I challenge a Creationist to debate

[Danmac]

So let's just agree that the Earth is old...

This is by far the easiest debate that I have been in.

 

[Orias]

What gives way for one to believe in a creator, when we are of the very essence of the stars?

 

[evolved yet?]

Evolution to some degree is consistent with the creation story. By that I mean... Molecules to man is consistent with man being formed from the earth itself.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I don't believe that man poofed out of thin air. I believe there is too much evidence that supports that part of evolution. However, I do not agree that there is only one common ancestor for all species. I believe that humankind was created as distinct from all other creatures. I do not believe that we are kin to the animal kingdom. I do agree with micro evolution. That is, variatian within a creted kind. I do not believe in macroevolution. That is, one kind evolving into another kind.

Please define kind so I may find evidence of one turning into another, I will start with this:

Homology
Why would a creator make it so that all animals have things in common? How come some species look almost exactly the same? This according to the theory of evolution is because they are closely related, if you look at the limbs of a pterosaur, bird, whale, human, bat, or anything else they are just a change in the shape of this bone and a lengthening of that finger away from being exactly the same as any of the other animal limbs:

The Fossil Record
The fossil record is unfortunately very poor, but there is still signs of evolution. We have found Fossilized Transitional Fossils between most major lineages including Reptile to Bird which includes:
Archaeopteryx
Micro-raptor
Sinosauropteryx
These are just a few of the fossils in this area. There is a lot of other fossils for other intermediate chains including the fish to tetrapod transition:
Acanthostega
Tiktaalik
Ichythostega
There is others too for other transitions and intermediates that can be found in more detail at the intermediate forms list at talk.origins.
The Fact that fossils actually exist is evidence for evolution because a young earth wouldn't have enough time for fossils to form.
Unity of life and Nested Hierarchies
Why would a creator make anything look alike? How come no bats have feathers? A creator could have done that, but why can we classify things, the evolutionary perspective can say it is because if they have recent ancestors they share more traits. Why didn't an all mighty creator put a octopussycat somewhere or a mermaid or a hippocampus( greek legendary fish-horse hybrid), the reason if you accept evolution is because that couldn't evolve with functional intermediate steps.
Ontogeny
Though few humans have a tail at birth all humans have a tail during development. Another example is we go through a three kidneys in development the first is a jawless fish-like kidney and a Reptile-like kidney.
Imperfection, Unintelligent Design and Sub-optimality
Perfection is the mark of a creator, imperfection is the mark of evolution. Some examples include Blind spots, the respiratory system crossing the gastrointestinal system( causing choking) and other problems such as the laryngeal nerve.
Gene Homology
Gene comparisons compare different genes to see how they're similar and if evolution is correct, things probably more closely related will have genomes with less differences in the genes.
Pseudogenes or Junk DNA
99% of the human genome is made of DNA that has no use this is called Junk DNA or Pseudogenes, why would a creator put so much useless stuff in there, that will just use up energy to replicate all the extra DNA, including a gene that is used to produce artificial vitamin C that is no longer functional in humans.

 

[Danmac]

Please define kind so I may find evidence of one turning into another, I will start with this:

1} Reproductive isolation: In the beginning God "created" parent kinds. The wolf for example is the parent of all dog species. Animals from a different kind can never breed with any species that are part of the dog kind.

Note: Since mutations, natural selection, and other mechanisms alter the original information during the reproductive process, some species of a particular kind would eventually lose the necessary information to breed with their parent kind. Because of this they would be reproductively isolated from their own kind. Hence a species from a parent kind, but reproductively isolated from their own kind. IMO

2) All species from a particular kind share similar fundamental features, which is easily recognized by visual observation.

For example: Zebras, donkeys, horses, etc. possess unique features, but the fundamental features are the same. The same with the cat family. Lions, tigers, house cats, bobcats, panthers, leopards, etc., all possess unique characteristics, but quick glance is all that is necessary for one to agree that all belong to the cat family.
IMO

Homology
Why would a creator make it so that all animals have things in common?

Common they may be, but necessary for them to function properly. IMO

How come some species look almost exactly the same?

Because they are from the same parent kind. IMO

 

[DeitySlayer]

I do agree with micro evolution. That is, variatian within a creted kind. I do not believe in macroevolution. That is, one kind evolving into another kind.

'Kind' being a term you have yet to define.

 

[DeitySlayer]

Danmac, have a shot at explaining atavisms from a Creationist perspective. I'd be interested to see what you come up with.

 

[jonman122]

Because they are from the same parent kind. IMO

that statement = macro evolution

 

[evolved yet?]

