I am soooo fustrated!

[SkepticX]

Going to a church without the Holy Ghost is like eating an apple pie, without the apple filling.

So ... eating an apple pie without the apple filing must be a lot like going to a church with people who don't agree with you then.

Eh?

 

[Haley]

This is a rant. I'm just so frustrated. I honestly don't know why I joined the Catholic Church. I'm pulled to their devotion and ways of worship. I love their fellowship; and I just don't believe in their tenants. It's the same with Nichiren Buddhism. I don't like too much diversity in a belief (like UU, for example), because I like having everyone to believe in somewhat the same "core" of our faiths even though we have different practices et cetera. When you're in a family, each family have different personalities, beliefs, goals, and so forth. Yet, they are all connected to each other by blood and/or upbringing.

I like that, when it comes to family, but I don't have that. My uncle says "I guess that just runs in the family." I guess it does. I just sometimes want to jump off somewhere, but then I stop because I'm thinking of my grandmother too much, grieving, and thinking I know how my mother would feel if I did something like that... over a hundred times worse than I do with my grandmother. I wish I had a person I can speak about my faith and support of some type.

Everyone I know are Christians and not the supportive-to-any-belief type, either. Even my friend, though she isn't mean, doesn't talk to me about my faith just Catholicism. I've known her for over 13 years, helped her with her faith, supported her when we'd go to Mass together, and the works. She can't answer my questions, of course, but her faith makes her so uncomfortable to even talk about my faith that it makes me literally want to upchuck. I shouldn't have gotten my Ashes, but I wanted to be closer to my grandmother who believes she is in heaven. So, I respect her faith.

I am sorry to hear that you are feeling this way. I can feel your pain because I went through a similar frustration at one point in my life. By the mercy of my creator I came to know Yusuf Estes, a former Christian priest who introduced me to the truth. You can watch his videos on youtube. Believe me, you owe this to your self. Good luck my friend!!!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's hard to follow what you're saying because there are no breaks.

I do compare my beliefs to others in the Church because I believe that a strong community should have one solid tenant which are the sacraments of the Church. If we are not all inline (not same expression but same belief) with these sacraments--say one person doesn't believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, then there is an disruption in the Church.

I fell in love with the fellowship and translated Jesus Christ in the way He was personal to me rather than God's view. I also realized, after experiencing what Christianity is about (which I was only academically interested in earlier in life), I regret my saying "I DO" and should have taken the priest's advice to wait instead. Then I would have known that I do not believe God as a distinct being who has human emotions. I also would have known that Catholics do believe Jesus is God; and, that is something not only do I disagree with, believe, I also don't see that in scripture.

I never trusted scripture to base my life on it nor have I felt the need to love Jesus as Christ tells us to love Him (which is loving His Father).

It is more regret than doubt. I know I do speak with my ancestors from my recent family's passing to those I got to know when I went to our family burial grounds. The Catechism (which I have read) does not speak of "speaking to anyone other than the Saints, God, and Christ." In other words, anything outside of Christ is not Christian.

So I compare a lot of my beliefs on the catechism and what the priests say. If I based it only the people and history, I would have never have became Catholic. The experience alone is enough to know I wanted to be one at the time.

I do not believe in any form of the devil, personification, or the like.
I also do not believe God is a distinct being who can "help us in all the troubles we have" things like that.

I also realize that Christianity is an evangalistic faith. Many Christians want people to be saved and they witness, testify, help, advice, or however one puts it in a way that the person they are speaking with has not found the truth and needs some help. The Church is made up of people and if you are not comfortable with the people, the Body of Christ (for example, say you don't like Jesus' friends) how can you be a disciple of Christ?

With my grandmother, she is Christian so of course she advises me to go back to Christ. She doesn't believe in Catholicism. Many of my family are very against it. She gives me that vibe that to talk with her about Christ I should not do it through Catholicism.

