IsmailaGodHasHeard
Well-Known Member
I have decided that Shi'ite Islam makes more sense because religious leaders should be chosen by God first.
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I have been reading about Islam.
- Thread starter IsmailaGodHasHeard
- Start date
Congratulations IsmailaGodHasHeard,
You have not only being reading, but rather you have been reading well!
This is because you have hit the nail on the head by identifying the core of Shia Islamic theology, which is that as you stated leaders should be chosen by God.
Here are some points that prove this idea:
1. Rligions are about certainty, and unless religious leaders are sent by God, no certainty can be achieved.
2. This is God's way of choosing his vicegerents on earth, as all the Abrahamic religions prove. This is true for Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the people God has sent to humans.
3. Humans at these modern ages need such Godly chosen leaders more than the ancient people, so why would God change his way of choosing his vicegerents.
4. This point can be proved by the Islamic teachings and by the Islamic history.
You have not only being reading, but rather you have been reading well!
This is because you have hit the nail on the head by identifying the core of Shia Islamic theology, which is that as you stated leaders should be chosen by God.
Here are some points that prove this idea:
1. Rligions are about certainty, and unless religious leaders are sent by God, no certainty can be achieved.
2. This is God's way of choosing his vicegerents on earth, as all the Abrahamic religions prove. This is true for Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the people God has sent to humans.
3. Humans at these modern ages need such Godly chosen leaders more than the ancient people, so why would God change his way of choosing his vicegerents.
4. This point can be proved by the Islamic teachings and by the Islamic history.
IsmailaGodHasHeard
Well-Known Member
Thank you. That means a lot to me. I love to learn.
IsmailaGodHasHeard
Well-Known Member
Good point. I am not a Muslim so I do not know. I am a Christian.
tariqkhwaja
Jihad Against Terrorism
Assalamualaikum.
In my opinion, the answer to this question and the one at the start is presented in the verse below alluded to by my Shi'ite Muslim brother.
And therein lies the answer to both questions. So let it be understood that God through His Power uses the hands of his Successors (khalifas) and shows through their hands (which are in a way His Own) that He selected them and it was not people who selected them.
1. He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them
2. He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear
3. Followers will stop associating partners with God as they did before.
4. Followers will observe prayers.
5. Followers will obey the Messenger
These five conditions were very strongly fulfilled for all those who were God's vicegerents (successors ... i.e. Khalifas). And of course since I belong to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community I believe (and can prove) these five conditions fulfilled for Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar, Hazrat Uthman, and Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with them all) who were among the most steadfast servants of Islam.
ConfusedKuri
Active Member
Please note that Shiites do NOT have the concept of Khilafah but only that of Imamate.
Bob Dixon
>implying
Exactly.
Those who believe and do good works, not those who happen to be descendants of them.
ConfusedKuri
Active Member
This is YOUR community's belief, but NOT ours and we have a very different opinion, based on hadeeth.
What I find funny is how non-Shiites always claim how succession should not be based on descendancy yet have no issue with the fact that Muawiya chose his OWN son Yazid to become his successor.
Anyways this is not supposed to be debated here, so I'll just leave it at that.
Last edited:
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
You probably notice we come in a variety of flavors. yes we do have some differences of opinions, but we are all Muslims. A person does need to learn about all madhabs and follow that which they find to be best.
I'm Sunni and in honesty too often we fail to recognize that our Shi'a Brothers and Sisters are of the same Ummah. There should be no squabbles among us.
Bob Dixon
>implying
This is exactly what Jesus told us Christians to be like; no squabbles, living in unity.
Look what happened.
tariqkhwaja
Jihad Against Terrorism
I don't know about Sunnis but yeah ... Muawiya was not a Khalifa chosen by God according to Ahmadis. And his son Yazid was far from being even a pious person.
ConfusedKuri
Active Member
Thanks for your thoughtful question,
Those people who are uchosen by God to be his vicegerents on earth, have been chosen before they were created, and rather before God has created the universe(s). He has perfected them to be capable of the performing the great mission entrusted to them.
God said about Moses:
"واصطنعتك لنفسي" Quran 20-41.
He also said about him:
"والقيت عليك محبة مني ولتصنع على عيني" Quran 20-39.
So they are people that are incomparable to normal human beings.
It's their duty to prove that they are chosen by God. And based on their special characteristics; this is not a difficult task for them. Among the ways they can prove that they are God's chosen are Miracles, informing of previous chosen leaders, and intellects (as mentioned by one of the imams descending from prophet Muhammed (P).
Although god's chosen religious leaders tend to be descending from one another, God's chosenness is not hereditary.
:clap
Muslims and all of the followers of the Abrahamic religions need strive for unity and proximity.
God said in the holly Quran:
سورة آل عمران - سورة 3 - آية 64
Starsoul
Truth
Asoa,I have a few questions that I hope you would answer with patience.
Are good leaders chosen by God, or All leaders chosen by God?
And since according to shia belief Imams are infallible, why would Imam hasan R.a would give baiyah to Muwaviya?( I know shia reply to that by giving the example of hudaybiya by the Prophet saww, but the hudaybiya treaty was signed when muslims were oppressed and not the rulers of Makkah, and we all know that course of action in ISlam is different when a nation is oppressed; at the time of Muwaiya Muslims were ruling, they were not oppressed, they were in great numbers ,with more numbers willing to side with the Imam then with the muwaviya).
We( ahle sunnah) believe that the Imam remained silent and did a great service by protecting the unification of the ummah and protecting the honor of muslims by not letting fitnah of scetarianism spread; then why do shias insist on a separate sect and nullify the scarifice of Imam hasan R.A? I wish to understand.
