I don't support feminist movements

[oldbadger]

Exactly!

Does anyone here know if the MeToo movement supports male victims?

Oh Dear!
I checked up on whether MeToo supports all victims, here are just a couple of the reports that I discovered.......

From Google:-
Don't forget male survivors of sexual assault in #MeToo ...www.usatoday.com › story › opinion › 2019/07/26 › s...
26 Jul 2019 — MeToo has upset many American men, but avoiding conversations about masculinity and sexual assault makes it difficult for male survivors to ...

From Google:-
melmagazine.com › en-us › story › metoo-male-surviv...
Why Male Survivors Still Feel Left Out of #MeToomelmagazine.com › en-us › story › metoo-male-surviv...
23 Sep 2019 — “#MeToo is a great movement, but I'd also feel kinda guilty co-opting it for male victims,” he says, drawing an analogy between men using ...

If the above is true then I have little interest in a movement that ignores some individual victims.........

 

[SomeRandom]

I once surveyed the internet, & found about 2 dozen different
kinds of feminism. You get to pick which you favor or reject.

There was even "libertarian feminism". But I was informed
here that it cannot be. Why? Because it permits women to
voluntarily be sex workers & clients. That's officially anti-feminist.
Women's sexual actions must be restricted if commerce is
involved. I'd grant women too much liberty to be a feminist.
Go figure.

I thought that was sex positive feminism?
There are many feminist scholars who argue that decriminalisation of prostitution is a net gain for sex workers (particularly women.) Because it destigmatises the work, offers economical individuality/opportunity and makes the work environment safe and able to be regulated.
Hell there’s even feminist made porn

 

[SomeRandom]

I'd like to summarize my position in this topic right now, since I was one of the sides being responded to by others:

After reading the responses, I have softened my view on #MeToo and see practical uses for it. I probably won't be an actual part of the group to a serious extent though - I see it too much in terms of if I speak out against someone bad and they find out, it creates legal ammunition against me if say, they try to cause trouble later and I do have to report it to the authorities.

As for feminist movements, I think I should support them, but it's such a complex subject, the words I'd rather give people about it is: "I don't expect to support them any less than I have, in this thread. But for a complex subject, I'll leave you with a 'we'll see' approach as to more strongly supporting them."

This thread has been helpful for me so far, though.

I have my issues with many feminist movements myself (I join your condemnation of TERFs.)
I used to be highly critical of third wave. But I was coming in bad faith. I was stubborn and too filled with hubris to concede defeat. But that was what we Dharmics call “ego.”
So I commend you for being much more mature than I was.

The thing with feminism is that even among each wave there is a myriad of ideas, proposed solutions, issues being addressed and ideas. All of us are our own individual feminist in a way, I think.

Myself I’m now a flag waving third wave Sex Positive feminist. It’s okay if you and I don’t agree. That doesn’t make either of us “less of a feminist.”

 

[SomeRandom]

Oh Dear!
I checked up on whether MeToo supports all victims, here are just a couple of the reports that I discovered.......

From Google:-
Don't forget male survivors of sexual assault in #MeToo ...www.usatoday.com › story › opinion › 2019/07/26 › s...
26 Jul 2019 — MeToo has upset many American men, but avoiding conversations about masculinity and sexual assault makes it difficult for male survivors to ...

From Google:-
melmagazine.com › en-us › story › metoo-male-surviv...
Why Male Survivors Still Feel Left Out of #MeToomelmagazine.com › en-us › story › metoo-male-surviv...
23 Sep 2019 — “#MeToo is a great movement, but I'd also feel kinda guilty co-opting it for male victims,” he says, drawing an analogy between men using ...

If the above is true then I have little interest in a movement that ignores some individual victims.........

This is my own criticism of MeToo, though I support the movement “tentatively.”
The movement needs to address male victims and offer the same support and network as it does female victims. And trans individuals as well. We need to combat sexual crimes against all victims, no matter who they are. Men, women, gender non conforming, it doesn’t matter. Sexual assault and harassment is wrong.

 

[Revoltingest]

I thought that was sex positive feminism?

"Sex positive" isn't necessarily "sex for hire positive".

