I Have Questions about Buddhism...

[Tathagata]

In sports you can practice and practice all you want, but you have to know the goal, know the field, and know the rules in order for that practice to be worth something. Otherwise it's aimless practice with no understanding and success.


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[MysticSang'ha]

Legalism. It does an ego good.

 

[DreadFish]

Again, I'm not giving you my views of the Buddha, I'm giving quotes. Look at most of my posts, they contain quotes straight from the Buddha. If I'm giving you the direct quotes from the Buddha, how can you claim it's my view?

Granted, I didn't provide a quote of Buddha saying that the 4NT & 8FP are just an outline, but that is blatantly obvious. Contained within those are nothing but lists, no explanations and teachings as to what each thing is: right view, right action, etc.


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All due respect, I have a question and am very curious.

Has this sticking strongly to the texts given you real full blown realizations? Not knowing that this or that is true, or understanding the philosophical and ontological assertions properly through-and-through; I mean has the reality you live in completely changed in some way as an effect of your point of view?
Has it brought you peace, lack of selfish motivation, clarity of awareness and intuition, less fear, compassion and love?

I do mean this as a serious question, I would like to know how it works.

 

[ratikala]

dear tathagata ,

Again, I'm not giving you my views of the Buddha, I'm giving quotes. Look at most of my posts, they contain quotes straight from the Buddha. If I'm giving you the direct quotes from the Buddha, how can you claim it's my view?

no , but you are giving quotes which you feel endorse your opinion ?

Granted, I didn't provide a quote of Buddha saying that the 4NT & 8FP are just an outline, but that is blatantly obvious. Contained within those are nothing but lists, no explanations and teachings as to what each thing is: right view, right action, etc.

so allow me the pleasure of giving a quote in support of the noble eight fold path .

"the eight fold path is the best of all paths , the four noble truths the best of all truths . freedom from desire is the best state , and he who has eyes to see is the best of men .

this is the noble path which leads to freedom from delusion.

he who treads this path will end his suffering . I have told you of this path ever since I knew suffering and its cure .

you your self must make the efort . buddhas only point the way . those who have entered the path and who meditate will be freed from the fetters of illusion .

the Dhammapada . verses 273 ...276

 

[Vinayaka]

So, I was raised a Methodist Christian, but I have had some problems with it. So I have some questions about Buddhism.

1. What does it believe as far as self-discipline? That's one of the potential aspects that attracts me to it.

2. Is it really a kind of agnosticism? Forgive my ignorance, but if I don't ask it I'll never know.

3. What are the ideas concerning Dharma?

4. Are the guidelines to reach enlightenment strict?

Okay! But, if I had failed to ask about something I should know, please say it! I'd rather have too much information than too little when it concerns this.

I noticed you came on RF one day only and asked similar questions in a few DIR sections. Since that you haven't posted. I do hope you found some answers to guide you in your search. Best wishes on it anyway.

 

[Twilight Hue]

For those unaware it should be worth noting that the eightfold path is oftentimes depicted as a wheel of which by application remains unbroken and interrelated indicative of no true starting point.

(Prajna) Right view .... leads to....
(Prajna) Right intention .... leads to...
(Sila) Right speech .... leads to....
(Sila) Right action .....leads to ....
(Sila) Right livelihood .... leads to...
(Samadhi) Right effort .... leads to....
(Samadhi) Right mindfulness .... leads to....
(Samhidi) Right concentration ....leads to.... Right view.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Otherwise it's aimless practice with no understanding......

Thats why you should put the books down for now. To paraphrase Warner, way too much intellectual clutter accumulating in that three pound lump of meat between your ears. :help:

Just sit and take a brain laxative*.

*Side effects include but are not limited to monkey screaming and jumping, aches and pains, fidgeting and boredom followed by sporaic manifestations. See your doctor should symptoms continue to persist as it may be indictive of a more serious condition. Do not exceed recommend dosage unless directed otherwise.

 

[wmjbyatt]

Again, I'm not giving you my views of the Buddha, I'm giving quotes. Look at most of my posts, they contain quotes straight from the Buddha. If I'm giving you the direct quotes from the Buddha, how can you claim it's my view?

Turnings of the Wheel of the Dharma, my friend. The yanas contradict each other doctrinally. The Theravadin works to avoid all negative karmic influences, based on the teachings of the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and the Abhidharma (among others). But the wild Tantric may seek no such thing, seeking to immerse himself in negative karmic influences in order to use the Adamantine Body to convert them into the bliss of here/now.