Please define kind so I may find evidence of one turning into another, I will start with this:
The Fossil Record
The fossil record is unfortunately very poor, but there is still signs of evolution. We have found Fossilized Transitional Fossils between most major lineages including Reptile to Bird which includes:
Archaeopteryx
Micro-raptor
Sinosauropteryx
These are just a few of the fossils in this area. There is a lot of other fossils for other intermediate chains including the fish to tetrapod transition:
Acanthostega
Tiktaalik
Ichythostega
There is others too for other transitions and intermediates that can be found in more detail at the intermediate forms list at talk.origins.
The Fact that fossils actually exist is evidence for evolution because a young earth wouldn't have enough time for fossils to form.
Unity of life and Nested Hierarchies
Why would a creator make anything look alike? How come no bats have feathers? A creator could have done that, but why can we classify things, the evolutionary perspective can say it is because if they have recent ancestors they share more traits. Why didn't an all mighty creator put a octopussycat somewhere or a mermaid or a hippocampus( greek legendary fish-horse hybrid), the reason if you accept evolution is because that couldn't evolve with functional intermediate steps.
Ontogeny
Though few humans have a tail at birth all humans have a tail during development. Another example is we go through a three kidneys in development the first is a jawless fish-like kidney and a Reptile-like kidney.
Imperfection, Unintelligent Design and Sub-optimality
Perfection is the mark of a creator, imperfection is the mark of evolution. Some examples include Blind spots, the respiratory system crossing the gastrointestinal system( causing choking) and other problems such as the laryngeal nerve.
Gene Homology
Gene comparisons compare different genes to see how they're similar and if evolution is correct, things probably more closely related will have genomes with less differences in the genes.
Pseudogenes or Junk DNA
99% of the human genome is made of DNA that has no use this is called Junk DNA or Pseudogenes, why would a creator put so much useless stuff in there, that will just use up energy to replicate all the extra DNA, including a gene that is used to produce artificial vitamin C that is no longer functional in humans.
Atavisms and Vestigial Organs
There is also the organs that we don't use but have like the appendix, and some of our arm muscles that actually aren't present in some people. There is also Atavisms which are rare traits found in a population like, Human tails and Whale Legs as well as many others not mentioned hear.

Here is a list of what you still need to find an answer for.

 

[Danmac]

Danmac, have a shot at explaining atavisms from a Creationist perspective. I'd be interested to see what you come up with.

Some genetic information is not lost, but dormant.

 

[evolved yet?]

Some genetic information is not lost?
well that would require an ancestor with the genes so there must be have been a walking whale some time in the past.
Are you sure you are not an evolutionist?

 

[evolved yet?]

I think he has identified himself as a Progressive Creationist, by far the hardest to destroy the personal belief of, you can find out about them on T.O or Wiki.

 

[evolved yet?]

Please define kind so I may find evidence of one turning into another, I will start with this:
The Fossil Record
The fossil record is unfortunately very poor, but there is still signs of evolution. We have found Fossilized Transitional Fossils between most major lineages including Reptile to Bird which includes:
Archaeopteryx
Micro-raptor
Sinosauropteryx
These are just a few of the fossils in this area. There is a lot of other fossils for other intermediate chains including the fish to tetrapod transition:
Acanthostega
Tiktaalik
Ichythostega
There is others too for other transitions and intermediates that can be found in more detail at the intermediate forms list at talk.origins.
The Fact that fossils actually exist is evidence for evolution because a young earth wouldn't have enough time for fossils to form.
Unity of life and Nested Hierarchies
Why would a creator make anything look alike? How come no bats have feathers? A creator could have done that, but why can we classify things, the evolutionary perspective can say it is because if they have recent ancestors they share more traits. Why didn't an all mighty creator put a octopussycat somewhere or a mermaid or a hippocampus( greek legendary fish-horse hybrid), the reason if you accept evolution is because that couldn't evolve with functional intermediate steps.
Ontogeny
Though few humans have a tail at birth all humans have a tail during development. Another example is we go through a three kidneys in development the first is a jawless fish-like kidney and a Reptile-like kidney.
Imperfection, Unintelligent Design and Sub-optimality
Perfection is the mark of a creator, imperfection is the mark of evolution. Some examples include Blind spots, the respiratory system crossing the gastrointestinal system( causing choking) and other problems such as the laryngeal nerve.
Gene Homology
Gene comparisons compare different genes to see how they're similar and if evolution is correct, things probably more closely related will have genomes with less differences in the genes.
Pseudogenes or Junk DNA
99% of the human genome is made of DNA that has no use this is called Junk DNA or Pseudogenes, why would a creator put so much useless stuff in there, that will just use up energy to replicate all the extra DNA, including a gene that is used to produce artificial vitamin C that is no longer functional in humans.
Atavisms and Vestigial Organs
There is also the organs that we don't use but have like the appendix, and some of our arm muscles that actually aren't present in some people. There is also Atavisms which are rare traits found in a population like, Human tails and Whale Legs as well as many others not mentioned hear.

Here is a list of what you still need to find an answer for.

 

[Danmac]

Danmac:

Would you set out please the hypothesis you're defending? Is it just the idea that God created all things, or is it more specific? What is your explanation for the diversity of life we see on earth? Just describe it in your own words, at what time exactly what happened.

Once you state it, then you can debate it.

1) God used molecules to man evolution as the vehicle by which all creatures exist. That is supported by science.