There are many feminist scholars who argue that decriminalisation of prostitution is a net gain for sex workers (particularly women.) Because it destigmatises the work, offers economical individuality/opportunity and makes the work environment safe and able to be regulated.
Hell there’s even feminist made porn

I'm on their side.
But some whose opinions matter greatly
have said it disqualifies one as a feminist.
So I don't (can't) post in that forum.
Further affiant sayeth not.

 

[SomeRandom]

"Sex positive" isn't necessarily "sex for hire positive".

Maybe. But all the sex positive feminists I know are in full support of sex workers rights. It’s part of the parcel. Perhaps this is a “lost in translation” thing. Since the feminists I know all reside in Australiastan. And we already have legalised prostitution in some areas. Hell there’s even a union for sex workers here

I'm on their side.
But some whose opinions matter greatly
have said it disqualifies one as a feminist.
So I don't (can't) post in that forum.
Further affiant sayeth not.

You’re perhaps too “Scottish” for their liking

 

[Revoltingest]

Maybe. But all the sex positive feminists I know are in full support of sex workers rights. It’s part of the parcel. Perhaps this is a “lost in translation” thing. Since the feminists I know all reside in Australiastan. And we already have legalised prostitution in some areas.

Perhaps I've something in common with
you reprobates down under, eh.
After all, you're descended from criminals.

You’re perhaps too “Scottish” for their liking

Too something, that's certain.

 

[oldbadger]

This is my own criticism of MeToo, though I support the movement “tentatively.”
The movement needs to address male victims and offer the same support and network as it does female victims. And trans individuals as well. We need to combat sexual crimes against all victims, no matter who they are. Men, women, gender non conforming, it doesn’t matter. Sexual assault and harassment is wrong.

I absolutely agree with you.
Every victim needs support in every way. Gender and sexuality should not cause anyone to be ignored.

 

[SomeRandom]

Perhaps I've something in common with
you reprobates down under, eh.
After all, you're descended from criminals.

Hey man, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree and all that.

Too something, that's certain.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hey man, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree and all that.

View attachment 44375

My giggety dun got up & gone long ago.

 

[SomeRandom]

I absolutely agree with you.
Every victim needs support in every way. Gender and sexuality should not cause anyone to be ignored.

I consider the distigmatisation of male sexual abuse victims to be an important issue. In particular as a feminist I feel it is an important issue to address.
And indeed all minorities and men who feel ignored by the MeToo movement serve as a harsh reminder that society shames victims, particularly victims who are already at risk, into silence. I consider this unacceptable

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Every feminist I personally know, including myself, supports sexual liberation like that. I even consider that pretty central to feminism.

For what it's worth.

Granted and keep in mind I've lived in rural Indiana most my life, but I have known some like that. They also tend to be anti-housewife. So, basically, the want freedom and choices for women, but not too many and only ones they approve of.

Oh believe me. I hold many views that oppose RF's norm. That's not about to change.

Good! That's less arguing I feel compelled to do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I consider the distigmatisation of male sexual abuse victims to be an important issue. In particular as a feminist I feel it is an important issue to address.
And indeed all minorities and men who feel ignored by the MeToo movement serve as a harsh reminder that society shames victims, particularly victims who are already at risk, into silence. I consider this unacceptable

As far as I know they basically did leave men out of it. It happens, and not necessarily in prison or the military. But, whisper "toxic masculinity" and, typically men, get super defensive over the idea there is anything problematic with "normal" guy behaviors. When he is basically inherently shamed to report such an attack (especially if the attacker is a woman), because guys are supposed to be tough and always want it, there is definitely a problem there. Feminists are--are should ideally be--natural allies and strong supporters of these victims suffering in silence. But feminism is largely as guilty as everybody else in overlooking and ignoring them.

 

[SomeRandom]

As far as I know they basically did leave men out of it. It happens, and not necessarily in prison or the military. But, whisper "toxic masculinity" and, typically men, get super defensive over the idea there is anything problematic with "normal" guy behaviors. When he is basically inherently shamed to report such an attack (especially if the attacker is a woman), because guys are supposed to be tough and always want it, there is definitely a problem there. Feminists are--are should ideally be--natural allies and strong supporters of these victims suffering in silence. But feminism is largely as guilty as everybody else in overlooking and ignoring them.