All spoken Dharma is a lie. The Buddha himself called it "the inexpressible Dharma." What the Buddha taught, out loud, and what is recorded in the Sutras, are contradictory teachings designed to bring different people out of suffering and into realization. DreadFish and the others are not wrong, they simple practice from a different vehicle.

"Opinion" is perhaps incorrect, because what you say is truly the word of Sutra (which, so far as we can tell, is the word of Shakyamuni Buddha). But that does not mean what you say is the ONLY path, the ONLY capturing of the Buddhadharma. However what you express is a written dharma that can allow you to express and capture the Dharma. That does not mean that it is the written dharma that we all must learn in order to capture and understand the Dharma.

Consider:

There is no ignorance,
and no end to ignorance.
There is no old age and death,
and no end to old age and death.
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.
There is no attainment of wisdom,
and no wisdom to attain.

- The Heart Sutra

Here a sermon from the Tathagata himself has declared thee Four Noble Truths to be null and the Eightfold Path to not exist. This is Prajnaparamita.

 

[Tathagata]

Turnings of the Wheel of the Dharma, my friend. The yanas contradict each other doctrinally. The Theravadin works to avoid all negative karmic influences, based on the teachings of the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and the Abhidharma (among others). But the wild Tantric may seek no such thing, seeking to immerse himself in negative karmic influences in order to use the Adamantine Body to convert them into the bliss of here/now.

All spoken Dharma is a lie.

Do you have a scriptural basis for that statement? According to Lankavatara Sutra, scripture reveals the "meaning of truth," directs the mind towards the proper way of thinking, and leads to higher understanding.

The Buddha himself called it "the inexpressible Dharma." What the Buddha taught, out loud, and what is recorded in the Sutras, are contradictory teachings designed to bring different people out of suffering and into realization. DreadFish and the others are not wrong, they simple practice from a different vehicle.

Really? Show me two contradictory verses from scripture then. The Buddha didn't teach contradictory things because that would make him a liar. If he teaches something he said is true, then turns around and contradicts it, then one of those is a lie.

What the Buddha did do was use different approaches to awaken people of different mindsets or mental dispositions. For example, when teaching a Brahmin who has strong faith, emotional attachment, and reliance on God he will try to shatter their belief and attachment to God by speaking from a strong atheist perspective affirming there is no God (which is true).

But to an atheist or someone ready for higher teachings, he will speak of Universal Mind which does exist which shatters the atheists strong belief and brings higher understanding to the person who was ready. He wouldn't have been able to teach Universal Mind to the person who has a strong faith in a personal creator God. They would personalize it, anthropomorphize it, and completely misunderstand the concept of Universal Mind.

But in both cases, his teachings were true and non-contradictory. He just had to take different approaches.

I don't think you can show me scriptural passages which blatantly contradict eachother. I think that quoting scripture still reveals truths revealed by the Buddha.

Consider:

- The Heart Sutra

Here a sermon from the Tathagata himself has declared thee Four Noble Truths to be null and the Eightfold Path to not exist. This is Prajnaparamita.

This is why it's important to understand Buddhist scripture and philosophy. What you state here is a misunderstanding. The Heart Sutra is not contradicting the Four Noble Truths. Are you familiar with Two-Truth Doctrine?

"The Buddha's teaching of the Dharma is based on two truths: a truth of worldly convention and an ultimate truth. Those who do not understand the distinction drawn between these two truths do not understand the Buddha's profound truth. Without a foundation in the conventional truth the significance of the ultimate cannot be taught. Without understanding the significance of the ultimate, liberation is not achieved."

—Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika 24:8-10

The Four Noble Truths are for the benefit of the self in this life as an individual. But this is purely on a conventional level. Ultimately there is no self, there is no suffering and cause of suffering because all there is is an ocean of emptiness, the Great Void. Suffering is an illusion. You have to have a self to suffer. But self is an illusion.


Thank you for challenging me though, this discussion has brought about higher understanding for myself and perhaps both of us.


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[DreadFish]

Do you have a scriptural basis for that statement? According to Lankavatara Sutra, scripture reveals the "meaning of truth," directs the mind towards the proper way of thinking, and leads to higher understanding.




Really? Show me two contradictory verses from scripture then. The Buddha didn't teach contradictory things because that would make him a liar. If he teaches something he said is true, then turns around and contradicts it, then one of those is a lie.

What the Buddha did do was use different approaches to awaken people of different mindsets or mental dispositions. For example, when teaching a Brahmin who has strong faith, emotional attachment, and reliance on God he will try to shatter their belief and attachment to God by speaking from a strong atheist perspective affirming there is no God (which is true).

But to an atheist or someone ready for higher teachings, he will speak of Universal Mind which does exist which shatters the atheists strong belief and brings higher understanding to the person who was ready. He wouldn't have been able to teach Universal Mind to the person who has a strong faith in a personal creator God. They would personalize it, anthropomorphize it, and completely misunderstand the concept of Universal Mind.

But in both cases, his teachings were true and non-contradictory. He just had to take different approaches.

I don't think you can show me scriptural passages which blatantly contradict eachother. I think that quoting scripture still reveals truths revealed by the Buddha.




This is why it's important to understand Buddhist scripture and philosophy. What you state here is a misunderstanding. The Heart Sutra is not contradicting the Four Noble Truths. Are you familiar with Two-Truth Doctrine?

"The Buddha's teaching of the Dharma is based on two truths: a truth of worldly convention and an ultimate truth. Those who do not understand the distinction drawn between these two truths do not understand the Buddha's profound truth. Without a foundation in the conventional truth the significance of the ultimate cannot be taught. Without understanding the significance of the ultimate, liberation is not achieved."

—Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika 24:8-10

The Four Noble Truths are for the benefit of the self in this life as an individual. But this is purely on a conventional level. Ultimately there is no self, there is no suffering and cause of suffering because all there is is an ocean of emptiness, the Great Void. Suffering is an illusion. You have to have a self to suffer. But self is an illusion.


Thank you for challenging me though, this discussion has brought about higher understanding for myself and perhaps both of us.


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I would appreciate it if you would answer my question as well.

Here's the link to it if you missed it, http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2788743-post43.html

Thanks

 

[Engyo]

Really? Show me two contradictory verses from scripture then. The Buddha didn't teach contradictory things because that would make him a liar. If he teaches something he said is true, then turns around and contradicts it, then one of those is a lie.

This is from the Lotus Sutra (emphases mine):

"Shariputra, the Buddhas, the World-Honored Ones, who exist at present in the countless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, and millions of Buddha lands in the ten directions, benefit and bring peace and happiness to living beings in large measure, these Buddhas too use countless numbers of expedient means, various causes and conditions, and words of simile and parable in order to expound the doctrines for the sake of living beings. These doctrines are all for the sake of the one Buddha vehicle. And these living beings, by listening to the doctrines of the Buddhas, are all eventually able to attain wisdom embracing all species.​

"Shariputra, these Buddhas simply teach and convert the Bodhisattvas. They do it because they wish to show the Buddha wisdom to living beings. They do it because they wish to use the Buddha wisdom to enlighten living beings. They do it because they wish to cause living beings to enter the path of Buddha wisdom.​

"Shariputra, I too will now do the same, I know that living beings have various desires. Attachments that are deeply implanted in their minds. Taking cognizance of this basic nature of theirs, I will therefore use various causes and conditions, words of simile and parable, and the power of expedient means and expound the Law for them. Shariputra, I do this so that all of them may attain the one Buddha vehicle and wisdom embracing all species.​

"Shariputra, when the age is impure and the times are chaotic, then the defilements of living beings are grave, they are greedy and jealous and put down roots that are not good. Because of this, the Buddhas, utilizing the power of expedient means, apply distinctions to the one Buddha vehicle and preach as though it were three.​

"Shariputra, if any of my disciples should claim to be an arhat or a pratyekabuddha and yet does not heed or understand that the Buddhas, the Thus Come Ones, simply teach and convert the bodhisattvas, then he is no disciple of mine, he is no arhat or pratyekabuddha.​

"Again, Shariputra, if there should be monks or nuns who claim that they already have attained the status of arhat, that this is their last incarnation, that they have reached the final nirvana, and that therefore they have no further intention of seeking anuttarasamyaksambodhi, then you should understand that such as these are all persons of overbearing arrogance. Why do I say this? Because if they are monks who have truly attained the status of arhat, then it would be unthinkable that they should fail to believe this Law. The only exception would be in a time after the Buddha had passed away, when there was no Buddha present in the world. Why is this? Because after the Buddha has passed away it will be difficult to find anyone who can embrace, recite, and understand the meaning of sutras such as this. But if persons at that time encounter another Buddha, then they will attain decisive understanding with regard to this Law.​

"Shariputra, you and the others should with a single mind believe and accept the words of the Buddha. The words of the Buddhas, the Thus Come Ones, are not empty or false. There is no other vehicle, there is only the one Buddha vehicle.​

Chapter 2 - Expedient Means pp. 24-25

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The Lotus Sutra - translated by Burton Watson ​

 

[Engyo]

And more from the same chapter (verses this time) (again, emphases mine):

The presently existing Buddhas of the ten directions,
whom heavenly and human beings make offerings to,
who in number are like Ganges sands,
they have appeared in the world
in order to bring peace and comfort to living beings,
and they too preach the Law in this way.
They understand the foremost truth of tranquil extinction
and therefore employ the power of expedient means,
and though they point out various different paths,
in truth they do so for the sake of the Buddha vehicle.
They understand the actions of living beings,
the thoughts that lie deep in their minds,
the deeds they have carried out in the past,
their desires, their nature, the power of their exertions,​

and whether their capacities are acute or dull,

and so they employ various causes and conditions,
similes, parables, and other words and phrases,
adapting what expedient means are suitable to their preaching.
Now I too am like this;
in order to bring peace and comfort to living beings
I employ various different doctrines
to disseminate the Buddha way.
Through the power of my wisdom
I know the nature and desires of living beings
and through expedient means I preach these doctrines,
causing all living beings to attain joy and gladness.​

snip

When I first sat in the place of practice
and gazed at the tree and walked around it,
for the space of three times seven days
I pondered the matter in this way.
The wisdom I have attained, I thought,
is subtle, wonderful, the foremost.
But living beings, dull incapacity,
are addicted to pleasure and blinded by stupidity.
With persons such as this,
what can I say, how can I save them?​

snip

When I thought in this manner,
the Buddhas of the ten directions all appeared
and with Brahma sounds comforted and instructed me.
"Well done, Shakyamuni!" they said.
"Foremost leader and teacher,
you have attained the unsurpassed Law.
But following the example of all other Buddhas,
you will employ the power of expedient means.
We too have all attained
the most wonderful, the foremost Law,
but for the sake of living beings
we make distinctions and preach the three vehicles.
People of small wisdom delight in a small Law,
unable to believe that they themselves could becomes Buddhas.
Therefore we employ expedient means,
making distinctions and preaching various goals.
But though we preach the three vehicles,
we do it merely in order to teach the bodhisattvas."
Shariputra, you should understand this.
When I heard these saintly lions
and their deep, pure subtle, wonderful sounds,
I rejoiced, crying "Hail to the Buddhas!"
Then I thought to myself,
I have come into this impure and evil world,
and as these Buddhas have preached,
I too must follow that example in my actions.
After I had thought of the matter in this way,
I set out at once for Varanasi.
The marks of tranquil extinction borne by all phenomena
cannot be explained in words,
and therefore I used the power of expedient means
to preach to the five ascetics.
This I termed turning the wheel of the Law,
and also with regard to "the sound of nirvana,"
and "arhat," "Dharma" and Samgha,"
I used these terms to indicate distinctions.
"From infinite kalpas in the past
I have extolled and taught the Law of nirvana,​

ending the long sufferings of birth and death."

snip

Now I, joyful and fearless,
in the midst of the bodhisattvas,
honestly discarding expedient means,
will preach only the unsurpassed Way.
When the bodhisattvas hear this Law,
they will be released from all entanglements of doubt.
The twelve hundred Arhats,
they too will all attain Buddhahood.
Following in the same fashion that the Buddhas of the
three existences
employ in preaching the Law,
I now will do likewise,
preaching a Law that is without distinctions.​

Chapter 2, Expedient Means pp: 32-34
The Lotus Sutra - translated by Burton Watson​

 

[Twilight Hue]

Really? Show me two contradictory verses from scripture then. The Buddha didn't teach contradictory things because that would make him a liar. If he teaches something he said is true, then turns around and contradicts it, then one of those is a lie.

What the Buddha did do was use different approaches to awaken people of different mindsets or mental dispositions. For example, when teaching a Brahmin who has strong faith, emotional attachment, and reliance on God he will try to shatter their belief and attachment to God by speaking from a strong atheist perspective affirming there is no God (which is true).

But to an atheist or someone ready for higher teachings, he will speak of Universal Mind which does exist which shatters the atheists strong belief and brings higher understanding to the person who was ready. He wouldn't have been able to teach Universal Mind to the person who has a strong faith in a personal creator God. They would personalize it, anthropomorphize it, and completely misunderstand the concept of Universal Mind.

But in both cases, his teachings were true and non-contradictory. He just had to take different approaches.

I don't think you can show me scriptural passages which blatantly contradict eachother. I think that quoting scripture still reveals truths revealed by the Buddha.
This is why it's important to understand Buddhist scripture and philosophy.

What you state here is a misunderstanding. The Heart Sutra is not contradicting the Four Noble Truths. Are you familiar with Two-Truth Doctrine?

There are in fact tried and true contradictions found throughout the various writings attributed to the Buddha to which you are correct to a degree in saying it's resolution is through a logical manner of approach one takes. However its just as importiant to note by which one goes about in "Resolving" such contridictions, such as via empirical (Non-logical) approaches by which this is done.

To state a case where there are in fact no true contradictions present is just as erroneous as much as it is to say the converse, by which there are true contradictions.

Consider the Tetralemma by which Buddhists employ through fourfold negation:


X (affirmation)

(negation)

(both equivalent).

(neither)

"Higher understanding" resolves such things, but not soley through a manner of logical or empirical means alone. It's not through intellectualizations derived from reading sutras and discourses* that you come about such an understanding as a person needs to "bend a little" or "go with the flow" as it were.

Reading alone and coming to an understanding through literalistic means and philosophy doesn't cut the cheese.

I personally suggest a whoopie cushion on the zafu to get out of that funk.

Works every time....




*Dogen being a prime example as well. Which is why its so nefariously and irritatingly difficult to "understand" at the offset due to the many contridictions present in his writings.

 

[Friend of Bill W]

I heard a simple explanation of why there are contradictions on the path.

If a teacher sees someone veering to the right off a path, he'll shout, "Left, left, left", and if a teacher sees someone veering left off a path, he'll shout "Right, right, right".

A driving instructor may tell some students to speed up, because they're not making progress, and he'll tell other students to slow down because they're going too fast that it's dangerous.

The teachings may appear contradictory, but they're perfect in context.

 

[wmjbyatt]

I heard a simple explanation of why there are contradictions on the path.

If a teacher sees someone veering to the right off a path, he'll shout, "Left, left, left", and if a teacher sees someone veering left off a path, he'll shout "Right, right, right".

A driving instructor may tell some students to speed up, because they're not making progress, and he'll tell other students to slow down because they're going too fast that it's dangerous.

The teachings may appear contradictory, but they're perfect in context.

Exactly. That's what I'm trying to say here. The teaching as Tathagata understands it is a shouting of "Left, left!" whereas as I understand it it's "Right, right!"

The fact is that Tathagata is trying to say that the CORRECT WAY TO GO is left, and all we're saying is that the correct way for Tathagata to go may be left, but I'm quite sure I need to go right.

 

[Tathagata]

Exactly. That's what I'm trying to say here. The teaching as Tathagata understands it is a shouting of "Left, left!" whereas as I understand it it's "Right, right!"

The fact is that Tathagata is trying to say that the CORRECT WAY TO GO is left, and all we're saying is that the correct way for Tathagata to go may be left, but I'm quite sure I need to go right.

False. I am a firm believer in the Middle Way. What I have quoted is the Buddhas accurate account of the truth.



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[Tathagata]

This is from the Lotus Sutra (emphases mine):

Yes, I already said the same thing earlier. I agree with the Lotus Sutra that the Buddha taught using expedient means.


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[DreadFish]

False. I am a firm believer in the Middle Way. What I have quoted is the Buddhas accurate account of the truth.



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I am curious, have you been taught by a legitimate teacher the meaning of these sutras, or are you reading them and taking them as they are?

Also, in case you missed my last post because it was at the end of the last page, I would still like a response to this post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2788743-post43.html


Thanks

 

[wmjbyatt]

False. I am a firm believer in the Middle Way. What I have quoted is the Buddhas accurate account of the truth.

That is your problem, Tathagata. Belief does not enter the picture. Belief is thought, thought is conceptualization, conceptualization is false.

 

[Tathagata]

That is your problem, Tathagata. Belief does not enter the picture. Belief is thought, thought is conceptualization, conceptualization is false.

You are getting hung up on words and semantics. See through the actual meaning of what was said. I accept and understand the Middle Way. This is absolutely in line with the Buddhas teachings.

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