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I can not see it, so it does not exist

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The statement in the headline is not from me :)
But I got me thinking, does a thing, a being, a place not exist just because we can not see it? [...]
God can not exist, I have never seen him/her/ it
Gods exist in enormous numbers as concepts / things imagined in individual brains.

They simply have no counterpart in reality.

This position is not helped by the total absence of a definition of a real god, one with objective existence, such that if we found a real suspect, we could determine whether it was God or not. It means religions ─ or at least the ones I'm familiar with ─ have no concept of a real god, a god who exists in the world external to the self.

That's why we don't see ─ our senses even when aided by instruments never detect ─ gods, ghosts, souls &c in that world.

"Supernatural" can only mean "not in nature", "not real", "purely imaginary".
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Gods exist in enormous numbers as concepts / things imagined in individual brains.

They simply have no counterpart in reality.

This position is not helped by the total absence of a definition of a real god, one with objective existence, such that if we found a real suspect, we could determine whether it was God or not. It means religions ─ or at least the ones I'm familiar with ─ have no concept of a real god, a god who exists in that world.

That's why we don't see ─ our senses even when aided by instruments never detect ─ gods, ghosts, souls &c in the world external to the self.

"Supernatural" can only mean "not in nature", "not real", "purely imaginary".
Maybe I misunderstand, but if it is not physical it does not exist as a living being in your understanding?
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
The statement in the headline is not from me :)
But I got me thinking, does a thing, a being, a place not exist just because we can not see it?

Some examples.

God can not exist, I have never seen him/her/ it
Ghosts does not exist, I never seen proof of them ( that I accept)
Spiritual beings can not exist, science has not proven it.


Amanaki asks : Do I not exist because you have not seen me?

It's more complicated than that. While I haven't "seen" you, I've seen good evidence of your existence. There seems to be clear evidence of a person behind your computer that is typing the things you write. On the other hand, supernatural beings have essentially no evidence for them. I have seen no evidence for spiritual beings. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but there's no good reason to believe they do.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe I misunderstand, but if it is not physical it does not exist as a living being in your understanding?
If it does not exist in nature ─ in the world external to the self ─ then it ONLY exists as a concept, a thing imagined, in an individual brain.

If it exists in nature then one way or another you can show it to me.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
... There is an actual reality, even if we have limited experience of it.

Explanation of how we have methodological naturalism, that science is based on assumptions and how that relates an actual reality?

Truth is what corresponds to reality. So, truth, like reality, is concrete. ...

Explanation of that the correspondence theory of truth is not the only theory of truth? How do you know that the correspondence theory of truth is the correct theory, evidence please?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

I'll raise you a step. Cognitive relativism is an interesting position on the nature of the philosophical concept of truth and reality, but in the end like all relativists you cannot avoid adopting specific standpoints, choosing between theories, and endorsing particular beliefs and values. Which standpoints, theory and methodology do you use to assess the existence of things and if it's not a consistent frame for all things, why did you made that choice?

You know this. For it not to be to long, I will leave out some justifications.
For philosophy over I go with the rational, abstract, and methodical consideration of the fundamental dimension of human experience. In short I will accept epistemological solipsism. Thus I also reject the existence of things and for "das Ding an sich" as for objective reality, I accept objective reality as independent of the mind, but that is all I know of it. I.e. objective reality is independent of the mind, but since I know through the mind, we get epistemological solipsism. It relates to the evil demon of Descartes and in practice I believe, but do not know, that objective reality is in itself as it appears to me.

Now that was level one. Now for the everyday practice of it. There are 3 overall categories of experiences. Objective, inter-subjective(there appears to be other minds) and subjective. The way I see that is that we always end with in effect ethics and aesthetics. I.e. what matters, as what I want to happen because I consider it good/useful/beautiful. That is the same for other humans.
Side note: If you start analyzing debates not for truth or evidence, but for what is going on, you will find, that all debates end in what matters individually to someone.
So for the objective as objective for all humans I use science and not just natural science. For the inter-subjective I end with that I believe all humans have intrinsic worth and dignity. As for reason, logic and all that jazz I view that as limited and don't believe in a strong, coherent, rational and objective world view. The utility of rationality and so on have limits. As for the individual subjectivity I believe that those humans capable of holding a world-view always end up going for what makes sense to them individually.

Now as a skeptic I accept that "man is the measure of all things..."; the 5 tropes of Agrippa; Descartes' point that rationality can only get you so far; Kant's view that you shouldn't do metaphysics and ontology, but rather it is a form of psychology as to how the mind words as for categories in thinking/cognition; and the pragmatic view of truth: Truth is what appears to work and matter for someone.
As for religion I accept Descartes' point that you in practice have to trust reality to be fair and that is a form of faith. So this "God" which doesn't cheat and allows you to use knowledge, is not necessarily a theistic God.
Rather it matches the assumptions behind science:
  • Nature is orderly, and the laws of nature describe that order.
  • We can know nature.
  • All phenomena have natural causes.
  • Nothing is self evident.
  • Knowledge is derived from acquisition of experience.
  • Knowledge is superior to ignorance.
Now for what I "hate". Non-religious people who don't understand how it is called methodological naturalism and in effect believes as dogmatically and fundamentalistic as some religious people, that reality is physical and that everything can be done with objectivity, rationality and evidence.
In other words to me there is a funny effect in beliefs. Namely that the opposite sides between strong naturalists and strong super-naturalists in effect do the same. They individual claim a knowledge, they apparently don't have with the same certainty that the other side do to.