If Christians and like-minded people did not have a strong influence--from personal to government decisions (ex. dictating another person's salvation to telling couples of same gender they cant marry), then I'd have an easier time understanding Christianity even though I do not agree with it. I won't be offended by the people--because they make up the Church.

I do control what happens. I am participating in this life and how I do so is how I worship or have gratitude for my life. God, as a distinct being, has no part in this relationship I have with life itself.

I actually never understood the literal belief that Jesus saved everyone by His death. What I believe is that we are saved by many people. We are saved by people who fought wars on our behalf. We are saved by our parents (in my case parent) who has saved my life. We are saved by the people who support us. We save ourselves by how we take care of ourselves. Christ has a role in this participation; but, since He is not my parent, my friend, my partner, and does not represent my life personally, I cannot find any literal salvational understanding through His definition rather than mine.

Christ is not a centerpiece in my life. Taking the sacraments of the Church was like Jesus saying "I want a relationship with you" and I said "I do" prematurely. If I thought about what a relationship meant, I would have never taken the sacraments because to take them, it is serious and not something you fall away from easily. It takes a lot of conditioning to depart from what you know of the Church when you don't love the person the sacraments are based on.

I am a religion teacher in the Catholic Faith and I am hearing a lot of questioning going on with what you believe. It appears that you are listening to what others believe and comparing you lack of deeper faith to what others experience. Our Faith is our Faith. God gives us all we need to know about what He wants from us. It takes time to grow in that understanding. We aren't struck by lightening and then wake up a full blown understanding true believer. It's ok to doubt and question our faith; that is God's way of allowing us to grow closer to Him increments at a time. when it causes us to turn away from what He expects us to believe then we can see that as an act of the devil. Then we pray to put us back on the straight path. It is good to ask others even other faiths but know who you are first. Start by reading parts of the Catechism. Read early father books to hear why they stuck to their views. The Catholics have man Saints in which to emulate and we do so because we know they had developed such a deep faith that they were willing to do anything for it including die. Just the other day when Isis killed that group of Coptic believers. God still won because the Coptic's blessed themselves and died with Jesus on their lips. That was a slap in the face to the Isis; but they couldn't control those Holy men. They did not let the fear of Isis change their beliefs. They died for their faith. It takes a pretty serious belief to not back down when you know there truly is a God and there is a place to be with Him. Who won the battle the Coptic's and God. Many on earth say Ok but they lost their lives. Well those who died didn't see it that way because they had faith that things will be ok. Those of us who have faith and aren't yet challenged in that way might wish our faith could be that strong and we would hope that if we were placed in that same position that God would give us that strength to stand firm but one does not know for sure until we find ourselves in that moment. You want to be like your grandmother. It sounds as though you saw something in her and her faith that you want. I suggest you keep praying to her and seek out the peace that she appears to have. Trust in God and know that if you pursue the path it will be opened to you. It's only in thinking that you control what happens; that one becomes lost in the forest. Psalm139 He created you and knows everything about you. Allow Him to work and move in your life. Just because there are many followers of Christ who say they believe does not mean they have met the true Christ. Some read and misinterpret his words. They only learn a small part of the truth and some truth one would say is better then none; accept when a partial truth begins to lead you in the wrong direction. It's only when you receive the whole truth that one can act with a deeper conviction that Jesus Christ is God's son born through the Virgin Mary Suffered died on the Cross for OUR sins. A true Christian loves not only those who love him but also those who appear to not be loved. We have to be able to pray for the Isis as though we pray for our next door neighbor. We don't have to like what they are doing but pray God changes their hearts. They don't have a different father then we do; they just hear the message a different way and as their brothers and sisters in Christ it is our duty to help them understand even when they appear to hate us in the process. Giving up our life on earth in order to be with Christ for eternity is but a small price to pay. The idea of a true Christian is to eventually rejoin their father in heaven. If you don't believe this then you need to ask yourself why you think you need to call yourself a Christian Jesus could have destroyed the whole city of Jerusalem out of anger over the way they treated Him and left it for naught but instead he allowed them to crucify him. We continue this crucifixion everyday when we sin. We repeat the act of what those ancient Jews did to Him. Do we hate Him that much NO!! But we want to do what we want to do and don't want anyone to stop us from pleasing ourselves - That is a sin. We are a cafeteria Catholic and/or Christian. We pick and chose what we believe to be good for us. We have an ill formed conscience of right and wrong. We need to pray and study and ask God to help us seek the truth. Scripture tells us stories of how Jesus dealt with many sinners. Then after His death He left us in the hands of many competent men whom He spent several years grooming to form His Church on earth. The temple was destroyed and that was the most Sacred Holy place on this earth at that time because God truly lived there. But people did not realize that they didn't need the temple while Jesus God's son was on earth because Jesus was God and the people couldn't recognize Him as such. When he spoke of the temple being rebuilt in 3 days He was speaking of Him rising again. he was the Temple the Holy place where God dwelled. Yes the Jews needed a Temple after Jesus left the earth because God was no longer there. So when we go to heaven there is no need of concern for the earth because everything we need is with our Lord in Heaven. So when the Coptic's were beheaded by Isis the opposite affect took place. Instead of the Isis doing this horrific act to appease their interpretation of Allah; they found out the God that these Catholic Coptic's believe in are stronger than they realized and they did not put fear into their souls but helped them obtain eternal life. Why is it so important for some of us to see ourselves as better than others? When we come to know Him life changes and we begin to see why He died for all of us not just me. Your grand mother would be proud that you are seeking truth. Keep searching and you will find peace even when others take a different path. You might get there first or you might discover there is more than one path to God. But there is only one chosen for you. whether we are on it alone or with some one it has to be your path because we are individual children in His eyes not a herd of followers. I hope this helps you!!