2) Humans are a higher life form that all other creatures. Morality sets us apart from all other species. We are the only "kind" that has a justice system. We are the only "kind" that holds others accountable. Therefore we are distinct from all other creatures. That is inconsistent with macroevolution.

3) God created all parent kinds with "all" of the information necessary for all of the variation we see within every "kind". That is consistent with natural selection, and microevolution.

4) Due to information loss some animals reach a genetic dead end and will go extinct rather than produce new information that would enable them to survive. The Panda bear for example. That is inconsistent with "mutations = new information.

 

[evolved yet?]

1) God used molecules to man evolution as the vehicle by which all creatures exist. That is supported by science.

2) Humans are a higher life form that all other creatures. Morality sets us apart from all other species. We are the only "kind" that has a justice system. We are the only "kind" that holds others accountable. Therefore we are distinct from all other creatures. That is inconsistent with macroevolution.

3) God created all parent kinds with "all" of the information necessary for all of the variation we see within every "kind". That is consistent with natural selection, and microevolution.

4) Due to information loss some animals reach a genetic dead end and will go extinct rather than produce new information that would enable them to survive. The Panda bear for example. That is inconsistent with "mutations = new information.

1)Molecules to Man is completely incorrect, it is more like Molecules to complex reproducing chemicals to protobionts to bacteria to primitive eukaryotes to multicellular life forms and Vertebrates to Fish, to Amphibians to reptiles to mammals to prosimians to monkeys to apes to Homo. Erectus to man.
2)Morals are possible under an evolutionary theory look to this:
Why I don't eat babies
3)This is not an empirical hypothesis.
4)This is not inconsistent it's just another mechanism of evolution because some species just don't evolve fast enough or they don't have a source of food, if I kill every pigeon in a year or two they will not have time to adapt.
5)You still have not attempted to attack any of the evidence I provided or see this:
[youtube]TUxLR9hdorI[/youtube]
YouTube - Evidence for Evolution, Part III

 

[evolved yet?]

Progressive creationism is the religious belief that God created new forms of life gradually, over a period of hundreds of millions of years. As a form of Old Earth creationism, it accepts mainstream geological and cosmological estimates for the age of the Earth, but posits that the new "kinds" of plants and animals that have appeared successively over the planet's history represent instances of God directly intervening to create those new types by means outside the realm of science. Progressive creationists generally reject macroevolution because they believe it to be biologically untenable and not supported by the fossil record, and they generally reject the concept of universal descent from a last universal ancestor.

I'm pretty sure this describes his beliefs.

 

[javajo]

All I know is we're all here! Hi! I have read some stuff about the evolution vs creation and all the inbetweens. Either way here we all are. Hi again. I read something somewhere at some time where the author said all the fossil evidence seemed to appear all at once, like he was indicating some sort of catastrophe? He said that's why sea shells fossils are found on mountains and tiger fossils are found in regions where they aren't thought to have lived. And something about fossil graveyards?? Like, a bunch of fossils, I think of the same kind, would be found in one place, like where people were mining or something. What's up with that? If someone with a scientific background can help, that would be cool, cuz, I did not quite understand...thanks!

 

[evolved yet?]

[youtube]TUxLR9hdorI[/youtube]
YouTube - Evidence for Evolution, Part III

I think you should watch this.

 

[DeitySlayer]

Hi again.

Welcome

He said that's why sea shells fossils are found on mountains and tiger fossils are found in regions where they aren't thought to have lived.

Both are accounted for through plate tectonics. The plates 'floating' on the mantle are constantly shifting. When the dinosaurs died out, India was still separate from Asia and the Himalayas didn't exist. When the subcontinent crashed into Asia, the Tethys seabed was forced upwards at the collision margin, taking shells present in the seabed with it. Hence shells up in the Himalayas. As for the tiger fossils point, ditto, or possibly just a tiger wandering around and getting lost. If a North Pacific grey whale can turn up off the coast of Israel, a tiger can go a little walkabout as well. Bear in mind also that climatic and forest ranges were different in the past, and so what might be 'wrong' for a tiger now might have been perfectly fine back then.

And something about fossil graveyards?? Like, a bunch of fossils, I think of the same kind, would be found in one place, like where people were mining or something.

There are some places naturally predisposed to the formation of fossils, due to the nature of their soils or a particular natural phenomenon at that point (e.g. tar pits at La Brea), or a lack of tectonics which prevents the fossils getting crushed and melted underground.

What's up with that? If someone with a scientific background can help, that would be cool, cuz, I did not quite understand...thanks!

Hope I helped clear all of that up

 

[jonman122]

2) Humans are a higher life form that all other creatures. Morality sets us apart from all other species. We are the only "kind" that has a justice system. We are the only "kind" that holds others accountable. Therefore we are distinct from all other creatures. That is inconsistent with macroevolution.

you do realize this has been proven false? that it's proven animals do have morals?

 

[evolved yet?]

Some people just don't want to give up the idea of being special.