Regards and love
Mikkel
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The statement was that "science" was mere belief. I would admit that it is belief... but it is grounded in actual observation and tempered by reproducibility. Belief in a religious sense IS NOT.

2+2=4, is not actually the purview of "science," as that term is colloquially being used here, now is it?
I could teach my child that unicorns used to exist and humans road on their backs to fight off an evil dragon invasion from the outer-fringes of the dome of the sky. I could literally teach that to my children. Do I need evidence to do so? I would state that I need EXACTLY the same amount as any religion has for its claims. Just that much.

You know what? Religion is not just the caricature you made it out to be. Now solve the problems of epistemological solipsism, Descartes' evil demon, Agrippa's 5 tropes for justification and just for fun reduce everything down to being objective and physical as totally independent of the mind including the mind, then I will listen to you. Now for a bonus show that there is objective morality and that objectivity and rationality work on everything.

And while you are at it, prove these assumptions:
  • Nature is orderly, and the laws of nature describe that order.
  • We can know nature.
  • All phenomena have natural causes.
  • Nothing is self evident.
  • Knowledge is derived from acquisition of experience.
  • Knowledge is superior to ignorance.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The statement in the headline is not from me :)
But I got me thinking, does a thing, a being, a place not exist just because we can not see it?

Some examples.

God can not exist, I have never seen him/her/ it
Ghosts does not exist, I never seen proof of them ( that I accept)
Spiritual beings can not exist, science has not proven it.


Amanaki asks : Do I not exist because you have not seen me?

It is impossible to disprove the existence of God. Same with Mother Goose. So, believers in God. and Mother Goose, can still hope to be right.

Ciao

- viole
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The idea that ideas must be tested against observations in reality and that knowledge is always tentative and subject to modification or falsification as future evidence might demand.

Radioactivity is empirically established to exist, yet you can't "see" radioactivity.

Okay, the problem is that "the idea itself" is not empirical, but rather prescriptive. It is a rule about how you ought to behave when you claim knowledge.
And some people don't get the limit of that rule.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is a rule about how you ought to behave when you claim knowledge.
Or when you go looking for knowledge about reality ─ the idea being that you can only make the most accurate statements about reality if you've first carefully and impartially looked at reality.
And some people don't get the limit of that rule.
On what basis, then, could such people claim to be making more accurate statements about reality than those who follow the principles of reasoned enquiry?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Or when you go looking for knowledge about reality ─ the idea being that you can only make the most accurate statements about reality if you've first carefully and impartially looked at reality.
On what basis, then, could such people claim to be making more accurate statements about reality than those who follow the principles of reasoned enquiry?

They are not making more accurate statements about reality. They are making more accurate statements based on their assumptions.
Now show me the principles as independent of your mind or prove them.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Explanation of how we have methodological naturalism, that science is based on assumptions and how that relates an actual reality?
You posed that as a question, but I don't know what it is supposed to be asking.

Explanation of that the correspondence theory of truth is not the only theory of truth? How do you know that the correspondence theory of truth is the correct theory, evidence please?
As you do not think that evidence is necessary to support a proposition, I do not take your demands for evidence seriously.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You posed that as a question, but I don't know what it is supposed to be asking.


As you do not think that evidence is necessary to support a proposition, I do not take your demands for evidence seriously.

How subjective of you! Just as I am subjective so are you.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You posed that as a question, but I don't know what it is supposed to be asking.


As you do not think that evidence is necessary to support a proposition, I do not take your demands for evidence seriously.

Take 2: I don't take the correspondence theory of truth in philosophy seriously. That is subjective, because it is something I do. Just as you are subjective in the bold part and that you believe in the correspondence theory of truth.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They are not making more accurate statements about reality. They are making more accurate statements based on their assumptions.
Now show me the principles as independent of your mind or prove them.
Since reason is only found in brains, why should the abstract principles which are derived from reason not be found in brains?

Where else should they be found, do you say?

Since as I've repeatedly pointed out, you share my assumptions, what is your complaint about those assumptions, specifically?
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Take 2: I don't take the correspondence theory of truth in philosophy seriously. That is subjective, because it is something I do. Just as you are subjective in the bold part and that you believe in the correspondence theory of truth.
It is an objective fact that I do not take your demands for evidence seriously. The subjective part is that that particular state of not taking you seriously is contingent on my existence.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Since reason is only found in brains, why should the abstract principles which are derived from reason not be found in brains?

Where else should they be found, do you say?

Since as I've repeatedly pointed out, you share my assumptions, what is your complaint about those assumptions, specifically?

I can't replicate that the world is physical.
 
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