 

[lovemuffin]

I actually never understood the literal belief that Jesus saved everyone by His death. What I believe is that we are saved by many people.

I think there's room to allow the word "save" to have a few different meanings, in which one others can certainly contribute to "saving" a person, in lots of different ways, or from a variety of different things. But salvation in Christian soteriology is sort of a technical term referring specifically to being saved from being separated from God. There is more than one way in which it's understood, but somehow the Incarnation of Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection is supposed to provide for the possibility of real union between Humanity and God in a way that would not otherwise be possible. Sometimes that is thought of in allusion to sin offerings in a sort of legal sense, an atonement for sin, and sometimes in a mystical way involving a metaphysical power of sin and death being overcome in Christ, which allows for us to transcend our "fleshy" natures. I think the latter is a bit more useful within modern culture, although I think both are inextricably part of the Christian tradition. In any case, that understanding isn't exclusive of recognizing help that you get from others.

 

[Jeff Strehlow]

Carlita;

The fact that you don't just blindly accept everything that you are told, I see that as a good thing. You have to find the truth yourself. Seeking the truth helps a person grow spiritually. I was in the same situation myself when I was young and I did find something that I am very happy with and makes sense to me. So don't feel disheartened.

 

[Jeff Strehlow]

It's hard to follow what you're saying because there are no breaks.

I do compare my beliefs to others in the Church because I believe that a strong community should have one solid tenant which are the sacraments of the Church. If we are not all inline (not same expression but same belief) with these sacraments--say one person doesn't believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, then there is an disruption in the Church...

That is a mistake. It's OK to compare others beliefs to your own, but don't expect everyone to believe exactly the same things. That is not only unrealistic, but also unproductive. People interpret the scripture differently than others and even you may interpret the scripture differently tomorrow than you do today, thus your beliefs may change. A church can be beneficial to people, even if not everyone believes exactly the same things and that is the most important thing. Also realize that religion isn't just about what people read in holy books; it is also about life.

