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"I Don't Have to Prove a Negative"

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The rules of debate aren't arbitrary, they enable a rational exchange of ideas.
Not wanting to debate is also OK, but interrupting a serious debate between adults with rule-less small talk is naughty. (Or rude if you happen to be an adult who should know better.)

Well, the problem is in effect if there are limits to evidence and rational for these debates.

You can make 3 postions out of this:
- There is no evidence and ratinoality at all, because it is in effect nothing but ideas in the mind of a person.
- There can be given a postive answer to everything with rationality and evidence.
- Rationality and evidence only works in some cases and not all.

So how do you go about testing those 3 and what does that involve?
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
I see some variation of this phrase, "I don't have to prove a negative" posted here often, and I find it to be nothing short of a copout.

As I see it, it's pretty simple: If you make a claim, positive or negative, the onus is on you to provide evidence to support that claim, otherwise your claim can easily be dismissed by others.

Claim: "Tinker Bell exists." The onus is on the person making the claim to provide evidence for the existence of Tinker Bell.

Claim: "No, Tinker Bell does not exist." The onus is on the person making the claim to provide evidence that no Tinker Bell exists.

And as for the second, "I see no evidence to support the existence of "Tinker Bell" is not evidence. Before 1930, not a single person saw evidence to support the existence of Pluto. Does that mean it came into existence in 1930? Eris in 2005? So before 1930, would the claim, "There are no [dwarf] planets orbiting the sun beyond Neptune" have been valid?

If you make a claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you want that claim to be taken seriously by others.

Disagree? State your case below.

I just stated it above.

No gods exist is a counterclaim to the claim that gods exist and it is a perfectly reasonable counterclaim when considering the lack of evidence supporting the claim of Gods existing. Tinker Bell does not exist either.
No evolution exists is a counterclaim to the claim that evolution exists and it is a perfectly reasonable counterclaim when considering the lack of evidence supporting the claim of evolution existing. Tinker Bell does not exist either.

See? I can do that, too.

Does that mean that I can say no evolution exist without providing any evidence since science says that evolution exists? I mean, it is, after all, a counterclaim, yes?

I suppose I can simply say, "The earth is not flat" to a flat earther and not have to provide evidence, either, right?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No evolution exists is a counterclaim to the claim that evolution exists and it is a perfectly reasonable counterclaim when considering the lack of evidence supporting the claim of evolution existing. Tinker Bell does not exist either.

See? I can do that, too.

It is in pratice in effect different cogntive shemata for justification of evidence. And that is philosophy in practice for how we think about thinking in general for the shortest version of philosophy.
And there is nothing new in that. That was observed over 2000+ years ago:
"Man is the measure of all things: of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not." And measure is another word for thinking/feeling.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but the standard is at best inter-subjective in the sense of a shared subjective standard.


Well we’d need a definition of crazy, and a consensus on how to test for it, and both might be contentious. But we could consult a psychiatrist, and decide to accept her opinion. If @Brickjectivity’s psychiatrist says she’s not crazy, I’m happy to go with that.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'm going to have one more try at understanding.

What do you mean by "legitimate" evidence? What makes it legitimate?
Any information pertaining to the question at hand according to anyone asking the question.
I'd agree that whether it convinces someone of something is not sufficient. If I wanted to understand something in say quantum mechanics and I asked for evidence from someone that really understood it, I wouldn't have a clue about the answer, even though it was totally valid. But the expert would.
Not necessarily. "Experts" fool themselves as often as anyone else. They just do it in a more complicated and precise way. Many an expert in Biblical studies, for example, has managed to see just what he was looking for to reach the conclusion he already believed to be so, and dismissed everything else. And experts in science can be no less biased.
But surely, to be evidence, it has to have relationship to the question?
Everythng relates to everything to some degree. We live within a single holistic existential event. All that is required is that those engaged in the question be able to articulate the relationship between the information and a possible solution to the question. For example, the fact that we humans have for so long contemplated the existence of gods is clearly evidence in relation to the existence of gods as this information directly relates to the question. But whether it's evidence for or against the existence of gods depends on the answer being proposed by the person presenting it. The pro position might say that we have been designed by the laws of existence to ask, lending credence to the idea that there be some sort of god-source to provide the answer. While the con side might claim that because the question has remained unanswered in spite of so many humans asking, it implies that there is no answer, because there are no gods.

