I can't decide whether God exists!

[Yanni]

"I testify that the heavens are open. I testify that Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is truly another testament of Jesus Christ. I testify that Thomas S. Monson is God’s prophet, a modern apostle with the keys of the kingdom in his hands, a man upon whom I personally have seen the mantle fall. I testify that the presence of such authorized, prophetic voices and ongoing canonized revelations have been at the heart of the Christian message whenever the authorized ministry of Christ has been on the earth. I testify that such a ministry is on the earth again, and it is found in this, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In our heartfelt devotion to Jesus of Nazareth as the very Son of God, the Savior of the world, we invite all to examine what we have received of Him, to join with us, drinking deeply at the “well of water springing up into everlasting life,” 16 these constantly flowing reminders that God lives, that He loves us, and that He speaks. I express the deepest personal thanks that His works never end and His “words … never cease.” I bear witness of such divine loving attention and the recording of it, in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen."

This statement was was given by Elder Jeffery R. Holland of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles in April of 2008.

Yaddoe, did you read this link that I gave you yet? Why Don't Jews Believe In Jesus?.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Yaddoe, did you read this link that I gave you yet? Why Don't Jews Believe In Jesus?.

Quote from your website:
“The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.”

What are these Jewish Sources?

Another quote from your website
“1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).”

Where does it say He will build a 3rd temple? No where does it even mention when.
I know that these are the last days and the Lord has commanded us to build many Temples. In Fact today Temples dot the earth.

Ezekiel 37:26-28
26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Again, where does it say when. I do believe in the literal gathering and scattering of Israel and that Israel is being gathered as we speak. I am of the tribe of Ephriam.

Isiah 43:5-6
5
Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6
I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

Sounds like the 1,000 years of peace spoken of in the last days. Again, it never says when.

Isiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
It also never says when, if you can find it somewhere before the verse, I can't find it, but you can feel free to disprove me. Again it sounds like a prophecy of the last days.

Zechariah 14:1
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

What are these Jewish Sources?
Do you want me to continue on in my deeper examination of your website?
I"m ready to go down on all 7 points.
I posted the big thing on "My words... Never Cease" because of your statement on the Torah being a closed cannon. If the Torah is a closed cannon, then I simply don't believe it because of what is stated in "My Words... Never Cease."

 

[Yanni]

Quote from your website:
“The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.”

What are these Jewish Sources?

Another quote from your website
“1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).”

Where does it say He will build a 3rd temple? No where does it even mention when.
I know that these are the last days and the Lord has commanded us to build many Temples. In Fact today Temples dot the earth.

Ezekiel 37:26-28
26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Again, where does it say when. I do believe in the literal gathering and scattering of Israel and that Israel is being gathered as we speak. I am of the tribe of Ephriam.

Isiah 43:5-6
5
Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6
I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

Sounds like the 1,000 years of peace spoken of in the last days. Again, it never says when.

Isiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
It also never says when, if you can find it somewhere before the verse, I can't find it, but you can feel free to disprove me. Again it sounds like a prophecy of the last days.

Zechariah 14:1
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

What are these Jewish Sources?
Do you want me to continue on in my deeper examination of your website?
I"m ready to go down on all 7 points.
I posted the big thing on "My words... Never Cease" because of your statement on the Torah being a closed cannon. If the Torah is a closed cannon, then I simply don't believe it because of what is stated in "My Words... Never Cease."

Regarding you "when" questions, we are not allowed to know when this will happen. All we know is that it did not happen yet, because these prophecies were not fulfilled yet. In fact, Jacob was about to reveal when the Final Redemption would arrive, but God caused him to forget what He was about to say, because it is God's secret and His alone. If people knew that the Messiah wasn't coming for another 100 years, they would feel free to live life the way they want and only repent later either closer to death or closer to the time he comes. God didn't want that; He wants us to wait in anticipation for the Messiah's arrival at any moment, thereby having to live in repentance every day. We don't need to know when; we will know when it happens. I will quote you something the Rambam (Maimonides) said regarding the criteria of the Messiah. But before that, let me point out something Asher Norman says in his 26 Reasons Why Jews Don't Beleive in Jesus:

"Faith" is irrelevant to the Jewish concept of the Messiah ben David because an individual either fulfills these prophetic criteria or he doesn't. Christianity requires faith that Jesus is their "messiah" precisely because he didn't fulfill any of the Jewish messianic criteria. Christianity's concept of faith in Jesus is therefore a substitute for this defect. It is important to note that the fulfillment of each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and therefore no faith is required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah ben David. For example, the entire world will be able to observe that the Temple has been rebuilt, the Jews have returned to Israel, the entire world believes in God, and the world is at peace. Virtually none of the Christian messianic "proofs" are empiracally verifiable."

