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I have two questions about monkeys and evolution

nPeace

Veteran Member
Well earlier I asked you to provide post #'s for where you claimed you'd pointed out errors in published papers, but you immediately shut that down.

Seems like rather odd behavior from someone who's "just standing for truth", doesn't it?
Odd?
Standing for truth does not mean wasting time answered questions already answered, and allowing one's time to be used up, with questions in different ways but all designed to pull one into the same cycle.

You know, Christians do have to follow this wise advice, otherwise, we could prove ourselves to be what some people really think we are - stupid.

In my experience, people actually do this. They engage us with question after question, and keep us at the door for an hour, or more, to prevent us engaging in conversation with others.

These forums have more topics and people, than just Fly, and what Fly wants to spend time on, you know.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Oh yes, very much so. Like I hinted at earlier, I've seen that sort of thing result in some extremely tragic outcomes.

It's one thing to ignore inconvenient reality in areas in which one isn't directly involved (e.g. how none of the creationists here actually work in science); it's something else entirely to do so when people's safety is at stake.
Luckily my own Morton's Demon appears to be rather weak (as you probably know I used to oppose AGW). I have this distressing habit of reading the links supplied to me. You would not believe how often the links that some people provide refute their own claims. It appears that many of them read only the headlines. For example just yesterday a creationist tried to argue against evolution by bringing up "Scientific Racism". That was a belief that was based upon the work of Linnaeus, not Darwin. Linnaeus and those that used his work were creationists if one can even call them that since it was before Darwin's time. They believed the creation myths of the Bible. When I pointed that out there was no "Oops, I screwed up". The poster merely acted as if he had never made such a post.

It can be rather frustrating.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Odd?
Standing for truth does not mean wasting time answered questions already answered, and allowing one's time to be used up, with questions in different ways but all designed to pull one into the same cycle.
See, this is exactly the sort of behavior I've been talking about.

Earlier you claimed that you have pointed out errors in published scientific papers, but those posts were ignored. So I asked you to provide the post #'s so I could see what you were referring to....not a controversial or unreasonable request.

And how did you respond? By saying you don't like talking to me and shutting down the conversation.

Interestingly though, you give a bit of a clue as to why you did that. You describe my asking to see those posts as something "designed to pull you in". To me, that's a pretty obvious reveal about why you shut it all down....you were worried that if you showed those post #'s, I might post effective rebuttals to them (as I've done before with your posts).

So it's far safer for you to shut it all down, never show the post #'s, and tell yourself that you're better off because it's a waste of time and might even be a trap. It very much reminds me of when you said I was being "serpent like" when all I was doing was answering your questions about evolution.

Obviously there's quite a bit of fear at play here.

You know, Christians do have to follow this wise advice, otherwise, we could prove ourselves to be what some people really think we are - stupid.
And you think it's "wise" to refuse to back up your claims? If I told you I'd posted proof that the moon is made of cheese, and after you asked to see that proof I told you "I don't like talking to you" and walked away, would you see that as "wise"?

[In my experience, people actually do this. They engage us with question after question, and keep us at the door for an hour, or more, to prevent us engaging in conversation with others.

These forums have more topics and people, than just Fly, and what Fly wants to spend time on, you know.
So I have to wonder....why are you here and what are you expecting?

Are you here just to proclaim your views and make claims, while expecting everyone else to just take your word as unquestioned gospel? When you claim to have identified errors in published papers, were you expecting folks here to just nod and agree?

You realize we're not in church and you're not the pastor, right?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Luckily my own Morton's Demon appears to be rather weak (as you probably know I used to oppose AGW). I have this distressing habit of reading the links supplied to me.
You have an innate curiosity and a desire to learn, even if it might mean you were wrong about something.

The older I get the more I realize how rare those things are.

You would not believe how often the links that some people provide refute their own claims. It appears that many of them read only the headlines. For example just yesterday a creationist tried to argue against evolution by bringing up "Scientific Racism". That was a belief that was based upon the work of Linnaeus, not Darwin. Linnaeus and those that used his work were creationists if one can even call them that since it was before Darwin's time. They believed the creation myths of the Bible. When I pointed that out there was no "Oops, I screwed up". The poster merely acted as if he had never made such a post.

It can be rather frustrating.
Yup, that's classic avoidance behavior employed as a means to deal with conflict. You presented them with a conflict between what they claimed and what their source actually said, so they had to figure out how to resolve it.

The intellectually developed and confident way would be what you described..."Oops, I screwed up". The immature and insecure way is to just pretend as if the conflict doesn't even exist.

I find that sort of thing more fascinating that frustrating...probably because I grew up around it so much.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
See, this is exactly the sort of behavior I've been talking about.

Earlier you claimed that you have pointed out errors in published scientific papers, but those posts were ignored. So I asked you to provide the post #'s so I could see what you were referring to....not a controversial or unreasonable request.

And how did you respond? By saying you don't like talking to me and shutting down the conversation.

Interestingly though, you give a bit of a clue as to why you did that. You describe my asking to see those posts as something "designed to pull you in". To me, that's a pretty obvious reveal about why you shut it all down....you were worried that if you showed those post #'s, I might post effective rebuttals to them (as I've done before with your posts).

