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I Dislike Being a Stick in the Mud...

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I am beginning to think that a lot of my fellow Christians don't know what it is that Jesus (Yeshua) even taught. And you know what, it makes me sad. I certainly don't want to judge, I certainly don't want to condemn anyone, and I don't want to preach. What I would like to do is have this discussion, and I hope it stays a discussion.
I see people of my faith cursing others and I am thinking "We are commanded NOT to do that!". We are supposed to be loving toward everyone and that includes people we believe are sinning. On top of that, it is a Christian's belief that we all sin, ALL OF US.

If people are willing, I'd like to discuss what you guys, as Christians, think of this sort of thing.
 

Diederick`

Member
I think that one of the problems Christianity has is that its foundation, the Bible, has been opened up for interpretation. There is no absolute authority anymore, at least none which actually answers - considering Elohim is such an absolute authority, though chronically unresponsive. That's the reason why there are so many different sects of Christianity (literally thousands), and in my opinion the reason why Christianity is becoming more and more a personal religion, instead of an institutionalised one.

I also think that being a decent human being brought you to your view and, if you will, 'type' of Christianity; rather than divine inspiration through revelation or reading the Bible. Because reading the Bible and 'personal revelation' seems to lead people to all kinds of ideas about the world, including some pretty extreme and downright evil ones.

I applaud the fact that you are looking to debate your position, this is the kind of Christianity I can appreciate.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I know this is a 'DIR' but if you don't mind my two cents: maybe it's time to find your own truth. I had to get away from my strict Christian upbringing to truly find out what Yeshua was trying to teach us. If you delete me I understand.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
I am beginning to think that a lot of my fellow Christians don't know what it is that Jesus (Yeshua) even taught. And you know what, it makes me sad. I certainly don't want to judge, I certainly don't want to condemn anyone, and I don't want to preach. What I would like to do is have this discussion, and I hope it stays a discussion.
I see people of my faith cursing others and I am thinking "We are commanded NOT to do that!". We are supposed to be loving toward everyone and that includes people we believe are sinning. On top of that, it is a Christian's belief that we all sin, ALL OF US.

If people are willing, I'd like to discuss what you guys, as Christians, think of this sort of thing.

Hello ChristineES, I don't know if you consider me a Christian or not (I assure you that I am).....but I just wanted to tell you that I have always found you to be extremely fair and non-judgmental in your responses on these forums. You have shown yourself to be someone who sees the need to BE Christian, rather than just call yourself one and to show up to church every week where a lot of people leave God and Jesus in the church...they don't take them home. :(

What you speak of is one of the reason why I left the mainstream church system. We all know that Jesus condemned hypocrisy, and yet it is very evident that the church system has fallen victim to the same complacency that the Jews fell victim to in the first century. Like those Jews who relied on the fact that they were "Jewish", these ones are so convinced that just identifying as "Christian" means that they are "saved". This is simply not true. Unless we strive to find the "cramped and narrow road" and are determined every day to stay on that road to life, we will not make it. (Matt 24:13)

The same spirit that awakened the individual Jews to listen to Jesus may now be prompting you. If you are being moved to see things as God sees them, perhaps it is time to explore your options.

All the best.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
One of the hardest things for me to deal with online is people who simply cannot even consider the possibility that they may be wrong about some point of Christian doctrine. Of course we all have our beliefs and we think we're probably right in what we believe. That's to be expected. What I think we need to rise above is the idea that if you don't believe as I do, God's either going to make sure that you either suffer in eternal agony or are merely extinguished as if you were nothing more to Him than a candle. None of us know the mind of God!

I enjoy discussing Christian doctrines with people who interpret them differently than I do, but I have little patience with anyone who is unable to be even the slightest bit open-minded. On the other hand, here are some examples of comments I love to hear:

"That's an interesting perspective. I hadn't thought of it that way before."
"I can see that you've studied this matter, and I can understand why you have come to the conclusions you have."
"I'm not sure I can agree with you, but you've raised some good points for me to consider."
"While I interpret that verse differently than you do, I can see how your interpretation has value and logic."
"Great example! I was unfamiliar with that verse."
"I love it when we can find common ground, even though we will always disagree on certain things."
"That's what I admire about your denomination!"

I can develop close relationships with people who are respectful of my beliefs, even if they believe something very, very different themselves -- and enjoy a good debate as long as the other person isn't determined to fight to the death to prove that he is right. I back out of discussions when they start turning nasty for the simple reason that my religion teaches that contention is of the devil. I do believe we have the responsibility to stand up for what we believe, but in the end, there is not one of us who is in the position of condemning another one of us or saying what God thinks of someone else's beliefs. That's God's job. Period.

I can also see through thinly-veiled attempts to proselyte and have no use for people who use such tactics. If someone is sincerely and actively looking for a belief system that he can comfortably embrace, and I believe (based on things he's said) that Mormonism might be a good fit, I may suggest that he consider looking into it. Otherwise, I wouldn't think of trying to subtly drop a hint that I've got something he needs and that he'll live to regret it if he doesn't convert. Ugh!
 