 

[allfoak]

This is a rant. I'm just so frustrated. I honestly don't know why I joined the Catholic Church. I'm pulled to their devotion and ways of worship. I love their fellowship; and I just don't believe in their tenants. It's the same with Nichiren Buddhism. I don't like too much diversity in a belief (like UU, for example), because I like having everyone to believe in somewhat the same "core" of our faiths even though we have different practices et cetera. When you're in a family, each family have different personalities, beliefs, goals, and so forth. Yet, they are all connected to each other by blood and/or upbringing.

I like that, when it comes to family, but I don't have that. My uncle says "I guess that just runs in the family." I guess it does. I just sometimes want to jump off somewhere, but then I stop because I'm thinking of my grandmother too much, grieving, and thinking I know how my mother would feel if I did something like that... over a hundred times worse than I do with my grandmother. I wish I had a person I can speak about my faith and support of some type.

Everyone I know are Christians and not the supportive-to-any-belief type, either. Even my friend, though she isn't mean, doesn't talk to me about my faith just Catholicism. I've known her for over 13 years, helped her with her faith, supported her when we'd go to Mass together, and the works. She can't answer my questions, of course, but her faith makes her so uncomfortable to even talk about my faith that it makes me literally want to upchuck. I shouldn't have gotten my Ashes, but I wanted to be closer to my grandmother who believes she is in heaven. So, I respect her faith.

Just let life be.
You wouldn't try and talk a deer out of the woods right?
We should let people live as they please if we can.

Listen politely to those who do not understand that the world is fine the way it is.
People need encouragement not debate.
The soul of another can change a life with just a look or a gesture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

True. What I am getting at, though, is if one person believes the Eucharist is Jesus in His totality while another believes it is symbolism even if they have the same expression, the fellowship is altered. When one takes the sacraments of the Church to be born again, each person says I Do as in they agree that Jesus saved them (no matter how they translate it) and they are ready to build that relationship through the Church.

Since I realize slowly a year ago that my view is not a different expression but a completely different belief, I cannot have a fellowship.

We all can believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior; but, if some Christians don't believe He saved them from their sins no matter how its expressed, how can there be fellowship?

That's where I'm getting at. Not different expressions, each of us live our faiths in different ways, its you have to share some main things in common for it to be a community of believers.

That is a mistake. It's OK to compare others beliefs to your own, but don't expect everyone to believe exactly the same things. That is not only unrealistic, but also unproductive. People interpret the scripture differently than others and even you may interpret the scripture differently tomorrow than you do today, thus your beliefs may change. A church can be beneficial to people, even if not everyone believes exactly the same things and that is the most important thing. Also realize that religion isn't just about what people read in holy books; it is also about life.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's frustrating especially when I hear "think of the other person". There is so much you are willing to sacrifice until you realize that any time of relationship (family, friend, stranger, partner) each lean on each other. I don't have a religious support group. I don't even have anyone who shares even a small part of my faith that I know personally. Every other part of my life, I can find support. However, that part of me that makes me me... it's like they say "religion and politics" such sensitive topics that can't be discussed without stepping on someone's toes.

Just let life be.
You wouldn't try and talk a deer out of the woods right?
We should let people live as they please if we can.

Listen politely to those who do not understand that the world is fine the way it is.
People need encouragement not debate.
The soul of another can change a life with just a look or a gesture.

 

[Jeff Strehlow]

We all can believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior; but, if some Christians don't believe He saved them from their sins no matter how its expressed, how can there be fellowship?

That's where I'm getting at. Not different expressions, each of us live our faiths in different ways, its you have to share some main things in common for it to be a community of believers.

