I disagree with the Ibn Ezra and therefore I feel bad.

[Jake1001]

I have been looking for a place to put this - it is more of a free form problem, rather than one with a tidy answer, so I'll lay it out and you can move to the next thread.

In this past week's parsha, Ki Tavo, we read at the beginning of the seventh aliya (text and translations from sefaria.org)

וַיִּקְרָ֥א מֹשֶׁ֛ה אֶל־כָּל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֲלֵהֶ֑ם אַתֶּ֣ם רְאִיתֶ֗ם אֵ֣ת כָּל־אֲשֶׁר֩ עָשָׂ֨ה יְהוָ֤ה לְעֵֽינֵיכֶם֙ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרַ֔יִם לְפַרְעֹ֥ה וּלְכָל־עֲבָדָ֖יו וּלְכָל־אַרְצֽוֹ׃

Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: You have seen all that the LORD did before your very eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his courtiers and to his whole country:

---------------
Question -- to whom is he speaking? I mean that pretty specifically. I know the general answer is "the Children of Israel" but at this point, who was that?

Everyone who was over 20 years old at the time of the exodus (except Joshua and Kalev I think, plus Moshe, himself) was dead. But the population had not decreased so there must have been births during the 40 years in the desert. This large chunk of the population, born after the Exodus would NOT have seen what this pasuk refers to, or the verse after it ("הַמַּסּוֹת֙ הַגְּדֹלֹ֔ת אֲשֶׁ֥ר רָא֖וּ עֵינֶ֑יךָ הָאֹתֹ֧ת וְהַמֹּפְתִ֛ים הַגְּדֹלִ֖ים הָהֵֽם׃

the wondrous feats that you saw with your own eyes, those prodigious signs and marvels.")

Why claim that the people to whom he spoke saw what they didn't?

I have found 2 commentators who address this. The first is the Ibn Ezra who, according to sefaria, writes,
"You have seen, as well as the subsequent verse “I led you…” [: 4] and the subsequent mention of how ‘Og came out to wage war [: 6] are to be understood in the sense of, “There are among you those who have witnessed the signs which God performed in Egypt;"

So the Ibn Ezra's answer is "the text says 1 thing, but it means something else entirely." I find this wholly unsatisfying as it never addresses the remaining question "then why write it that way?" The answer to that might be a discussion of poetic language or figures of speech, or something else which ignores the issue.

The only other commentator I found on sefaria who brings it up is the more modern "Birkat Asher" who writes שאלתי עצמי, והא בסוף מסעי המדבר עומדים, וכל יוצאי מצרים כבר אינם. (I translate it is "I asked myself, and yet, they were standing after all their travels and all those who left Egypt were not there!") and his second comment which he views as an answer is that this shows that those under 20 at the Exodus weren't dead. In other words "SOME of you" is the meaning. He falls in line with the Ibn Ezra.

I remain unconvinced. The text makes a series of claims. In other places, the text has heaven and earth act as witnesses and the commentators don't ignore this, but discuss its significance. When it says that Jews not yet born witnessed the revelation at Sinai, no one explains this to mean "some." But here, the only explanation is "he means 'some'" and even that seems like a convenience, an afterthought brought about only by one classical commentary.

So now I feel like I'm missing something -- is it wrong of me to discount the simple (and overly simplistic) Ibn Ezra? The guy was wicked smart and I must be missing something. Right?

Help.

Indeed, RR, Ibn Erza is the answer they give for all the questions they don’t know the answer to. I’ll let Jay chew on it a bissel and then I’ll chime in (note all Yiddish phrases are italicized). .

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Another two considerations. If, as we say in the Haggada, every generation is to have seen themselves as if they had also been in Mitzrayim that would mean that the generation born in the midbar would have had to seen themselves the same way. Also, we also have to assume that there were babies born during the makot in Mitzrayim who were there but would not have remembered it.

Also, if you look at the Rambam's words about why "we" accepted Mosheh Rabbeinu it also comes off the same way.

משנה תורה - הלכות יסודי התורה ח:א-ב
ח,א משה רבנו--לא האמינו בו ישראל, מפני האותות שעשה: שהמאמין על פי האותות--יש בליבו דופי, שאפשר שייעשה האות בלאט וכישוף. אלא כל האותות שעשה במדבר, לפי הצורך עשאן--לא להביא ראיה על הנבואה: צרך להשקיע את המצריים, קרע את הים והצלילם בו. צרכנו למזון, הוריד לנו את המן. צמאו, בקע להם את האבן. כפרו בו עדת קורח, בלעה אותם הארץ. וכן, שאר כל האותות
ח,ב ובמה האמינו בו, במעמד הר סיניי: שעינינו ראו, ולא זר, ואוזנינו שמעו, ולא אחר--האש והקולות והלפידים​

So, as you can see the Rambam says "we saw.." something that only the generation that was there saw. I.e. even if we "personally" weren't there the connection between us and the generation that was there is unbroken, at least for a large enough number of us, and therefore it was as if we were there with them. It is no different than how when I lived in America there are African Americans who talk about the enslavement in the 1700's to 1800's as if it happened to them personally, when in reality it happened to some of their ancestors generations ago.

Also, let's not forget what the haggada states about the response to the rasha:

אַף אַתָּה הַקְהֶה
אֶת שִנָּיו וֶאֱמֹר לוֹ: "בַעֲבוּר זֶה
עָּשָּה יְהוָּה לִי, בְצֵאתִי,
מִמִּצְרָּיִם" (שמות יג,ח)--"לִי",
וְלֹא לוֹ; אִלוּ הָּיָּה שָּם, לֹא הָּיָּה
נִגְאָל​

 

[Jake1001]

Here's my best guess:

Maybe the idea is that they saw it written in the newly completed Torah? The Torah contains details of the miracles and plagues that would not be known by anyone other than G-d, Moshe, and Pharaoh.

With the Torah completed, and 40 years of instruction, each person was able to see these details written with their own eyes and feel it in their own hearts even though they did not experience it first hand. If so, then having The Torah + Moshe's teaching is better than experiencing it first hand. And that justifies 29:8.

Keep in mind we are really talking 10 Commandments until around 587BC

 

[Rival]

Keep in mind we are really talking 10 Commandments until around 587BC

Not everyone believes this. Some folks actually believe in G-d revealing the Torah on Sinai.

 

[Jake1001]

Not everyone believes this. Some folks actually believe in G-d revealing the Torah on Sinai.

My own view is it was revealed metaphorically. It wasn’t until Ezekial that it was written down. Have you read “Who Wrote the Bible” ?

 

[dybmh]

Keep in mind we are really talking 10 Commandments until around 587BC

If the OP held this view, the question would be much different, right?

 

[Jake1001]

If the OP held this view, the question would be much different, right?

This question should perhaps be directed toward RR ?

 

[dybmh]

This question should perhaps be directed toward RR ?

relevance?