I don't mean to offend anyone but can someone explain why the Trinity doctrine is held as a central

[filthyrottendirty]

Christian teaching?

When the Jewish people don't believe it? The Bible was written by Jewish people, for Jewish people. And when Jesus arrived on earth he went to the Jews first.

Mathew 15:22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes Lord, she said. “But even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

He was sent to Israel first and foremost. In this story the children are the Israelites, the dogs are the gentiles.

With that being said wouldn't the Israelites know their own God? Wouldn't they have the most knowledge about the God Christians profess to worship and shouldn't we trust them on the matter? Jesus said he was sent by God, they same God Jewish people have been worshiping for thousands of years. This being was always One, the Israelites were always monotheistic, every prophet that was sent to them affirmed this. Why now do we have so many people saying he is three in one or one in three?

 

[Regiomontanus]

Christian teaching?

When the Jewish people don't believe it? The Bible was written by Jewish people, for Jewish people. And when Jesus arrived on earth he went to the Jews first.

Mathew 15:22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes Lord, she said. “But even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

He was sent to Israel first and foremost. In this story the children are the Israelites, the dogs are the gentiles.

With that being said wouldn't the Israelites know their own God? Wouldn't they have the most knowledge about the God Christians profess to worship and shouldn't we trust them on the matter? Jesus said he was sent by God, they same God Jewish people have been worshiping for thousands of years. This being was always One, the Israelites were always monotheistic, every prophet that was sent to them affirmed this. Why now do we have so many people saying he is three in one or one in three?

One can still be a Christian and not a Trinitarian. But in any case, the doctrine of the Trinity was worked out in the first few centuries after the Resurrection as a way to understand the divinity of Jesus.

An excellent overview, I think:

Catholic Doctrine on the Holy Trinity

 

[LightofTruth]

Christian teaching?

When the Jewish people don't believe it? The Bible was written by Jewish people, for Jewish people. And when Jesus arrived on earth he went to the Jews first.

Mathew 15:22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes Lord, she said. “But even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

He was sent to Israel first and foremost. In this story the children are the Israelites, the dogs are the gentiles.

With that being said wouldn't the Israelites know their own God? Wouldn't they have the most knowledge about the God Christians profess to worship and shouldn't we trust them on the matter? Jesus said he was sent by God, they same God Jewish people have been worshiping for thousands of years. This being was always One, the Israelites were always monotheistic, every prophet that was sent to them affirmed this. Why now do we have so many people saying he is three in one or one in three?

I suggest you get to know Jesus' God.

 

[Altfish]

The Trinity is a bit like Quantum Mechanics. Hence Feynman's amended quote is relevant ...

"If you think you understand The Trinity, you don't understand The Trinity."

 

[Windwalker]

Christian teaching?

When the Jewish people don't believe it? The Bible was written by Jewish people, for Jewish people. And when Jesus arrived on earth he went to the Jews first.


He was sent to Israel first and foremost. In this story the children are the Israelites, the dogs are the gentiles.

With that being said wouldn't the Israelites know their own God? Wouldn't they have the most knowledge about the God Christians profess to worship and shouldn't we trust them on the matter? Jesus said he was sent by God, they same God Jewish people have been worshiping for thousands of years. This being was always One, the Israelites were always monotheistic, every prophet that was sent to them affirmed this. Why now do we have so many people saying he is three in one or one in three?

That the Jews don't accept the Trinity, might have a little to do with the fact they don't accept Jesus as the Son of God. One might argue if they did, then they would accept the Trinity. I'm not positive about that with those who are messianic Jews. If not then how do they see Jesus?

 

[Windwalker]

I don't think I answered the central question. "can someone explain why the Trinity doctrine is held as a central?"

If you mean why within Christianity that doctrine is central, that has to do with history. There was a controversy within the church in the 2nd and 3rd century about the nature of the Godhead. There were three different groups which butted up against each other, and they had to settle the view in church councils, so the other losing views, the non-trinitarian views, were branded as heresys.