If your beliefs don't fit the church, why don't you look for another church that is more suitable for you? Some persons don't formally belong to a church but have their own beliefs and practices. That is OK to. I believe that being truthful to ourselves and others is very important and if you attend a church that you don't believe in that is not being truthful.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

True. I haven't practiced going over a year now. I pay my respects given the sacraments are very personal to me. I like community and tradition. So, Churches like Universal Unitarian of many will not match. I also don't care for the modern feeling tagged to paganism. So, basically I practice alone. It works for some people, to me it doesn't. What can I say? /shrugs/

If your beliefs don't fit the church, why don't you look for another church that is more suitable for you? Some persons don't formally belong to a church but have their own beliefs and practices. That is OK to. I believe that being truthful to ourselves and others is very important and if you attend a church that you don't believe in that is not being truthful.

 

[Jeff Strehlow]

...
I do not believe in any form of the devil, personification, or the like.
I also do not believe God is a distinct being who can "help us in all the troubles we have" things like that.
...

Carlita; I'm curious, what do the folks at the Catholic Church say about these issues? I don't believe in the devil as a actual being. Likewise, I don't believe in God as an actual being. Some say that there is a deeper meaning to God; I think that is a possibility.

I don't want to give you the impression that I'm a Christian, since I'm communicating to you about Christianity. I'm not. I'm a Buddhist who was raised Christian. I just changed my signature to reflect that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's okay. I'm a Pagan. I'm Catholic by sacrament and still have personal attachments to it. So, I can flow with Catholic talk and switch to pagan. I really don't get much fellowship or doctrine talk with pagans as I do Christians; I miss that. There's only one Catholic I know who has fundamental protestant leanings who will fuss at me for my opinion. One of my friend (the other yelled at me) and the priest are very understanding. The priests will guide me about Church teaching. One told me I should wait before I took the sacraments; I should have listened.

I think the Church actually teaches the devil as an actual being. Many things they believe are literal as with the Eucharist. I do believe there is a different meaning to God. I wrote in another thread that God Is life rather than created it. We are a part of God (which that word is abused a lot) and God is a part of us. Our interactions in life and cultural practices let us be connected to God

I used to practice Zen Buddhism but not formally. What I understand is the "God" in Zen is when the mind is not attached to labels that define us. Taking away a lot of junk and living with what is left--which is who we are rather than what we are. I think that being that we have when attachments are gone is the essence of God. Sometimes dogma can cloud who God is as people try to define what He is...when "He" can't be defined.

It's interesting how we can use the word God in many ways. If we take out that word and live life, what is left is Zen. I was thinking of practicing that again. Refresh myself on the Buddha's teachings. I felt more at peace being a Buddha and one with His words than I did in Catholicism which I wasn't one with scripture just with the sacraments. In any faith, you can't be half and half.

Anyway, I can go on. I'm at work doing nothing for the next two and a half hours... so keeping myself awake.

Carlita; I'm curious, what do the folks at the Catholic Church say about these issues? I don't believe in the devil as a actual being. Likewise, I don't believe in God as an actual being. Some say that there is a deeper meaning to God; I think that is a possibility.

I don't want to give you the impression that I'm a Christian, since I'm communicating to you about Christianity. I'm not. I'm a Buddhist who was raised Christian. I just changed my signature to reflect that.

 

[Jeff Strehlow]

...
What I understand is the "God" in Zen is when the mind is not attached to labels that define us. Taking away a lot of junk and living with what is left--which is who we are rather than what we are. I think that being that we have when attachments are gone is the essence of God. Sometimes dogma can cloud who God is as people try to define what He is...when "He" can't be defined.

That is the way I see it. There have been/are Catholic saints and perhaps they understood/understand who God really is, but there are many Catholics who have only a superficial understanding and see God as a man in the sky. It is the same situation in Buddhism. Buddhism speaks of the Buddha within us but how many really understand this? To many Buddhists, the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are like gods. Though the Catholic Church tends to be dogmatic in some ways, they are not the worst.

 

[SomeRandom]

In any faith, you can't be half and half.