I agree. Though I have come to perhaps have more empathy as to why. Or rather what I think is why.
Feminism of course has its own “thesis-es” as to the subjugation of women. Which has no doubt changed through the iterations. And perhaps is why there are “TERFs.” Women who almost seem affronted that a man could just become a woman. As if the female experience suffering under a patriarchal world is something that one actively “chooses.”
(Note I do not agree with that line of thinking. But that’s just what I’ve personally observed with some TERFs I’ve interacted with.)
With toxic masculinity I think this has caused a great and unwarranted divide. As you say, men become combative and defensive. This shuts out feminist would be allies. And unfortunately this spurns (some) men into toxic movements. Everyone just ends up resentful and more cynical as a result. So olive branches are discarded.
Maybe I’m less cynical than I thought because I think there are still bridges to be built successfully. I’m just not always sure how.

 

[JustGeorge]

I was discussing with a friend this morning, we feel in our culture there has been some confusion on what is masculinity, and what is D-baggery. This could be a local thing, or it could spread out further...

But when someone mentions 'masculine' around here, the images brought up usually aren't pleasant for most people.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I was discussing with a friend this morning, we feel in our culture there has been some confusion on what is masculinity, and what is D-baggery. This could be a local thing, or it could spread out further...

But when someone mentions 'masculine' around here, the images brought up usually aren't pleasant for most people.

I have some experiences...

As a transgender person, but cis at the time, I have tried the straight area of a site as a man talking to straight women. The straight women aren't often very nice and have a lot of fear and caution. I do think they've been misused by the men on there. But I chalked it up as just 'people and dating sites'.

I later used to get on the site as a trans girl who does look a bit more feminine (I'm on estrogen), and talked to lesbian women. The lesbian women are really about 3× more open and trusting toward me, and are less ready to metaphorically speaking, make a quick dart of it away from you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

thesis-es

Theses

Feminism of course has its own “thesis-es” as to the subjugation of women. Which has no doubt changed through the iterations. And perhaps is why there are “TERFs.” Women who almost seem affronted that a man could just become a woman. As if the female experience suffering under a patriarchal world is something that one actively “chooses.”

Yup. It's like they don't even want to consider that very often, we--myself included--have a hard time not just accepting ourselves as trans, but accepting ourselves as women. Women are judged by looks rather than intelligence and ability and are expected to put way more effort into appearance. Women are supposed to be weak and fragile. We are supposed to be beneath men and not know so much. We have to accept and swallow all that. We have to accept being cat called, gawked at, grabbed and groped, and rape for me was never an issue brought up more than very rarely until I started venturing out as a woman.
Myself, I still don't know why anyone would choose that for their life. I do know though I couldn't keep going on as a male living as a man in society, and I had to accept much and also work on a deal of internalized misogyny.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I need to be careful how I word this. To say I experienced no discomfort as a man would be an outright lie. But to say identifying as a woman and getting on estrogen saved my life, might imply I would have offed myself which isn't true either - I don't have those kind of thoughts and I'm a fighter.

But had I not answered my gender dysphoria with a solution, I would have gone through life feeling pretty dead and broken inside, the pain eating away at me. Picture a scenario where I was hit by a car and recovering. It didn't happen, but picture the scenario. Well, I wouldn't have pulled the plug on myself at the hospital, I try to be sane... but I might have still experienced so much gender dysphoria, that my body through its self-defense mechanisms could have lost the will to live, causing me to not recover from such an accident. Just saying.

 

[Tambourine]

#MeToo has adressed male victimhood, people simply choose to ignore that component for their own reasons.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

#MeToo has adressed male victimhood, people simply choose to ignore that component for their own reasons.

Though it's often not praised much in debates, I think the ability to read between the lines is important.

We also as far as I can tell, seem to be discussing the subject rather than making definite conclusions. But if you had something you wanted to show us that corrects something we are doing incorrectly in the analysis that seems to be going on, well it could be helpful.