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Thana

Lady
I am beginning to think that a lot of my fellow Christians don't know what it is that Jesus (Yeshua) even taught. And you know what, it makes me sad. I certainly don't want to judge, I certainly don't want to condemn anyone, and I don't want to preach. What I would like to do is have this discussion, and I hope it stays a discussion.
I see people of my faith cursing others and I am thinking "We are commanded NOT to do that!". We are supposed to be loving toward everyone and that includes people we believe are sinning. On top of that, it is a Christian's belief that we all sin, ALL OF US.

If people are willing, I'd like to discuss what you guys, as Christians, think of this sort of thing.

I used to be one of them.

I called myself a Christian, But I never even read the bible! And yet I still somehow thought of myself as saved and a 'Christian'. I was just raised Christian, Had been baptized and went to church a few times and I was 100% sure that qualified me for Salvation.

But I wasn't loving or kind, I wasn't patient or humble. I didn't know Jesus, But I used His name in front of others. It shames me to think that people might have considered me an example of Christianity, when the truth was I had no idea about any of it.

I don't like to judge others either, So I hope that the people who are 'Christians' like I used to be 'Christian' will find God like I did. That where they are now is just a stepping stone to a relationship with Him.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I used to be one of them.

I called myself a Christian, But I never even read the bible! And yet I still somehow thought of myself as saved and a 'Christian'. I was just raised Christian, Had been baptized and went to church a few times and I was 100% sure that qualified me for Salvation.

But I wasn't loving or kind, I wasn't patient or humble. I didn't know Jesus, But I used His name in front of others. It shames me to think that people might have considered me an example of Christianity, when the truth was I had no idea about any of it.

I don't like to judge others either, So I hope that the people who are 'Christians' like I used to be 'Christian' will find God like I did. That where they are now is just a stepping stone to a relationship with Him.
It sounds like you've come to find a very good place.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
First off, I believe that ANYONE who believes in Jesus and obeys His commands is a Christian, even those who have totally different doctrines than I have.

You guys have said some great things. For one thing, Christians are supposed to have a united front. Jesus said to His Apostles: (paraphrased by me) "People will know you are my disciples by your love of one another". I've heard people saying vile things lately, not only to non-Christians but to other Christians, too. Saying vile things, the way I've understood my faith, is a big "no-no".
Christians are supposed to be humble, too. We're supposed to turn the other cheek (which doesn't mean we have to put up with a lot of abuse, though).
We are supposed to be examples. None of us is perfect, and we will have times when we're not so admirable, but we're supposed to at least try.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
First off, I believe that ANYONE who believes in Jesus and obeys His commands is a Christian, even those who have totally different doctrines than I have.

You guys have said some great things. For one thing, Christians are supposed to have a united front. Jesus said to His Apostles: (paraphrased by me) "People will know you are my disciples by your love of one another". I've heard people saying vile things lately, not only to non-Christians but to other Christians, too. Saying vile things, the way I've understood my faith, is a big "no-no".
Christians are supposed to be humble, too. We're supposed to turn the other cheek (which doesn't mean we have to put up with a lot of abuse, though).
We are supposed to be examples. None of us is perfect, and we will have times when we're not so admirable, but we're supposed to at least try.


"Christians" usually tend to be more "Paulenian". This is way I use the term "Jesusonian".
 

catch22

Active Member
Yeeeaaaah. I'm primarily a debater on this site, so I'm often informed I'm rude or harsh or insensitive or brash...

In fairness, my wife says the same thing. I really do work on this... limited success thus far. Alas, rough love is what I know, so I often toil in this consideration: is it the truth that pierces and people hate to hear it, or am I just a jerk face?

I could use some prayer on that front. ;) I know some posters in here I've debated for doctrinal differences. Alas, I mean no harm to anyone, despite how my writing style comes off...

Keep on working on it, all I can do... and if any of you see me crossing lines in any of my posts, please feel free to PM me and let me know. Accountability is essential and it helps if fellow believers support one another there.
 

Diederick`

Member
(...) You guys have said some great things. For one thing, Christians are supposed to have a united front. Jesus said to His Apostles: (paraphrased by me) "People will know you are my disciples by your love of one another". I've heard people saying vile things lately, not only to non-Christians but to other Christians, too. Saying vile things, the way I've understood my faith, is a big "no-no".
Christians are supposed to be humble, too. We're supposed to turn the other cheek (which doesn't mean we have to put up with a lot of abuse, though).
We are supposed to be examples. None of us is perfect, and we will have times when we're not so admirable, but we're supposed to at least try.
I like this approach to your faith, but I think in current circumstances it is to be expected that the 'tribe' fights back against the rising tide of other-religions and secularism. And a tribe that fights back is more likely to take those parts of the Bible to heart which reflect fitting emotions. I'm not sure 'scapegoating' is exactly accurate, but the majority of Christians who have chosen to show their teeth to me or which I have witnessed, do not seem to know where to direct their anger.