So, Trinitarian theology became central to Orthodox teachings of the Church. You swore fidelity to that teaching as a Catholic Christian, and reject the other heresys.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That the Jews don't accept the Trinity, might have a little to do with the fact they don't accept Jesus as the Son of God. One might argue if they did, then they would accept the Trinity. I'm not positive about that with those who are messianic Jews. If not then how do they see Jesus?

I tend to think Judaism and Christianity are two distinct religions. The old and new Testaments are certainly not intertwined nor even similar, and exclusive to each religion respectively.

 

[Windwalker]

I tend to think Judaism and Christianity are two distinct religions. The old and new Testaments are certainly not intertwined nor even similar, and exclusive to each religion respectively.

Yes and no. Christianity began as a sect within Judaism. It certainly has its roots there, with a monotheist God and all. You do see the same principles in the OT as you do in the NT, as it draws from those. Clearly there are things that make them separate religions, but they do draw from the same well.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes and no. Christianity began as a sect within Judaism. It certainly has its roots there, with a monotheist God and all. You do see the same principles in the OT as you do in the NT, as it draws from those. Clearly there are things that make them separate religions, but they do draw from the same well.

I would say there are two different and distinct gods from Judaism and Christianity. I fail to see any similarities whatsoever.

 

[Windwalker]

I would say there are two different and distinct gods from Judaism and Christianity. I fail to see any similarities whatsoever.

In what way? God is violent in the OT, but not in the NT?

 

[Twilight Hue]

In what way? God is violent in the OT, but not in the NT?

That's a start.

 

[Windwalker]

That's a start.

But surprisingly, that's a misconception. God is portrayed as even more violent in the NT than he is in the OT. The book of Revelation is the bloodiest, most savage book in the entire Bible.

In reality, you can also find the God of Love throughout the OT as well. So you do have the same NT God found in the OT, and the OT God found in the NT. See this thread I started here for a few more details about this: How to Read the Bible, and Still be a Christian

So then, what other than violence versus grace (which are contradictions of character existing in both the OT and NT in a fairly equal measure) do you see that makes you think they are completely different religions at their cores?

 

[Twilight Hue]

But surprisingly, that's a misconception. God is portrayed as even more violent in the NT than he is in the OT. The book of Revelation is the bloodiest, most savage book in the entire Bible.

In reality, you can also find the God of Love throughout the OT as well. So you do have the same NT God found in the OT, and the OT God found in the NT. See this thread I started here for a few more details about this: How to Read the Bible, and Still be a Christian

So then, what other than violence versus grace (which are contradictions of character existing in both the OT and NT in a fairly equal measure) do you see that makes you think they are completely different religions at their cores?

I view Judaism and Christianity as two separate religions.

Christianity is related, but its borrowed theology redefined from Judaism with its own unique doctrine and interpretation.

 

[Estro Felino]

The Trinity is nothing but an allegorical concept to explain God.
The Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is God. God is God.
God is one, there is no polytheism, because they are not three distinct deities.

 

[Windwalker]

I view Judaism and Christianity as two separate religions.

Christianity is related, but its borrowed theology redefined from Judaism with its own unique doctrine and interpretation.

It's still very much related, and not entirely different, such as the difference between Judaism and Hinduism is. It's still part of the Abrahamic, monotheist tradition, Trinity doctrine not withstanding is still considered monotheistic.

 

[TiggerII]

I don't think I answered the central question. "can someone explain why the Trinity doctrine is held as a central?"

If you mean why within Christianity that doctrine is central, that has to do with history. There was a controversy within the church in the 2nd and 3rd century about the nature of the Godhead. There were three different groups which butted up against each other, and they had to settle the view in church councils, so the other losing views, the non-trinitarian views, were branded as heresys.

So, Trinitarian theology became central to Orthodox teachings of the Church. You swore fidelity to that teaching as a Catholic Christian, and reject the other heresys.

