I don't trust religious people anymore

[VegasRich]

Hello Everybody

Just to get a few things out of the way, Yes i am new here and yes i am an athiest. I started this thread not to cause a riot or anything like that but to simply discuss the topic. Lately as i have grown older i have come to realize that i no longer trust religious people.

I realize that many people i deal with on a day to day basis are religious in some form or another and of varying degrees and for the most part it is never brought up in a topic of conversation. Their beliefs are their own and as long as they don't push them on me i never know the difference..generally these are good people and i have no issues with them at all, nor they me.

The problem comes when i find out that they are religious, i instantly lose respect for them on an intellectual level and i no longer trust them to make sound decisions. The reason for this is the cognitive dissadence they show in their religious views and their ability to ignore what in my opinion is the obvious fact that there is no god, never was and that religion itself is just a tool used to control the masses.

I find myself looking at the country as a whole and realize that the same people who believe there is an invisable, all powerful , omnipotent being in the sky that created everything, controls everything and can see or do everything with no proof of that person get a vote in how this country is ran and that vote counts just as much as mine does.

Basing their choices on how we should run our country on a figment of their imagination and the will of the church is downright dangerous in my opinion.

Anyway , if anybody finds this way of thinking worth a conversation then have at it.

 

[VegasRich]

By the way my mom is Religious, this creates some very interesting internal struggles. On one hand here is a person who i have trusted my whole life and i know to be a good person and capable of rational thoughts and when it comes to her beliefs i just can't wrap my head around it. Clearly my mother is capable of using her critical thinking skills but she just chooses to turn them off so she can keep her faith. It's just weird

 

[Caladan]

So I understand from your post that you largely feel uncomfortable with Christianity. However, this is not a Christian forum. The various religious niches explored on this forum go beyond what you have described.

Also, it is spelled 'Atheist'.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

when i find out that they are religious, i instantly lose respect for them on an intellectual level and i no longer trust them to make sound decisions. The reason for this is the cognitive dissadence they show

On one hand here is a person who i have trusted my whole life and i know to be a good person and capable of rational thoughts and when it comes to her beliefs i just can't wrap my head around it

See the dissonance?

People compartmentalize their logical abilities. We are taught to place religious beliefs beyond logic, to not subject them to logic even though we need use it for everything else - we are taught this because the result is, of course, doubt.

That you lose respect for people because they're religious says more about your logic than their logic (and character), in my opinion. Nothing you can't fix, but that's ... illogical, to say the least.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't trust religious people either.
They're no better than atheists.

And welcome aboard!

 

[VegasRich]

Sorry , it's early so my spelling is a little off, of course i would expect that to invalidate my entire thread because of two mispelled words..my bad

Second, it's not just christian's that i have an issue with..its all religion. Where did i say i had a problem with christians?

 

[VegasRich]

I don't trust religious people either.
They're no better than atheists.

And welcome aboard!

Why is it that you do not trust religious people? I know i am not the only person who must feel this way and how it pertains to the decisions we make as a society.

Now i'm all checking my spelling..did not realize i was being graded by my 10th grade english professor.

 

[Caladan]

Sorry , it's early so my spelling is a little off, of course i would expect that to invalidate my entire thread because of two mispelled words..my bad

Oh, its just something you said about losing intellectual respect.

Second, it's not just christian's that i have an issue with..its all religion. Where did i say i had a problem with christians?

So I suppose it is safe to say that you base your opinion after extensive interactions with Setians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, neopagans, Thelemites, Taoists, and Gnostics?

 

[Shuddhasattva]

I wasn't snarking your misspelling. Know why? Because bad spelling doesn't mean unintelligent to me.

I was simply pointing out the disconnect in your own thinking - which you say is what is causing you to lose respect for others.

 

[VegasRich]

Well i grew up in an Italian/Jewish community in the Bronx before moving out west. Plenty of mormons live in Vegas, Catholics, Evangelicals..you name it. Las Vegas believe it or not has a pretty diverse religious population. Actually more churches in this town per capita then most cities in the U.S

If by mispelling a word or two means you lose respect for my intellectual capacity then feel free.

I think the difference is i simply mispelled a word vs i believe an invisable man in the sky controls all..one of those is slightly more dangerous then the other in my opinion.