I think this is the sign of a phenomenon dying out. Generally speaking, organized religion in its current form, with so much authority and so totalitarian, won't survive much longer - at least not in modern societies. People aren't stupid anymore and can educate themselves independently and easily through the huge availability of information. The anti-humanist aspects which have tainted and continue to taint conservative Christianity will be its downfall. Significant social advances are pushed regardless of what the hateful old farts think, and rightly so. Secular justice is outwitting conservative Abrahamic values and (young) sensible Christians support it, because secular justice makes sense - Leviticus doesn't (as a tool for social justice).

By expressing humanist values - basically being a decent human being, Christians can save their religion. It's only the backward who are still enthused by bigotry on the pulpit, and that is a demographic which is historically the least succesful. Young people are smarter than their parents and it will take more brainwashing than most will be able to muster, in this day and age, to keep them from making up their own mind and becoming sensible people.

For the few months I identified as Christian, I saw God as the force of good in the world. And 'good' is really not always subjective, especially not when it comes to social matters. Human traits, needs and values are well understood and based on those, it doesn't take more than just your average human mind to identify what is good and what is bad behaviour. Not fully understanding a social issue is not an excuse to turn to a literal interpretation of the Bible, no one has needed the Bible to identify that stealing is wrong, and no one should turn to the Bible to validate their fear of homosexuals.

The Bible, clergy and churches are tools to establish the Christian Abrahamic faith for oneself. Not to dictate social norms and not to influence politics. Faith is all it should be, and needs to be. Being a decent human being takes a healthy mind. Being a good Christian shouldn't be at odds with that.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I do enjoy discussing various topics here whether or not I am in agreement with another or our perspectives differ. I believe as a Christian it is important to be faithful to Christ and sound biblical doctrine, but I think it is also very important to be respectful of each person even when disagreeing. The scriptures say to speak the truth in love. I'm sure I often fail, but my heart's desire is to show Christ-like love.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I have been watching the thread, JWs teach a different gospel. While I have some significant disagreements with JWs over various doctrines, I am positively amazed at the amount of hate that can be found on that thread. There are nearly 1000 posts so far and it's just disgusting the lengths some people will go to to cast other people's beliefs in a bad light. What's wrong with us Christians anyway?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have been watching the thread, JWs teach a different gospel. While I have some significant disagreements with JWs over various doctrines, I am positively amazed at the amount of hate that can be found on that thread.
You share with the Jehovah's Witnesses the opinion that exposure is hate.

Luke 8:17

"LOOK!", says the child, "the king has no clothes!" But everyone says to it "SHUT UP".
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You share with the Jehovah's Witnesses the opinion that exposure is hate.
Wow. I'm surprised to hear you say that, savagewind. "Exposure" is one thing. But I think that thread has gone way, way beyond "exposure." It's one thing to debate a particular point of doctrine or practice, but quite another to start a thread for the sole purpose of venting your hatred. The thread was started with a complete lack of Christian love and that ought to be evident to anyone.

And if you think CARM Is a reliable source of information on what's "Christian" and what's not, you don't know much about CARM. See I don't know how much of what is said on that thread is fact and how much isn't. I just know that I see a lot of bull$hit posted about what Mormonism "supposedly" believes, and because of my experience in that arena, I just can't bring myself to be a part of it.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wow. I'm surprised to hear you say that, savagewind. "Exposure" is one thing. But I think that thread has gone way, way beyond "exposure." It's one thing to debate a particular point of doctrine or practice, but quite another to start a thread for the sole purpose of venting your hatred. The thread was started with a complete lack of Christian love and that ought to be evident to anyone.

And if you think CARM Is a reliable source of information on what's "Christian" and what's not, you don't know much about CARM.
That is your opinion that it was "started with a complete lack of love". I agree that the repetitiveness of it is like some kind of drunken brawl, but the truth is not hate. You know that. I know for a fact that those two posters who are going on and on and on are telling the truth. It is my opinion the Jehovah's Witnesses are not.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
That is your opinion that it was "started with a complete lack of love".
Yes it is "my opinion." It's also my opinion that the most significant accomplishment of that particular thread thus far is to make Satan very, very pleased. I can't imagine that Jesus is up in His heaven rooting either side on.

You know that. I know for a fact that those two posters who are going on and on and on are telling the truth.
In all honesty, given who is doing most of the talking, I really can't know anything for sure. My own personal experiences with both individuals has led me to know for a fact that they do not always speak the truth. They may be doing so in that particular thread, but with their history, I just have to be skeptical.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes it is "my opinion." It's also my opinion that the most significant accomplishment of that particular thread thus far is to make Satan very, very pleased. I can't imagine that Jesus is up in His heaven rooting either side on.

In all honesty, given who is doing most of the talking, I really can't know anything for sure. My own personal experiences with both individuals has led me to know for a fact that they do not always speak the truth. They may be doing so in that particular thread, but with their history, I just have to be skeptical.
Skeptical is good. Do you know that scepticism is not allowed within the confines of the Jehovah's Witness religion?
 
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