Well............you can actually. I mean in many of the Eastern Religions/Philosophies people tend to drift in and out and some have a multitude of differing beliefs based on a mixture of all sorts of religions/faiths. Of course you'd be a bit hard pressed to find an actual community to have a central belief structure within those types of "faiths." But it's not impossible to have one foot in two differing faiths or more. Provided you were open to pluralistic possibilities.

Of course, that understanding comes from my own religious upbringing. All faiths in my household were treated as nothing more than semantics. *shrugs*

 

[allfoak]

It's frustrating especially when I hear "think of the other person". There is so much you are willing to sacrifice until you realize that any time of relationship (family, friend, stranger, partner) each lean on each other. I don't have a religious support group. I don't even have anyone who shares even a small part of my faith that I know personally. Every other part of my life, I can find support. However, that part of me that makes me me... it's like they say "religion and politics" such sensitive topics that can't be discussed without stepping on someone's toes.

It is said that Wisdom, Strength and Beauty are the Three Pillars that are the foundation of the world.
Governed by Wisdom, held together by Strength of purpose and adorned with majestic Beauty.

Every person in some measure has the same foundational pillars.
Wisdom, Strength and Beauty are a part of us all.
What is missing is the knowledge of them and how to access them.

In other words...
Always act on your best thought with all your strength and the beautiful person that you are will always shine brite.

 

[allfoak]

There is no need for sacrifice.
Is it sacrifice to give up the things that we do not want in our life?
The only things that need to be sacrificed are the lower thoughts, passions and desires that keep us miserable.
Sacrifice is a Christian idea that has been twisted into something morbid.
It should be seen as a detox rather than a death.
Sure there is a loss but it is a loss of something undesirable, like excess weight.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can see why youd say that. I was raised in a non religious family who cares nothing about religion. We can choose to be in two different faiths at one tike. In many faiths say catholicism and some ethnif faiths its unethical to do so.

Well............you can actually. I mean in many of the Eastern Religions/Philosophies people tend to drift in and out and some have a multitude of differing beliefs based on a mixture of all sorts of religions/faiths. Of course you'd be a bit hard pressed to find an actual community to have a central belief structure within those types of "faiths." But it's not impossible to have one foot in two differing faiths or more. Provided you were open to pluralistic possibilities.

Of course, that understanding comes from my own religious upbringing. All faiths in my household were treated as nothing more than semantics. *shrugs*

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see the christian view of sacrifice is dying to self/sin as they say which is the flesh of Jesus to being born again in spirit throughJesus resurrection. It just means sin serapates us God and we need (in christianity) Jesus to die for us.

What I find confusing is when you save someone normal they are present. "Feeling" (having faith) that one is saved (scrificed self) is not the same as being saved by fact.

Not many get the purpose o Jesus dying. In my opinion His body dying doesnt save in itself. Its how far we will go to death in order to help others and advocate for His Father.

There is no need for sacrifice.
Is it sacrifice to give up the things that we do not want in our life?
The only things that need to be sacrificed are the lower thoughts, passions and desires that keep us miserable.
Sacrifice is a Christian idea that has been twisted into something morbid.
It should be seen as a detox rather than a death.
Sure there is a loss but it is a loss of something undesirable, like excess weight.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see the christian view of sacrifice is dying to self/sin as they say which is the flesh of Jesus to being born again in spirit throughJesus resurrection. It just means sin serapates us God and we need (in christianity) Jesus to die for us.
What I find confusing is when you save someone normal they are present. "Feeling" (having faith) that one is saved (scrificed self) is not the same as being saved by fact.

Not many get the purpose o Jesus dying. In my opinion His body dying doesnt save in itself. Its how far we will go to death in order to help others and advocate for His Father.

There is no need for sacrifice.
Is it sacrifice to give up the things that we do not want in our life?
The only things that need to be sacrificed are the lower thoughts, passions and desires that keep us miserable.
Sacrifice is a Christian idea that has been twisted into something morbid.
It should be seen as a detox rather than a death.
Sure there is a loss but it is a loss of something undesirable, like excess weight.