Hell, my boss can barely spell it seems but i know he is incredibly smart and good at his job..and he believes in some Aliens that populated the world..needless to say i think that's a little silly but i feel there is a higher probability that there are other forms of life in the universe then there is an omnipotent man in the sky

 

[Shuddhasattva]

I hope you understand that most people who do have an intellectual basis in religion, and many who do not, have no such ideas about a man in the sky.

 

[VegasRich]

I wasn't snarking your misspelling. Know why? Because bad spelling doesn't mean unintelligent to me.

I was simply pointing out the disconnect in your own thinking - which you say is what is causing you to lose respect for others.

Well yes, people who can clearly ignore evidence or the lack thereof and simply turn off their critical thinking skills are a bit of a problem for me.

Also i do not think there is a disconnect in my way of thinking, I just can't seem to wrap my head around the entire religious world. How do people who obviously manage to make difficult decisions every single day based on evidence, logic and trust simply throw all that out the window when it comes to their beliefs?

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Your mother is, in general, a trustworthy, respectable source of wisdom.

Yet you don't trust people because they hold beliefs similar to the way your mother holds them. My point is, people can be illogical religiously, and still use logic just fine in other dimensions of their lives, including politics.

What's more worrisome to me is that often people - atheists, agnostics, religious people, whatever, don't use logic so much as emotion to assess politics, and are easily swayed by rhetoric.

I see almost no difference with respect to atheists and theists here.

 

[TheKnight]

Hello Everybody

Just to get a few things out of the way, Yes i am new here and yes i am an athiest. I started this thread not to cause a riot or anything like that but to simply discuss the topic. Lately as i have grown older i have come to realize that i no longer trust religious people.

I realize that many people i deal with on a day to day basis are religious in some form or another and of varying degrees and for the most part it is never brought up in a topic of conversation. Their beliefs are their own and as long as they don't push them on me i never know the difference..generally these are good people and i have no issues with them at all, nor they me.

The problem comes when i find out that they are religious, i instantly lose respect for them on an intellectual level and i no longer trust them to make sound decisions. The reason for this is the cognitive dissadence they show in their religious views and their ability to ignore what in my opinion is the obvious fact that there is no god, never was and that religion itself is just a tool used to control the masses.

I find myself looking at the country as a whole and realize that the same people who believe there is an invisable, all powerful , omnipotent being in the sky that created everything, controls everything and can see or do everything with no proof of that person get a vote in how this country is ran and that vote counts just as much as mine does.

Basing their choices on how we should run our country on a figment of their imagination and the will of the church is downright dangerous in my opinion.

Anyway , if anybody finds this way of thinking worth a conversation then have at it.

By the way my mom is Religious, this creates some very interesting internal struggles. On one hand here is a person who i have trusted my whole life and i know to be a good person and capable of rational thoughts and when it comes to her beliefs i just can't wrap my head around it. Clearly my mother is capable of using her critical thinking skills but she just chooses to turn them off so she can keep her faith. It's just weird

As a religious intellectual I think you're making a serious error in logic. But it really all depends on what your criteria for trusting someone are. Ultimately, I'd be willing to bet that your criteria are not such that religion alone is logically sufficient to warrant not trusting someone who you would, all other factors constant, trust.

Beyond that, I think it is a bit presumptuous to say that a religious person turns off their logical faculties when it comes to their faith. Truly, this is not the case for all religious people. The problems with human behavior that people often attribute to religion are problems that generally tend to span across humanity.It's just easier for someone like yourself to blame religion. After all, it's always easier to say that "they" have some problem that "we" don't have.

The true problem is that not everyone thirsts for truth and seeks it out daily. And really, I don't think there is a pressing argument that they should. Truth is nice and all for those of us who care about it, but everyday decisions/everyday life are not made/is not lived based on truth. In truth, we usually make decisions based on what has happened in the past, an internal determination of the probability of the consequences, and ultimately with consideration to the benefits it will have.

Consistently, people have shown that they care far more about their personal benefit from an action or situation than they do about things like truth and the objective. After all, the truth is great, but what affect does it actually have on practical matters like human behavior?

Agreeably, falsehood can have a major affect on a person's behavior, but outside of those extreme and exceptional examples true/false aren't considerations. Human beings are creatures of cost/benefit analysis more so than they are about true/false analysis.