Three views were advocated at the Nicene council of 325 AD. (Actually, the real question to be decided at this council was only the first step by Alexandrian philosophizers [and their Roman sympathizers] toward establishing a new doctrine of God. The question here was only, “Is Jesus absolutely equal to the Father: all-powerful, always existing, and of the very same substance, or not?” The introduction of a “third person” as being equal to God was not yet being attempted officially.)

(1) Basically, Athanasius, the trinitarian from Alexandria, said,
“Yes, Jesus is absolutely equal to the Father. He has always existed beside the Father. He is of the very same substance or essence (Homoousios) as the Father. He is absolute God and must be worshiped as God.”

There was a very small minority of Western Bishops at the council who agreed with him (those most influenced by Alexandria and Neo-Platonism, including the trinitarian Bishop Hosius).

(2) There was another (much larger) minority of Bishops at the council who were led by Arius. Basically, Arius said,

“Jesus is not God, although he could be called ‘divine.’ He was made by God (the Father alone) so there was a time when he did not exist! He was made out of nothing and is, therefore, of an entirely different substance (or Essence) from that of God. He must not be worshiped as the One True God.”

(Apparently Arius also believed that in his heavenly pre-existence Jesus had been the highest of angels. But this was not an invention of Arius. It was a much earlier Christian tradition which Arius was upholding - p. 50, A Short History of Christian Doctrine, Bernard Lohse, Fortress Press, 1985 - but the more recent trinitarians had rejected it.

“Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this ‘angel’ [the Angel of Jehovah] was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God’s Messenger-Servant.” - Gen. 16:7 footnote, NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985.)

(3) The vast majority (more than 200 bishops) of those at the Council of Nicaea were led by Eusebius of Caesarea. These were the Semi-Arians (see The American People’s Encyclopedia, 1954, p. 8-207). They strongly agreed with the Arians that Jesus was not God and must not be worshiped as God! They believed that Jesus did not always exist. Basically, they said,
“The Father (God alone) generated Jesus (not out of nothing as Arius believed, but) from a substance similar (Homoi ousios) to His own. He is not equal to God, but is subordinate to Him, even though he is above all the rest of creation. Jesus must not be worshiped as the One True God.”

"By contrast [with the Arians and semi-Arians], the strongest anti-Arians experienced their present as a sharp break with the past. It was they who demanded, in effect, that Christianity be 'updated' by blurring or even obliterating the long-accepted distinction between the Father and the Son.
....
"For young militants like Athanasius, however, ... Judaism was an offensive, anti-Christian faith." - p. 74, When Jesus Became God, Harcourt, 1999.

Notwithstanding the vast majority of bishops present at this council's unshakably strong insistence upon a non-trinitarian view of God, the determination and power of the small minority of Emperor- supported (and Alexandrian and Neo-Platonist-influenced) bishops of the West prevailed after months of stormy debates.

 

[rational experiences]

Human spirit status. One self owning one same life. A human.

A human father. A human mother. A human baby. The human holy Trinity first.

A human father theories for satanic machine abstracted from God hell mineral melt.

Removed natural Trinity.

States God sacrificed my man life.

Man loses spiritual mind.

Says holy father holy son and holy spirit. Meaning to self man only. Honour your own man human realisation

Bible b reading brother against brother. Flesh changed. Thesis to read. AB alpha beta. Reading stated

Question why,?

Basic answer no man is God.

Then discussion advised that realisation.

 

[Windwalker]

Three views were advocated at the Nicene council of 325 AD. (Actually, the real question to be decided at this council was only the first step by Alexandrian philosophizers [and their Roman sympathizers] toward establishing a new doctrine of God. The question here was only, “Is Jesus absolutely equal to the Father: all-powerful, always existing, and of the very same substance, or not?” The introduction of a “third person” as being equal to God was not yet being attempted officially.)