Now, Maimonidies:

"We may assume that an individual is the Messiah ben David if he fulfills the following conditions: He must be a ruler, from the House of David, immersed in the Torah and its commandments like David his ancestor. He must also follow both the Written and the Oral Torah, lead all Jews back to the Torah, strengthen the observance of its laws, and fight God's battles. If one fulfills these conditions, then we may assume that he is the Messiah. If he does this successfully, and then rebuilds the Temple [Beis HaMikdash] on its original site and gathers all the dispersed Jews, then we may be certain that he is the Messiah. He will then perfect the entire world and bring all men to serve God in unity. It is true that the prophet Isaiah predicted, 'The wolf shall live with the sheep, the leopard shall lie down with the kid' (Isaiah 11:6). This, however, is merely an allegory, meaning that the Jews will live safely, even with the wicked nations, who are likened to wolves and leopards." (Talmud Yad, Melachim 11:4).

So you see, it will be very apparent when the Messiah actually comes. Regarding your post about the "sources," read my next post, and what they mean is that there is no scriptural basis for a second coming.

 

[Yanni]

This is from the following link: The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims

The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims
1) The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word “Mashiach”, whose translation is “Anointed”. It usually refers to a person initiated into G-d’s service by being anointed with oil. (Having oil poured on his head. Cf. Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3).

2) There are many Messiahs in the Bible. Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as “an anointed one” (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: “G-d forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the L-rd’s Messiah [Saul]...” I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6.

3) The Hebrew word “HaMashiach” (lit. the Messiah) describing a future anointed person to come does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Since the Bible makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Bible. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial. However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount- a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture.

4) Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of G-d. Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34.

5) Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5.

6) Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed one as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

7) The Bible never speaks about believing in the Messiah. Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith.

8) Because no person has ever fulfilled the picture painted in the Bible of this future King, Jewish people still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

9) The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his “first” coming. The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The “second coming” theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming (#5 above) don’t speak of someone returning, they have a “first coming” perspective.

10) According to Biblical tradition, Elijah the prophet will reappear before the coming of the Messiah (Malachi 4:5-6). In the Greek Testament, Jesus claims that John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13). However, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he denied it (John 1:21). The Gospel of Luke 1:17 tries to get around this problem by claiming that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. However:

a] Malachi predicted that Elijah himself would return, and not just someone coming in his spirit.
b] When asked about his identity, John the Baptist didn’t claim to have come in the spirit of Elijah - he claimed no association with Elijah at all.

c] The prophesy about the return of Elijah says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. There is no evidence that John the Baptist accomplished this.
​

11) According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.

There are two problems with this claim:

a) there is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;
b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).
​

To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:

a] There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.
b] Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

c] Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14;
​

I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)
d] Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.
​

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

In fact, Jacob was about to reveal when the Final Redemption would arrive, but God caused him to forget what He was about to say, because it is God's secret and His alone. If people knew that the Messiah wasn't coming for another 100 years, they would feel free to live life the way they want and only repent later either closer to death or closer to the time he comes. God didn't want that; He wants us to wait in anticipation for the Messiah's arrival at any moment, thereby having to live in repentance every day.

Actually, the one true God doesn't do prophecy. That's just something made up by the human mind back in the day when most people were magic-believers. I see belief in prophecy as interfering with a good understanding of God.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

This is from the following link: The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims

The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims
1) The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word “Mashiach”, whose translation is “Anointed”. It usually refers to a person initiated into G-d’s service by being anointed with oil. (Having oil poured on his head. Cf. Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3).

2) There are many Messiahs in the Bible. Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as “an anointed one” (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: “G-d forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the L-rd’s Messiah [Saul]...” I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6.

3) The Hebrew word “HaMashiach” (lit. the Messiah) describing a future anointed person to come does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Since the Bible makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Bible. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial. However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount- a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture.

4) Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of G-d. Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34.

5) Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5.

6) Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed one as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

7) The Bible never speaks about believing in the Messiah. Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith.

8) Because no person has ever fulfilled the picture painted in the Bible of this future King, Jewish people still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

9) The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his “first” coming. The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The “second coming” theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming (#5 above) don’t speak of someone returning, they have a “first coming” perspective.

