"I believe in science, I don't believe in God"

[BilliardsBall]

What we are debating is your claim to have tested and validated the claims of the Bible. What I see is your belief that tithing has made you wealthy. You have not provided a valid test or shown that you have eliminated bias in coming to your conclusion. You have not established a link between your alleged success, tithing or the validity of biblical claims.

I see a reason why you believe, but that is not a test of biblical inerrancy.

Money received--despite overwhelming odds as demonstrated--would be an example of one Bible claim I've tested.

I didn't say "tithing made me wealthy".

To establish Bible inerrancy, I'd rather we look at prescience in the Bible. For example, the Bible predicts:

1) The Jewish people will be in a long diaspora
2) The diaspora will be in many foreign lands
3) In each of those lands, the Jews will bless the nation/be part of the culture/intelligentsia
4) In each of those lands, the Jews will experience significant persecution
5) After many years and many trials, Israel will become Jewish again in a single day's event, in 1948 CE

Indeed, due to a UN vote, Israel became a nation in 1948, May. Those who voted against Israel are not just Russia/China/Communist allies and the Middle East, but specifically the nations named as coming against Israel in Revelation!

Further, 60 prophecies about Israel have come true after 1948, for example, nations surrounding Israel will invade--and despite overwhelming odds, the Jewish people will defeat them. Something from a study I wrote:

The Bible, in contrast, says Israel would and will triumph over her enemies, so here’s the modern scorecard to date, starting with (approximate) population counts:
• Israel: 8.5 million people, most of them Jewish, but including opposing groups within Israel, even opposition groups allowed to be active members of the Knesset (Israel’s Parliament)
o Egypt: 95.5 million
o Iran: 80 million
o Iraq: 37 million
o Jordan: 9.5 million
o Lebanon: 6 million
o Saudi Arabia: 33 million
o Syria: 18.5 million

• Totals: Israel’s 8.5 million are surrounded by 280 million militant people (33:1 against)
o There are also Hezbollah militants: 65,000 hardened fighters and Hamas militants: 25,000- 30,000 fighters, plus ISIS and others

• Therefore, we would say the odds looked tough for Israel in all these conflicts:
o Israel’s War of Independence (1947-1949) vs. Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the Holy War Army and the Arab Liberation Army
o The Sinai War (1956) vs. Egypt, Israel receiving help from the UK and France
o The Six Day War (1967) vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq
o The War of Attrition (1967-1970) vs. Egypt, the Soviet Union, Jordan and the PLO
o The Yom Kippur War (1973) vs. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Cuba
o The First Lebanon War (1982-1985) vs. the PLO, Syria, and Lebanon’s Jammoul and Amal
o The Second Lebanon War (2006) vs. Hezbollah
o Operation Cast Lead (2008-2009) vs. Hamas
o Operation Pillar of Defense (2012) vs. Hamas
o Operation Protective Edge (2014) vs. Hamas

Food for Thought: Do you know who won each and all of the above conflicts? Why do you think that is?

Abraham was promised the land circa 2000 BC, Moses circa 1500 BC, and David and Solomon received further land promises. Later, the Jewish people were taken to Assyria and Babylon, but returned, only to be expelled by Rome in the 2nd century.

Did you know? If Israel laid down its arms, the nation would be destroyed by Muslims, but if Palestinians laid down their weapons, peace would reign. Arabs are not only 20% of Israel’s population, but live freer in Israel than in any Arab nation on Earth.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I can help you.

What is the expected outcome for wealth gain for money given away?

You are not providing the requested information. This delaying tactic only helps you.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Money received--despite overwhelming odds as demonstrated--would be an example of one Bible claim I've tested.

I didn't say "tithing made me wealthy".

To establish Bible inerrancy, I'd rather we look at prescience in the Bible. For example, the Bible predicts:

1) The Jewish people will be in a long diaspora
2) The diaspora will be in many foreign lands
3) In each of those lands, the Jews will bless the nation/be part of the culture/intelligentsia
4) In each of those lands, the Jews will experience significant persecution
5) After many years and many trials, Israel will become Jewish again in a single day's event, in 1948 CE

Indeed, due to a UN vote, Israel became a nation in 1948, May. Those who voted against Israel are not just Russia/China/Communist allies and the Middle East, but specifically the nations named as coming against Israel in Revelation!

Further, 60 prophecies about Israel have come true after 1948, for example, nations surrounding Israel will invade--and despite overwhelming odds, the Jewish people will defeat them. Something from a study I wrote:

The Bible, in contrast, says Israel would and will triumph over her enemies, so here’s the modern scorecard to date, starting with (approximate) population counts:
• Israel: 8.5 million people, most of them Jewish, but including opposing groups within Israel, even opposition groups allowed to be active members of the Knesset (Israel’s Parliament)
o Egypt: 95.5 million
o Iran: 80 million
o Iraq: 37 million
o Jordan: 9.5 million
o Lebanon: 6 million
o Saudi Arabia: 33 million
o Syria: 18.5 million

• Totals: Israel’s 8.5 million are surrounded by 280 million militant people (33:1 against)
o There are also Hezbollah militants: 65,000 hardened fighters and Hamas militants: 25,000- 30,000 fighters, plus ISIS and others

• Therefore, we would say the odds looked tough for Israel in all these conflicts:
o Israel’s War of Independence (1947-1949) vs. Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the Holy War Army and the Arab Liberation Army
o The Sinai War (1956) vs. Egypt, Israel receiving help from the UK and France
o The Six Day War (1967) vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq
o The War of Attrition (1967-1970) vs. Egypt, the Soviet Union, Jordan and the PLO
o The Yom Kippur War (1973) vs. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Cuba
o The First Lebanon War (1982-1985) vs. the PLO, Syria, and Lebanon’s Jammoul and Amal
o The Second Lebanon War (2006) vs. Hezbollah
o Operation Cast Lead (2008-2009) vs. Hamas
o Operation Pillar of Defense (2012) vs. Hamas
o Operation Protective Edge (2014) vs. Hamas

Food for Thought: Do you know who won each and all of the above conflicts? Why do you think that is?

Abraham was promised the land circa 2000 BC, Moses circa 1500 BC, and David and Solomon received further land promises. Later, the Jewish people were taken to Assyria and Babylon, but returned, only to be expelled by Rome in the 2nd century.

Did you know? If Israel laid down its arms, the nation would be destroyed by Muslims, but if Palestinians laid down their weapons, peace would reign. Arabs are not only 20% of Israel’s population, but live freer in Israel than in any Arab nation on Earth.

You have established only that you claim to have received money and it is enough for you to believe. You have not demonstrated that the money you allegedly received isn't just a fluke. You have shown no causal link anywhere.

I have seen enough to draw a reasonable conclusion about your testing of the Bible.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Money received--despite overwhelming odds as demonstrated--would be an example of one Bible claim I've tested.

I didn't say "tithing made me wealthy".

To establish Bible inerrancy, I'd rather we look at prescience in the Bible. For example, the Bible predicts:

1) The Jewish people will be in a long diaspora
2) The diaspora will be in many foreign lands
3) In each of those lands, the Jews will bless the nation/be part of the culture/intelligentsia
4) In each of those lands, the Jews will experience significant persecution
5) After many years and many trials, Israel will become Jewish again in a single day's event, in 1948 CE

Indeed, due to a UN vote, Israel became a nation in 1948, May. Those who voted against Israel are not just Russia/China/Communist allies and the Middle East, but specifically the nations named as coming against Israel in Revelation!

Further, 60 prophecies about Israel have come true after 1948, for example, nations surrounding Israel will invade--and despite overwhelming odds, the Jewish people will defeat them. Something from a study I wrote:

The Bible, in contrast, says Israel would and will triumph over her enemies, so here’s the modern scorecard to date, starting with (approximate) population counts:
• Israel: 8.5 million people, most of them Jewish, but including opposing groups within Israel, even opposition groups allowed to be active members of the Knesset (Israel’s Parliament)
o Egypt: 95.5 million
o Iran: 80 million
o Iraq: 37 million
o Jordan: 9.5 million
o Lebanon: 6 million
o Saudi Arabia: 33 million
o Syria: 18.5 million

• Totals: Israel’s 8.5 million are surrounded by 280 million militant people (33:1 against)
o There are also Hezbollah militants: 65,000 hardened fighters and Hamas militants: 25,000- 30,000 fighters, plus ISIS and others

• Therefore, we would say the odds looked tough for Israel in all these conflicts:
o Israel’s War of Independence (1947-1949) vs. Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the Holy War Army and the Arab Liberation Army
o The Sinai War (1956) vs. Egypt, Israel receiving help from the UK and France
o The Six Day War (1967) vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq
o The War of Attrition (1967-1970) vs. Egypt, the Soviet Union, Jordan and the PLO
o The Yom Kippur War (1973) vs. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Cuba
o The First Lebanon War (1982-1985) vs. the PLO, Syria, and Lebanon’s Jammoul and Amal
o The Second Lebanon War (2006) vs. Hezbollah
o Operation Cast Lead (2008-2009) vs. Hamas
o Operation Pillar of Defense (2012) vs. Hamas
o Operation Protective Edge (2014) vs. Hamas

Food for Thought: Do you know who won each and all of the above conflicts? Why do you think that is?

Abraham was promised the land circa 2000 BC, Moses circa 1500 BC, and David and Solomon received further land promises. Later, the Jewish people were taken to Assyria and Babylon, but returned, only to be expelled by Rome in the 2nd century.

Did you know? If Israel laid down its arms, the nation would be destroyed by Muslims, but if Palestinians laid down their weapons, peace would reign. Arabs are not only 20% of Israel’s population, but live freer in Israel than in any Arab nation on Earth.

Why are you jumping to a whole new thing here? We haven't cleared up the last bunch of claims you were making (never mind that this one has already been addressed numerous times as well, on these forums).

 

[BilliardsBall]

You are not providing the requested information. This delaying tactic only helps you.

The expected outcome for giving money away is LOSS.

I GAINED, as have countless others, on occasions where we followed the scriptural pattern of giving.

Let's say I get income from an unexpected source six times yearly--examples could be an IRS stimulus, a bequest, a cash gift for a birthday from a distant relative, etc.

Odds of receiving unexpected income per day = 160 days. How many times would I need to receive the precise amount to the penny I gave away, within 24 hours, to see statistical significance.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You have established only that you claim to have received money and it is enough for you to believe. You have not demonstrated that the money you allegedly received isn't just a fluke. You have shown no causal link anywhere.

I have seen enough to draw a reasonable conclusion about your testing of the Bible.

Not just a "fluke" in the case of money, but multiple instances beyond casual causality. I notice you continue to use general terms and handwaving (and above a logical fallacy) rather than math terms to disprove my assertions.

ISRAEL fulfilled all the pre- and post-1948 CE prophecies cited, placing the odds in extremis up to numbers beyond the number of atoms in the universe. A nation born in one day of a people in diaspora for 2,500 years in the time precisely predicted by the Bible is enough to ascertain the Bible was written by a prescient source.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not just a "fluke" in the case of money, but multiple instances beyond casual causality.

You have yet to demonstrate any such thing. When did you demonstrate any causality here?

Declaring something doesn't make it so.

I notice you continue to use general terms and handwaving (and above a logical fallacy) rather than math terms to disprove my assertions.

You're not using math. You're just making assertions.

Logical fallacies should also be pointed out for what they are because they demonstrate the lack of soundness in your arguments. Unsound arguments are bad arguments.

ISRAEL fulfilled all the pre- and post-1948 CE prophecies cited, placing the odds in extremis up to numbers beyond the number of atoms in the universe. A nation born in one day of a people in diaspora for 2,500 years in the time precisely predicted by the Bible is enough to ascertain the Bible was written by a prescient source.

No it really isn't. You just want that to be so.

So, as an exercise, let's pretend that what you say here is true, that someone in the Bible managed to predict that Israel would become "a nation born in one day", as you say here. You then go on to say that if such a thing should happen, then that would be enough to ascertain the "Bible was written by a prescient source." (In actuality, it would only show that a "prescient source" wrote that particular section of the Bible and wouldn't automatically make every single claim in the Bible come true, but whatever). Okay, great. How does that get you to a God?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The expected outcome for giving money away is LOSS.

I GAINED, as have countless others, on occasions where we followed the scriptural pattern of giving.

Let's say I get income from an unexpected source six times yearly--examples could be an IRS stimulus, a bequest, a cash gift for a birthday from a distant relative, etc.

Odds of receiving unexpected income per day = 160 days. How many times would I need to receive the precise amount to the penny I gave away, within 24 hours, to see statistical significance.

How about the occasions where people gained when they didn't "follow scriptural pattern giving?"
How about the occasions where people lost when they followed "scriptural pattern giving?"
How did you demonstrate a causal relationship between giving and gaining?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Kurds also say they will become a nation, they are perhaps half way there. Similarly Baluchis. Kurds and Baluchis and many people like them who are not yet a nation, are also are prescient. India and other third world countries also said before attaining independence that they will become a nation. They too were prescient. You are confusing between desires and prescience.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Not just a "fluke" in the case of money, but multiple instances beyond casual causality. I notice you continue to use general terms and handwaving (and above a logical fallacy) rather than math terms to disprove my assertions.

ISRAEL fulfilled all the pre- and post-1948 CE prophecies cited, placing the odds in extremis up to numbers beyond the number of atoms in the universe. A nation born in one day of a people in diaspora for 2,500 years in the time precisely predicted by the Bible is enough to ascertain the Bible was written by a prescient source.

I have not seen evidence or statistics that support your claim and it does not look like I am likely too. You have not done anything but offer a reason you believe.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The expected outcome for giving money away is LOSS.

I GAINED, as have countless others, on occasions where we followed the scriptural pattern of giving.

Let's say I get income from an unexpected source six times yearly--examples could be an IRS stimulus, a bequest, a cash gift for a birthday from a distant relative, etc.

Odds of receiving unexpected income per day = 160 days. How many times would I need to receive the precise amount to the penny I gave away, within 24 hours, to see statistical significance.

Maybe there is some other reason. How would we know. You just believe it is a reason you want it to be.

When you publish, maybe you will include actual data.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Maybe there is some other reason. How would we know. You just believe it is a reason you want it to be.

When you publish, maybe you will include actual data.

You have included no data, I've asked you re: what are the odds for X, Y, Z, etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I have not seen evidence or statistics that support your claim and it does not look like I am likely too. You have not done anything but offer a reason you believe.

Evidence or statistics?

Are you saying:

1) The nation of Israel was not created in a day per the prophecies?
2) Israel wasn't re-formed as a Jewish nation in 1948 " "?
3) The Jews weren't persecuted in each nation in diaspora " "?
4) Etc.?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Evidence or statistics?

Are you saying:

1) The nation of Israel was not created in a day per the prophecies?
2) Israel wasn't re-formed as a Jewish nation in 1948 " "?
3) The Jews weren't persecuted in each nation in diaspora " "?
4) Etc.?

I am not saying anything.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You have included no data, I've asked you re: what are the odds for X, Y, Z, etc.

I stopped reading your posts when I realized you were not going to support your claim about the Bible and just run with this diversion. I have no idea what you are talking about. Let us all know when you publish.

 

[ecco]

Let's say I get income from an unexpected source six times yearly--examples could be an IRS stimulus

If you are getting IRS stimulus checks six times yearly, I'll convert to your God/PrayerSystem/Whatever!

 

[ecco]

A nation born in one day of a people in diaspora for 2,500 years in the time precisely predicted by the Bible is enough to ascertain the Bible was written by a prescient source.

I'll bite where others have given up. Please show the specific precise prediction(s) you are referring to.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You have included no data, I've asked you re: what are the odds for X, Y, Z, etc.

You're the one that needs to include some data here.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I'll bite where others have given up. Please show the specific precise prediction(s) you are referring to.

I may be a rabbit, but it is just not another rabbit hole I am interested in going down. They take you so far from their initial unsupported claims that you forget what those claims were.

Maybe you will fare better at keeping him grounded to his original claims amid the shifting goal posts and other diversions.

I like how he words things though. The use of commissions to imply that he is in some sort of sales position. But the reality is he is just selling stuff on eBay. I wonder what other word tricks will come up. Another means of diversion from the original claim.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You're the one that needs to include some data here.

I like that tactic of trying to get us to whitewash the fence for them. Seems to be a common direction to take an argument in certain circles.