(1) Basically, Athanasius, the trinitarian from Alexandria, said,
“Yes, Jesus is absolutely equal to the Father. He has always existed beside the Father. He is of the very same substance or essence (Homoousios) as the Father. He is absolute God and must be worshiped as God.”

There was a very small minority of Western Bishops at the council who agreed with him (those most influenced by Alexandria and Neo-Platonism, including the trinitarian Bishop Hosius).

(2) There was another (much larger) minority of Bishops at the council who were led by Arius. Basically, Arius said,

“Jesus is not God, although he could be called ‘divine.’ He was made by God (the Father alone) so there was a time when he did not exist! He was made out of nothing and is, therefore, of an entirely different substance (or Essence) from that of God. He must not be worshiped as the One True God.”

(Apparently Arius also believed that in his heavenly pre-existence Jesus had been the highest of angels. But this was not an invention of Arius. It was a much earlier Christian tradition which Arius was upholding - p. 50, A Short History of Christian Doctrine, Bernard Lohse, Fortress Press, 1985 - but the more recent trinitarians had rejected it.

“Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this ‘angel’ [the Angel of Jehovah] was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God’s Messenger-Servant.” - Gen. 16:7 footnote, NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985.)

(3) The vast majority (more than 200 bishops) of those at the Council of Nicaea were led by Eusebius of Caesarea. These were the Semi-Arians (see The American People’s Encyclopedia, 1954, p. 8-207). They strongly agreed with the Arians that Jesus was not God and must not be worshiped as God! They believed that Jesus did not always exist. Basically, they said,
“The Father (God alone) generated Jesus (not out of nothing as Arius believed, but) from a substance similar (Homoi ousios) to His own. He is not equal to God, but is subordinate to Him, even though he is above all the rest of creation. Jesus must not be worshiped as the One True God.”

"By contrast [with the Arians and semi-Arians], the strongest anti-Arians experienced their present as a sharp break with the past. It was they who demanded, in effect, that Christianity be 'updated' by blurring or even obliterating the long-accepted distinction between the Father and the Son.
....
"For young militants like Athanasius, however, ... Judaism was an offensive, anti-Christian faith." - p. 74, When Jesus Became God, Harcourt, 1999.

Notwithstanding the vast majority of bishops present at this council's unshakably strong insistence upon a non-trinitarian view of God, the determination and power of the small minority of Emperor- supported (and Alexandrian and Neo-Platonist-influenced) bishops of the West prevailed after months of stormy debates.

I was familiar with the basic history of this, but this book interests me to dig deeper into it. I know that Sabellianism fits in there somewhere, the Modalistic Monarchians as I recall.

To me, trying to define God is a silly discussion ultimately, but a fun mind twister. Any time a finite mind attempts to define Infinity, you're going to be in for some absurdities. It's like the sound of one hand clapping, expecting the other hand to show up and satisfy the question.

 

[capumetu]

Christian teaching?

When the Jewish people don't believe it? The Bible was written by Jewish people, for Jewish people. And when Jesus arrived on earth he went to the Jews first.

Mathew 15:22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes Lord, she said. “But even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

He was sent to Israel first and foremost. In this story the children are the Israelites, the dogs are the gentiles.

With that being said wouldn't the Israelites know their own God? Wouldn't they have the most knowledge about the God Christians profess to worship and shouldn't we trust them on the matter? Jesus said he was sent by God, they same God Jewish people have been worshiping for thousands of years. This being was always One, the Israelites were always monotheistic, every prophet that was sent to them affirmed this. Why now do we have so many people saying he is three in one or one in three?

It is not, simple as that. Christians are Jesus followers who obey his teachings. His teaching is: (Matthew 4:10) . . .Jesus said to him:. . . it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” If Christians do not obey Jesus' teaching there, then no doubt they simply are not Christians don't you think?

 

[Windwalker]

If Christians do not obey Jesus' teaching there, then no doubt they simply are not Christians don't you think?

Then no Christians exist.