10) According to Biblical tradition, Elijah the prophet will reappear before the coming of the Messiah (Malachi 4:5-6). In the Greek Testament, Jesus claims that John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13). However, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he denied it (John 1:21). The Gospel of Luke 1:17 tries to get around this problem by claiming that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. However:

a] Malachi predicted that Elijah himself would return, and not just someone coming in his spirit.
b] When asked about his identity, John the Baptist didn’t claim to have come in the spirit of Elijah - he claimed no association with Elijah at all.

c] The prophesy about the return of Elijah says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. There is no evidence that John the Baptist accomplished this.
​

11) According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.

There are two problems with this claim:

a) there is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;
b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).
​

To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:

a] There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.
b] Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

c] Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14;
​

I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)
d] Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.
​

I still don't think any of this trumps my statement on "My words...Never Cease" and how my testimony isn't based on a book.

 

[james2ko]

remain = perpetual
undecided = uncertainty

1.The difference between the definition of remain and perpetual is influenced by our diametric beliefs. According to scripture, everyone who ever lived and died without a fair opportunity to know Christ, will get their chance to meet Him personally and either accept or reject His way of life. This is why yoda will not remain in a perpetual state of uncertainty.

then it would be better to decide to do nothing even though they were innocent free beings... which is a choice no less...so then how can you reconcile that with being innocent because innocence is all about yes...no limits, boundless and free

2. Would you consider listening to your parents and embracing their beliefs as doing something or doing nothing?

one has to actively do something to get from point a to point b.i will not arrive to point b by repeating what i've already done, (which has proven itself useless over and over. and in case you haven't noticed, the thread implies yoda wants to come to some sort of a conclusion)...so now i need to actively figure out how to get to point b by doing something different. what's that saying? doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...is a sign of insanity.

3. I'm not sure how this applies to the OP or my reply

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse

you mean earthquakes, and diseases are god's way of punishing us? ."

4. According to examples set out in scripture, at times, yes.....but you failed to include the "minor" things also included in the passage like ...oh lets see.....air, food, and water..

"it was so obvious to them then no i wouldn't say gods perspective...that's being way too presumptuous of a being that isn't at all empirically experienced, it's paul's ignorant perspective.

5. Since God revealed His perspective to Paul (Gal 1:11-12) you are in essence implying God is ignorant which would be an illogical assumption because He knows you better than you know yourself (Luke 12:7) along with the names of every star(Psa 147:4)-- all 300 sextillion (that's 300 with 21 zeroes)!! So If you claim God is ignorant, where would that put you on the ignorameter?

"the revelation of truth is an empirical experience, observed by all...understood the same way...spiritual truth is just another way of saying, "i see the truth of the matter because i am spiritual" when this perspective is based on a subjective POV... and we've seen where that leads people to...

9/11 comes to mind and so do dead children of parents who believed in romans 1:20 and proclaimed their children healed because yes god has made himself clearly understood and no one is without excuse ...even jesus said mark 16:16

"16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

yes it's so abundantly clear, isn't it.... ?

6. Yeah...your interpretation is as clear as swamp water. Wow..you're in worse spiritual shape than I previously thought. You take a very simple verse like Rom 1:20 and malign, twist, and pervert the context and meaning to an incomprehensible, tangled mess in order to deny the existence of the One who knows more about you than you know about yourself. Yoda, if you are lurking, that's how you will end up, if you decide to go her route. Take note of what God has to say about the likes of waitasec:

Psalm 56:5 All day they twist my words; All their thoughts are against me for evil.

Proverbs 19:3 The foolishness of a man twists his way, And his heart frets against the LORD.

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

​

 

[earlwooters]

When you die, you will either know, or you will never know. If God does not exist, when you die, your brain will cease to function and all awareness is gone. Total blackness and no thought or memories. If God exists, when you die, a part of you, not visible in this world will migrate to a different plane of existence, and become altogether different, but you will still be. What, I cannot say. Nothing you do in this life will change that. But, all religions will tell you different. That is what all religions have in common.

 

[waitasec]

1.The difference between the definition of remain and perpetual is influenced by our diametric beliefs. According to scripture, everyone who ever lived and died without a fair opportunity to know Christ, will get their chance to meet Him personally and either accept or reject His way of life. This is why yoda will not remain in a perpetual state of uncertainty.

wow, i get it now...problem solved :sarcastic

2. Would you consider listening to your parents and embracing their beliefs as doing something or doing nothing?



3. I'm not sure how this applies to the OP or my reply

if a child knows a boundary is in place that child is not innocent...
since that child KNOWS, listening to their parent would be doing something.
but there is something very very wrong if child that only does what their parents tell them to do...wouldn't you say?
it's a display of a lack of self esteem and a slave mentality, or a well trained humanoid as it were.