Either way, the fact that we have so persistently asked is evidence in relation to the question.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
I see some variation of this phrase, "I don't have to prove a negative" posted here often, and I find it to be nothing short of a copout.

As I see it, it's pretty simple: If you make a claim, positive or negative, the onus is on you to provide evidence to support that claim, otherwise your claim can easily be dismissed by others.

Claim: "God exists." The onus is on the person making the claim to provide evidence for the existence of God.

Claim: "No gods exist." The onus is on the person making the claim to provide evidence that no gods exist.

And as for the second, "I see no evidence to support the existence of any gods" is not evidence. Before 1930, not a single person saw evidence to support the existence of Pluto. Does that mean it came into existence in 1930? Eris in 2005? So before 1930, would the claim, "There are no [dwarf] planets orbiting the sun beyond Neptune" have been valid?

If you make a claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you want that claim to be taken seriously by others.

Disagree? State your case below.
I think it would be foolish for anyone to claim no God's exist without making it clear which God he is talking about. There are things that people call God that does exist, there are people as real as you and I who people call God. It would be foolish for someone to claim (for example) that Haile Selassie never existed simple because there are those who choose to call him God. There are people who worship nature, even the Sun. Obviously those things exist. My view is; though whatever it is you might choose to call God may exist, I don't call it God; I may perhaps call it something else.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I see some variation of this phrase, "I don't have to prove a negative" posted here often, and I find it to be nothing short of a copout.

As I see it, it's pretty simple: If you make a claim, positive or negative, the onus is on you to provide evidence to support that claim, otherwise your claim can easily be dismissed by others.

Claim: "God exists." The onus is on the person making the claim to provide evidence for the existence of God.

Claim: "No gods exist." The onus is on the person making the claim to provide evidence that no gods exist.

And as for the second, "I see no evidence to support the existence of any gods" is not evidence. Before 1930, not a single person saw evidence to support the existence of Pluto. Does that mean it came into existence in 1930? Eris in 2005? So before 1930, would the claim, "There are no [dwarf] planets orbiting the sun beyond Neptune" have been valid?

If you make a claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence of that claim if you want that claim to be taken seriously by others.

Disagree? State your case below.

Yes, I disagree.

This is in fact a very straightforward, trivial matter that leaves no room for true controversy... except for the significant yet usually overlooked matter of what is even meant by the word "god".

There are several good arguments and illustrations for why it is preposterous to expect (let alone demand) "evidence" of non-existence of any deity. One of my favorites is Russell's Teapot.



But in practice the matter of non-existence is not nearly as important as those of non-significance, incoherence and uselessness, which are very much created and aggravated by the insistence of claiming certain deities as "real".

I think that most proponents of theism fail to realize how ill served they are by claims of literal existence of their deities. Counter-intuictive as it may sound, existence - even raising the matter of their hypothetical existence in any way, shape or form - is not something that would benefit most deities worth taking into consideration.

In practice, existence is only relevant for deities that are not really very functional (nor usually constructive) as a religious concept. By that perspective, we atheists are effectively extending those deities more attention and respect than their own believers do. It happens. It happens very often and very noticeably.

As a secondary objection, I have to point out that belief does not come without a cost. Our time, hopes and attention have limited reaches and should therefore be used wisely. And beliefs inform motivation and behavior, which we all should take responsibility for.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yes, I disagree.

This is in fact a very straightforward, trivial matter that leaves no room for true controversy... except for the significant yet usually overlooked matter of what is even meant by the word "god".

There are several good arguments and illustrations for why it is preposterous to expect (let alone demand) "evidence" of non-existence of any deity. One of my favorites is Russell's Teapot.



But in practice the matter of non-existence is not nearly as important as those of non-significance, incoherence and uselessness, which are very much created and aggravated by the insistence of claiming certain deities as "real".

I think that most proponents of theism fail to realize how ill served they are by claims of literal existence of their deities. Counter-intuictive as it may sound, existence - even raising the matter of their hypothetical existence in any way, shape or form - is not something that would benefit most deities worth taking into consideration.

In practice, existence is only relevant for deities that are not really very functional (nor usually constructive) as a religious concept. By that perspective, we atheists are effectively extending those deities more attention and respect than their own believers do. It happens. It happens very often and very noticeably.

As a secondary objection, I have to point out that belief does not come without a cost. Our time, hopes and attention have limited reaches and should therefore be used wisely. And beliefs inform motivation and behavior, which we all should take responsibility for.

Now you are a critical thinker and skeptic, so for your text please highlight all the times you claimed something without objective evidence and do a metacognitive analysis of what you take for granted about the world and test if you have objective evidence for that.

In other words, if you deman evidence from other humans, you might also want to check if you live up to that yourself.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Not at all. Folks will do what is within their nature to do. If anything I think debate has value even (or perhaps especially) when it isn't (unnecessarily?) constrained by formalism. Wasting too much time doing that when I was younger helped me become a vastly better writer, for example - it didn't matter if I or anyone else was following "rules" for any of it.
It depends what the participants want of get out of it, doesn't it? If you want to improve your writing skills and an unstructured debate gives you that, then do it. But don't do it with people whose objectives are different.

May I try another example? Let's say I want to improve my golf skills. The "rules" of the game have been established and in order to decide who wins it's important that everyone plays according to those rules. In fact the rules could be changed, and have been. Yes, that makes them subjective. The important thing is that everyone plays by the same rules. People can and do go to a driving range to improve their skills. There are no rules there (OK some for safety) and that's fine. But if they then go to a Golf course and just hack away at random, they will be kicked off for spoiling the experience of others.


I know what you mean. There's one particular forum I'm thinking of that was just... well, looking back on it, it's honestly the sort of awful anyone would reasonably expect of a forum that was mostly geared towards teenagers and college students. :tearsofjoy:
My worst experiences have been on religious and political sites. Not this one.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Political debates are also formal but they have different rules. You score by using pathos or ethos while those are frowned upon in philosophical debate in favour of logos.
I'd add avoiding answering the question when an honest answer might make the debater look bad.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Well, the problem is in effect if there are limits to evidence and rational for these debates.

You can make 3 postions out of this:
- There is no evidence and ratinoality at all, because it is in effect nothing but ideas in the mind of a person.
- There can be given a postive answer to everything with rationality and evidence.
- Rationality and evidence only works in some cases and not all.

So how do you go about testing those 3 and what does that involve?
#1 - Solipsism. Impossible to prove or disprove.

#2 - I would say false, unless you think it's possible to have all evidence relating to a subject. But believing something with insufficient evidence becomes "I don't know" not "It may be true in some esoteric way".

#3 - Correct, but my belief is that applies to cases without enough evidence or and that one goes on the same as #2 ("I don't know"). Note I said "belief". I don't claim there are things beyond human understanding. Impossible to test IMO.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Any information pertaining to the question at hand according to anyone asking the question.

Not necessarily. "Experts" fool themselves as often as anyone else. They just do it in a more complicated and precise way. Many an expert in Biblical studies, for example, has managed to see just what he was looking for to reach the conclusion he already believed to be so, and dismissed everything else. And experts in science can be no less biased.

Everythng relates to everything to some degree. We live within a single holistic existential event. All that is required is that those engaged in the question be able to articulate the relationship between the information and a possible solution to the question. For example, the fact that we humans have for so long contemplated the existence of gods is clearly evidence in relation to the existence of gods as this information directly relates to the question. But whether it's evidence for or against the existence of gods depends on the answer being proposed by the person presenting it. The pro position might say that we have been designed by the laws of existence to ask, lending credence to the idea that there be some sort of god-source to provide the answer. While the con side might claim that because the question has remained unanswered in spite of so many humans asking, it implies that there is no answer, because there are no gods.

Either way, the fact that we have so persistently asked is evidence in relation to the question.
"One more try" I said. I'll stick to it. :)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Now you are a critical thinker and skeptic, so for your text please highlight all the times you claimed something without objective evidence and do a metacognitive analysis of what you take for granted about the world and test if you have objective evidence for that.

In other words, if you deman evidence from other humans, you might also want to check if you live up to that yourself.
I can only assume that you failed to understand my previous post.

"Presuming" or even "restraining from disbelieving" in something comparable to Abrahamic conceptions of deity because we "can't prove that they are false" is, quite simply, very bad intellectual and ethical practice.

That in no way compares to everyday situations where we make educated guesses or even random choices. The presumption of protection of our beliefs just because isn't there.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
No evolution exists is a counterclaim to the claim that evolution exists and it is a perfectly reasonable counterclaim when considering the lack of evidence supporting the claim of evolution existing. Tinker Bell does not exist either.

See? I can do that, too.

Does that mean that I can say no evolution exist without providing any evidence since science says that evolution exists? I mean, it is, after all, a counterclaim, yes?

I suppose I can simply say, "The earth is not flat" to a flat earther and not have to provide evidence, either, right?
So you are claiming that the evidence for God is as good as the evidence for evolution? At least now I know what I'm dealing with.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
No evolution exists is a counterclaim to the claim that evolution exists and it is a perfectly reasonable counterclaim when considering the lack of evidence supporting the claim of evolution existing. Tinker Bell does not exist either.

See? I can do that, too.

Does that mean that I can say no evolution exist without providing any evidence since science says that evolution exists? I mean, it is, after all, a counterclaim, yes?

I suppose I can simply say, "The earth is not flat" to a flat earther and not have to provide evidence, either, right?
You are better than that, Salix.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
#1 - Solipsism. Impossible to prove or disprove.

#2 - I would say false, unless you think it's possible to have all evidence relating to a subject. But believing something with insufficient evidence becomes "I don't know" not "It may be true in some esoteric way".

#3 - Correct, but my belief is that applies to cases without enough evidence or and that one goes on the same as #2 ("I don't know"). Note I said "belief". I don't claim there are things beyond human understanding. Impossible to test IMO.

Well, where does this then fall:
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Science is a tool. A good one. It can answer a lot of questions that we can use to make subjective judgments. I don't think it's beyond the bounds of science to predict what choices we would make given enough information about how our brains and bodies work. But it may be that we are asking too much of it, and claiming too much for our intuition and so on.

What I find a bit annoying is asking it to do something outside its area of application and when it fails to do that then going "Ah ha! I told you all along that science is no good. Let's dump it and read some old books instead".
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Science is a tool. A good one. It can answer a lot of questions that we can use to make subjective judgments. I don't think it's beyond the bounds of science to predict what choices we would make given enough information about how our brains and bodies work. But it may be that we are asking too much of it, and claiming too much for our intuition and so on.

What I find a bit annoying is asking it to do something outside its area of application and when it fails to do that then going "Ah ha! I told you all along that science is no good. Let's dump it and read some old books instead".

No, it is not science is no good at all, it is that it has a limit. Even if we are fully aware of the brain states of all humans, we haven't removed subjectivity.
The problem is not religion as such. It is the replication of the fittest genes ends in subjectivity in some cases, where there is no we, because evolution in part happens on the level of the individual and not the level of we the species.
In other words if you want to play evidence for we and them, then it is not there because both cases are inter-subjectivity as shared subjectvity.
There is no universal we with evidence, because of how biology works.

So I have my beliefs for what a good life is and that is natural and you can have other beliefs and that is natural, but we can't use evidence on that, because it is subjective for at least some cases.
And now, if you ask what is the best thing to do, I will answer: I don't know, becasue there is no evidence for that.

I started out learning how evidence works and then I learned its limit and I am in effect still not a believer in the supernatural
 
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