After all, for most people the truth isn't relevant if it doesn't benefit them.

Well i grew up in an Italian/Jewish community in the Bronx before moving out west. Plenty of mormons live in Vegas, Catholics, Evangelicals..you name it. Las Vegas believe it or not has a pretty diverse religious population. Actually more churches in this town per capita then most cities in the U.S

Jews, Mormons, Catholics, Christians and "lots of churches" hardly constitute religious diversity. Moreover, religions and their followers are not monolithic. Within religions there are legitimate views that can be greatly different and yet still be held as legitimate within the religion.

Generalizing is, usually, a pretty illogical thing to do. "I've met some Christians, Mormons, Catholics and Jews and therefore all religious people are basically the same in a fundamental error that I think all religious people have because I don't trust some of them."

That's essentially the gist of your posts from my perspective.

 

[Quintessence]

Well, at least you're aware that you're a bigot. Most people don't have the balls to admit their bigotries.

 

[mycorrhiza]

I'm an atheist too, but I wouldn't say that religion is illogical. Some parts of them are, such as creationism or anything else that goes directly against the scientific understanding of the world, but belief in a God, an afterlife or higher power isn't illogical. Most people are metaphysical dualists and from that point of view most religions are highly logical, as something must fill the spiritual parts of the world. Most people are capable of thinking critically about their own religious beliefs or non-beliefs, the danger is fundamentalism, not religion.

Apart from the supernatural beliefs, there are also several other functions of religions, such as comfort and community, both of which I would say are good things.

I'm religious too, as religion doesn't necessarily involve any Gods, souls or spirits. What's your take on pantheism?

 

[JohnLeo]

Hello Everybody



Anyway , if anybody finds this way of thinking worth a conversation then have at it.

It would be helpful to know how you arrived at your present belief system. You indicate that your mother was a person with religious beliefs. Therefore it would seem to follow that you were raised in something of a religious environment and had a religious faith as a child and perhaps well into adulthood. At some point, obviously, you came to the conclusion that all forms of theism were in error and that atheism was not. It would be helpful to know how and why this metamorphosis occurred,

 

[Revoltingest]

Why is it that you do not trust religious people? I know i am not the only person who must feel this way and how it pertains to the decisions we make as a society.

I just don't trust people in general.
We're bad at making decisions, especially important ones.
I should know.

Now i'm all checking my spelling..did not realize i was being graded by my 10th grade english professor.

Oh, that's just Caladan. He looks like a teddy bear, but has the demeanor of a Catholic school penguin.
But if one is to be an atheist, tis best to spell it properly. (It's an easy vowel pair to reverse though.)
Jimmy Carter lost points with me for having a degree in nuclear engineering, but pronouncing it "new cue lar".

 

[Draka]

Considering that very few religions hold a view that an "invisible man in the sky controls everything" I'd say your view of what "religious people" believe is highly misinformed. I have a hard time respecting those who tend to speak about thing as if they know what they are talking about when, in fact, they haven't a got clue.

 

[VegasRich]

Your mother is, in general, a trustworthy, respectable source of wisdom.

Yet you don't trust people because they hold beliefs similar to the way your mother holds them. My point is, people can be illogical religiously, and still use logic just fine in other dimensions of their lives, including politics.

What's more worrisome to me is that often people - atheists, agnostics, religious people, whatever, don't use logic so much as emotion to assess politics, and are easily swayed by rhetoric.

I see almost no difference with respect to atheists and theists here.

I agree with you a 100% that people on both sides of the road , both believers and non believers are capable of stupid, illogical decisions based on emotions rather than what they can see.

As i said, it is the willfully ignorant people that worry me the most. It is the people who can despite all the evidence to the contrary that there is no Yaweh can so easily believe there is. Meanwhile if they have other non-religious type decisions to make in their lives like for example "Which care should i buy that fits my budget" they form their decisions through gathering information from unbiased sources like Car and Driver or Consumer reports, talk to other people who own cars etc.. Then they take all the information and based on the evidence make a decision.

That does not happen in the case of religion in my opinion. People are mostly indoctrinated into their religion at an early age, they believe because they were taught to believe, taught not to question and because their parents believe, the people in their community believe and so on.