4. According to examples set out in scripture, at times, yes.....

they were ultimately wrong. it's a non starter.

but you failed to include the "minor" things also included in the passage like ...oh lets see.....air, food, and water..

have you ever thought we adapted to our environment through the process off natural selection which is why we are beings that survive on these things?

5. Since God revealed His perspective to Paul (Gal 1:11-12) you are in essence implying God is ignorant which would be an illogical assumption because He knows you better than you know yourself (Luke 12:7) along with the names of every star(Psa 147:4)-- all 300 sextillion (that's 300 with 21 zeroes)!! So If you claim God is ignorant, where would that put you on the ignorameter?

yes the bible was written by man, therefore man created the god of the bible who is yes ignorant...remember you yourself said...

4. According to examples set out in scripture, at times, yes

in regards to saying disease and earthquakes were gods way of punishing us.
in which case we both know that is an all out fallacy...because today we know why those things happen, don't we?

6. Yeah...your interpretation is as clear as swamp water. Wow..you're in worse spiritual shape than I previously thought. You take a very simple verse like Rom 1:20 and malign, twist, and pervert the context and meaning to an incomprehensible, tangled mess in order to deny the existence of the One who knows more about you than you know about yourself.

Yoda, if you are lurking, that's how you will end up, if you decide to go her route. Take note of what God has to say about the likes of waitasec:

Psalm 56:5 All day they twist my words; All their thoughts are against me for evil.

Proverbs 19:3 The foolishness of a man twists his way, And his heart frets against the LORD.

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

​

interesting tactic...
however, i remain unimpressed

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Hey if it is disease and earthquakes that is your statement against God, I already answered that quite well I think.
and if you want to know "Why all the Mystery" Why faith is important
go read this article. It answers everything alot better than I can.
The Value of the Veil - Liahona Dec. 1991

If you want to know why trials are important, I can get you another ariticle very much like the veil article, just ask.

 

[rusra02]

And by this I assume you imply that said house plans/DNA was created by a creator? How did this creator come about? Did he...just happen?

-Benhamine

I'm not implying it, I'm saying it loudly and clearly. "A professor of molecular biology and computer science noted" "One gram of DNA, which when dry would occupy a volume of approximately one cubic centimeter, can store as much information as approximately one trillion CDs."(The Origin of Life - Five Questions Worth Asking)
That fact just scratches the surface of the unbelievable complexity and intelligence manifest in DNA.
Your question about the Creator is a mis-direction of the issue at hand, and has been discussed elsewhere.

 

[outhouse]

compexity, is not prrof of any kind for a mythical creator.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

God exists, no he dosn't exist, again pointless argument.
"I got an answer to my prayer!""No you didn't" "Yes I did" "No you didn't" Yes I did".....
*rolling of the eyes*

 

[Azekual]

This may assist you.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/118893-there-no-proof-god-exists.html

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

This may assist you.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/118893-there-no-proof-god-exists.html

All the proof I need is in prayer.
Also the theist believes that all things denote that there is a God and testify that He is there,
while the Atheist believes that all things denote that he isn't there.

I looked at your link, and deffinitly believe that Faith can blossom knowledge, and it would have been your decision for that to happen, for you chose to have faith from the beginning. So the knowledge wasn't just handed to you, but you chose to work for it.

 

[Azekual]

All the proof I need is in prayer.
Also the theist believes that all things denote that there is a God and testify that He is there,
while the Atheist believes that all things denote that he isn't there.

I looked at your link, and deffinitly believe that Faith can blossom knowledge, and it would have been your decision for that to happen, for you chose to have faith from the beginning. So the knowledge wasn't just handed to you, but you chose to work for it.

you didn't read the entire thing did you?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

you didn't read the entire thing did you?

I read the opening statement, but that was it.
Did you want me to read the entire thread?

 

[Azekual]

I read the opening statement, but that was it.
Did you want me to read the entire thread?

Yes, i think that will give you a better idea of what I wish to convey

 

[rusra02]

compexity, is not prrof of any kind for a mythical creator.

Right.. and houses build themselves...

 

[839311]

I can't decide whether God exists!
THoughts?

I was just thinking about the title for the thread. And it struck me how odd it is for someone to be unable to come to a decision about whether or not something exists.

I think it would be best to hold off on coming to a decision about whether or not something exists... until you know it does :cigar: