I have to say...

[lunamoth]

So you view this as a positive verse?

While it is critical of Temple worship, it is overall a positive, hopeful verse.

John 15:
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit —fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

And other verses on along the similar concept:

Matthew 7:
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 21:
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Luke 3:
For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Luke 13:
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

Source: NIV version
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages.


It seems to me that this repeated concept through the gospels is fairly consistent, ...

It is consistent through the Gospels, esp Mark, Matt and Luke, because these are the synoptic Gospels - the same story appears in all of them. Each Gospel writer puts his own emphasis on the parable, but in each the immediate context concerns problems with the Temple.

In Matthew 21 right before the part you quote (and in Mark 11, the parallel passage) is the story of Jesus turning over tables in the Temple. The Luke 13 passage includes a reference to a disturbance at the Temple (the Galileans who were killed), and follows Ch 11-12, a long discourse that is critical of Pharisees and seems to 'foreshadow' the destruction of the Temple.



More in a bit ...

 

[Herr Heinrich]

I can understand how you could hear it that way, but as I said in my post above to Ultraviolet, the part about non-producing branches being burned refers to Temple worship, which was not meeting the needs, producing fruit, for the people of Israel.

This past Sunday was what I always think of as Love Sunday. The readings are about God being Love, and that being connected to God/Love is the Way (to human happiness, wholeness, flourishing...salvation). The other NT reading yesterday was from 1 John 4: God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

So, the reason the Priest did not address the idea of non-believers being cast into hell is because that is not what this passage is about. While we are not concerned today about corruption of the Temple, the metaphor of the vine still tells of the idea that we are all connected to each other and to God, through love. If we don't have love, then we don't 'produce the fruit' of the spirit.

Really, it is very similar in message to this passage from 1 Corinthians:

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

luna

I would need to see supporting evidence that the actual matter being discussed is about the Temple. It seems to me that even if you are correct, however, this could still easily be interpreted in the way that I interpreted it. I am wondering why the priest would not have mentioned that if it is so.

 

[lunamoth]

Luke 3:
For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Here John the Baptist is calling for people to repent, to turn around and return to God. It is again not a reference to a fiery hell, but to the uselessness, and in some cases abuses, of many religious practices of that day.

Matthew 7:
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Same as above. Not about throwing people into hell, but decrying the uselessness (and possible harmfulness) of teachings and religious practices that are not part of the Way Jesus was showing.

If you don't speak with Love, you are like a clanging bell, and if you do not have Love, your faith amounts to nothing. It's about relationship with each other, and with God through our love for each other.

<snip for brevity> ...You're welcome to clarify your interpretation of this material if you wish.

Thank you.

 

[lunamoth]

I would need to see supporting evidence that the actual matter being discussed is about the Temple. It seems to me that even if you are correct, however, this could still easily be interpreted in the way that I interpreted it. I am wondering why the priest would not have mentioned that if it is so.

Most good study Bibles will discuss this. I use The New Oxford Annotated Bible NRSV.

I agree that in today's world of loud condemning fundamentalism it is easy to read that passage the way you (and obviously others) did.

I would say the Priest did not talk about this because it is just a non-relevant issue for the main point we take from the passage today - that of being connected to God and each other (similar to the Body of Christ metaphor), and living that out by loving one another.

Another thought - if anyone needs to be worried about the judgement in that passage, it is not non-believers, but the Church for its failings and where it also fails to nourish us.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Most good study Bibles will discuss this. I use The New Oxford Annotated Bible NRSV.

I agree that in today's world of loud condemning fundamentalism it is easy to read that passage the way you (and obviously others) did.

I would say the Priest did not talk about this because it is just a non-relevant issue for the main point we take from the passage today - that of being connected to God and each other (similar to the Body of Christ metaphor), and living that out by loving one another.

Another thought - if anyone needs to be worried about the judgement in that passage, it is not non-believers, but the Church for its failings and where it also fails to nourish us.

I feel that what you are explaining is merely your interpretation. As I said: I would need to see supporting evidence. Until that point in time, I will have to interpret it as I see it.

 

[Penumbra]

While it is critical of Temple worship, it is overall a positive, hopeful verse.
It is consistent through the Gospels, esp Mark, Matt and Luke, because these are the synoptic Gospels - the same story appears in all of them. Each Gospel writer puts his own emphasis on the parable, but in each the immediate context concerns problems with the Temple.

In Matthew 21 right before the part you quote (and in Mark 11, the parallel passage) is the story of Jesus turning over tables in the Temple. The Luke 13 passage includes a reference to a disturbance at the Temple (the Galileans who were killed), and follows Ch 11-12, a long discourse that is critical of Pharisees and seems to 'foreshadow' the destruction of the Temple.

More in a bit ...[/color][/color]

Here John the Baptist is calling for people to repent, to turn around and return to God. It is again not a reference to a fiery hell, but to the uselessness, and in some cases abuses, of many religious practices of that day.

Same as above. Not about throwing people into hell, but decrying the uselessness (and possible harmfulness) of teachings and religious practices that are not part of the Way Jesus was showing.

If you don't speak with Love, you are like a clanging bell, and if you do not have Love, your faith amounts to nothing. It's about relationship with each other, and with God through our love for each other.

Thank you.

Well, to clarify one thing- I haven't referenced or mentioned hell at all in this thread. Others have, and there is an understandable tendency to kind of mix opposing arguments together (I'm sure I've done it), but to argue that they don't mean to throw people into hell when my posts haven't mentioned hell sort of dilutes the discussion a bit.


It seems to me that a lot of this has to do with interpreting text that is rough around the edges through modern sensibilities. I understand that the Gospels tend to be fairly consistent between each other due to shared material. But what I'm saying is, it seems as though one has to jump through a lot of interpretive hoops to conclude anything other than how it reads.

For continued examples, here is a broader part of the Luke 3 John the Baptist quote:

Luke 3:
7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Here, he seems to be saying that Abraham as a father can't act as any sort of moral defense, that God ran raise up new children (in other words, "humble yourself, you're not that valuable, you can be replaced"), and then follows up with the ax ready for every tree that doesn't produce fruit. I don't see how one can just say it's about the uselessness or abuses of teachings- it seems pretty clearly to be about people.

The previous counterargument for the Luke 13 passage doesn't seem strong to me. It contains a reference to the Galatians, but how does that reduce any of the rest of it? Such as:

From Luke 13
"But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

"6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ 8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

As for some of the others, yes they are often linked with the part about the Temple, but doesn't it seem clear he is nonetheless talking about the people involved?

Besides, parables such as in Matthew 13 make things pretty straightforward:

Parable of the Weeds, Matthew 13:
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

So, same basic concept. Things that are perceived as valuable get kept, things that are perceived as not valuable get discarded or destroyed in some way in the story. We could make it sound nicer, but he's pretty clear later:

Parable of the Weeds Explained, Matthew 13:
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

I don't really see how it gets any more straightforward than that one, and it's exactly in line with all of the parables about the plants that don't bear fruit getting discarded for uselessness. The text is rather directly understood I think, without a lot of need of interpretation, and even his sort of "behind the scenes" description, just completely upholds that sort of direct reading.

Thanks for your time and your response is of course welcomed. It seems to me that responses such as the OP being disturbed by this kind of material are justified.