikhi were severed.

This seems like superstition to me. I can understand you voicing your opposition. If it these sorts of incidents were recurrent in the Gurdwara I would understand leaving it, perhaps. But these sorts of failings are human. Why leave Sikhism entirely?

 

[Aupmanyav]

For a long time I simply ignored this as a ritualistic quirk.

If one is going to be ritualistic, then one needs to go for the whole hog. That is what we do with idols. The deity must be woken up with music or bells, bathed, dressed, breakfast offered, lunch offered, not disturbed during the siesta, dressed again for the evening, offered dinner, and then put to bed with the spouse. Standing when a national anthem is sung or saluting the flag, all these also belong to the same category. The Gurudwara managers will buy computers also.

I think acceptance of a single person is somewhat lesser than that of a couple.

 

[Treks]

However, SGGS Ji is not supposed to be a idol. It makes no sense to idolize a scripture which itself preaches against idol worship.

But I suppose it's easier for some to worship the book as an idol than it is to learn the poetry and live according to what is taught therein.