Anyhow, I do have an idea about the answer to that, but I would like to know what you say on this.
I have another question, there is a sahih hadith that says that the Prophet saww said that the 12 Calpihs after the Prophet saww will be all from Quraish, and they were indeed all from Quraish, I am not disputing here whether all of them were as righteous, but the rule remained the same.
Regardless of the fact who was fitting enough for Imamat,(and the fact that the first 4 Caliphs were the righteous followers of deen and among the ten people who were given the news of jannah in their life times, by the Prophet saww himself, and they DID not pass on khilafat to their sons, nor did they gain any riches, or indulged in vain discourses, Why do shias think that Calpihs are more powerful to set the course of history than ALlah swt himself?
Isn't that a very low blow on one's faith if a person holds another person responsible for the misery that the first person goes through? Does Allah not plan anything? DO His plans change when people design schemes, does Allah swt not protect his own deen, and it is only the Imams( I respect all Imams) who were sincere and the rest of the muslims can (nauzubillAH) step over the plan of Allah and run this world with their own free will?
Where is God in this equation? When Allah swt Himself said that he and Only He controls all matters, ofcourse people who scheme evil will find their return,and no ruler in the name of Islam has gathered much respect if he was not ruling for Islam, and The Hazrat Umar R.A, Usman , and Abu bakar were all dearly loved, respected and honored by all people , even by hazrat Ali.
But I find it quite disrespectful and slanderous (astaghfirullah) against the Prophet when shias say that Prophet was a powerless man and he could not choose faithful sincere companions, and that his companions were non muslims inside (despite the fact that He is the Prophet and receives God's revelations and knows everything) he cannot judge people? and Allah will not give him sincere friends? having read the khumaini book I am shocked and quite perplexed at how much hatred and jealousy is taught to a sect and they accept it without questioning, without taking ques from the Quran and the sunnah of the Prophet.
Please do answer these questions.
Are good leaders chosen by God, or All leaders chosen by God?
And since according to shia belief Imams are infallible, why would Imam hasan R.a would give baiyah to Muwaviya?( I know shia reply to that by giving the example of hudaybiya by the Prophet saww, but the hudaybiya treaty was signed when muslims were oppressed and not the rulers of Makkah, and we all know that course of action in ISlam is different when a nation is oppressed; at the time of Muwaiya Muslims were ruling, they were not oppressed, they were in great numbers ,with more numbers willing to side with the Imam then with the muwaviya).
We( ahle sunnah) believe that the Imam remained silent and did a great service by protecting the unification of the ummah and protecting the honor of muslims by not letting fitnah of scetarianism spread; then why do shias insist on a separate sect and nullify the scarifice of Imam hasan R.A? I wish to understand.
Anyhow, I do have an idea about the answer to that, but I would like to know what you say on this.
I have another question, there is a sahih hadith that says that the Prophet saww said that the 12 Calpihs after the Prophet saww will be all from Quraish, and they were indeed all from Quraish, I am not disputing here whether all of them were as righteous, but the rule remained the same.
Regardless of the fact who was fitting enough for Imamat,(and the fact that the first 4 Caliphs were the righteous followers of deen and among the ten people who were given the news of jannah in their life times, by the Prophet saww himself, and they DID not pass on khilafat to their sons, nor did they gain any riches, or indulged in vain discourses, Why do shias think that Calpihs are more powerful to set the course of history than ALlah swt himself?
Isn't that a very low blow on one's faith if a person holds another person responsible for the misery that the first person goes through? Does Allah not plan anything? DO His plans change when people design schemes, does Allah swt not protect his own deen, and it is only the Imams( I respect all Imams) who were sincere and the rest of the muslims can (nauzubillAH) step over the plan of Allah and run this world with their own free will?
Where is God in this equation? When Allah swt Himself said that he and Only He controls all matters, ofcourse people who scheme evil will find their return,and no ruler in the name of Islam has gathered much respect if he was not ruling for Islam, and The Hazrat Umar R.A, Usman , and Abu bakar were all dearly loved, respected and honored by all people , even by hazrat Ali.
But I find it quite disrespectful and slanderous (astaghfirullah) against the Prophet when shias say that Prophet was a powerless man and he could not choose faithful sincere companions, and that his companions were non muslims inside (despite the fact that He is the Prophet and receives God's revelations and knows everything) he cannot judge people? and Allah will not give him sincere friends? having read the khumaini book I am shocked and quite perplexed at how much hatred and jealousy is taught to a sect and they accept it without questioning, without taking ques from the Quran and the sunnah of the Prophet.
Please do answer these questions.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
I want to know what the concept of Imamate is among the Shiites. How does it differ from Khilafat.
The sense I got now and before was that a blood descendent passes Imamate on, so I was curious to know if someone has explained the wisdom and Quran/Hadith behind it. I could see how that would be highly questionable today.
Imamate is very similar to prophethood.
Here is some point that I have mentioned earlier. Please read them and state any question you have regarding the topic:
1. Rligions are about certainty, and unless religious leaders are sent by God, no certainty can be achieved.
2. This is God's way of choosing his vicegerents on earth, as all the Abrahamic religions prove. This is true for Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the people God has sent to humans.
3. Humans at these modern ages need such Godly chosen leaders more than the ancient people, so why would God change his way of choosing his vicegerents.
4. This point can be proved by the Islamic teachings and by the Islamic history.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
That is my understanding of Khilafat, chosen by Allah (swt). I think people have misunderstood Khilafat to be Caliphate. So my actual question now focuses on passing Imamate directly through bloodline. This is actually also shared in concept of Caliphate where children of the "King" become successors as "head of state".