So it's far safer for you to shut it all down, never show the post #'s, and tell yourself that you're better off because it's a waste of time and might even be a trap. It very much reminds me of when you said I was being "serpent like" when all I was doing was answering your questions about evolution.

Obviously there's quite a bit of fear at play here.


And you think it's "wise" to refuse to back up your claims? If I told you I'd posted proof that the moon is made of cheese, and after you asked to see that proof I told you "I don't like talking to you" and walked away, would you see that as "wise"?


So I have to wonder....why are you here and what are you expecting?

Are you here just to proclaim your views and make claims, while expecting everyone else to just take your word as unquestioned gospel? When you claim to have identified errors in published papers, were you expecting folks here to just nod and agree?

You realize we're not in church and you're not the pastor, right?
Was just about to hit the hay, when I saw your post.
Had to respond right away. Not because I would not be able to sleep, but...

Post #720
First, I didn't say they make errors, but they speculate, and yes, speculations and assumptions do lead to wrong conclusions.
Second, I did use papers that show that there are assumptions made, and there are interpretations, which can be wrong.

Actually, I did spend quite a lot of time pointing these out, and as usual, they were ignored, like when certain people avoid answering a simple question, because they don't want to admit that assumptions are made, and these assumptions are not necessarily correct... i.e. can be wrong.

Thirdly, nobody spends any time showing why they dismiss an intelligent designer, and why design does not require an intelligent designer.

So I am not obligated to 1) repeat myself, or 2) explain anything.

Jose Fly said:
Earlier you claimed that you have pointed out errors in published scientific papers, but those posts were ignored.

Hmmm. I claimed that? :):):)
Those words look so far off from what I said.
Well there it is for everone to see, why I don't want to have another dialogue with Jose Fly.
I said it several times before.

Goodnight.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I don't think interpret means anything more or less than what it means, but you guys want to make it more than what it is, where science is concerned, and less of what it is where religion or any other study is concerned.
That's all I am saying.

The speculations in science are not absent either, but you guys want to act as though there are none - like science is all about "bang on accurate verifiable testing".
That's a myth that Atheist fill their heads with, and argue about, to sound superior.to religious folk.

Here is your quote...
"There's no opinion, there's no matters of interpretation. There's only strictly logical scientific analysis."

Clear, is it.
You promote it, and yet deny that you do, when it cannot be denied, as though you think the people you argue with don't know anything, so you can just say anything.

When scientists argue for their speculations, are they laughed at; called religious fanatics. Or are they just considered scientists, doing their work?
Neanderthal - Wikipedia
Following Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species,
  • Fuhlrott and Schaaffhausen argued the bones represented an ancient modern human form;
  • Schaaffhausen, a social Darwinist, believed that humans linearly progressed from savage to civilised, and so concluded that Neanderthals were barbarous cave-dwellers.
  • Fuhlrott and Schaaffhausen met opposition namely from the prolific pathologist Rudolf Virchow who argued against defining new species based on only a single find.
  • In 1872, Virchow erroneously interpreted Neanderthal characteristics as evidence of senility, disease, and malformation instead of archaicness, which stalled Neanderthal research until the end of the century.
  • In 2012, deep scratches on the floor of Gorham's Cave, Gibraltar, were discovered, dated to older than 39,000 years ago, which the discoverers have interpreted as Neanderthal abstract art.
Neanderthals: A History of Interpretation

Mario Crocco - Wikipedia
Mario Crocco is internationally known for having proposed in March 2007, a new taxonomic system that would include the hypothetical microorganism thought to have been detected on Mars by the Viking lander biological experiments in 1976. Though these findings were later deemed inconclusive, some scientists interpret the results as evidence of metabolism, and therefore of life; the major proponents of this position are Gilbert Levin, Rafael Navarro-González, and Ronald Paepe.

The intended effect was to reverse the burden of proof concerning the life issue, but biologists stated that naming a 'species' at this point is inappropriate, as it may lend credibility to the possibility that life has been detected. The proposed rationale was rejected by the scientific community and it remains a Nomen nudum as there is no evidence of organic biomolecules.


I'm saying that scientists are not free of using the same methods religious folk do.
We are both looking at the same evidence - body of facts, and using reason, and logical scientific analysis". Yes. Not only scientists employ the scientific method. Where it's not possible to prove one conclusion or other, we argue on the reason for the conclusion.
One isn't correct on the basis of which explanation is most accepted.

Take this extinction debate, for example.
Pleistocene megafauna - Wikipedia
Despite the evidence of interactions between humans and Genyornis, there is not much evidence to indicate that there were significant interactions between humans and other megafaunal species. Many scientists interpret this lack of evidence of interaction as evidence that humans did not cause most megafaunal extinctions in Australia.

Other researchers disagree, and argue that there is sufficient evidence to determine that human activity was the primary cause for many of the megafaunal extinctions. They argue that the lack of evidence of hunting does not indicate that hunting during the Pleistocene was negligible. ... Researchers who believe that human activity was the primary cause of megafaunal extinction in Australia argue that the lack of evidence should not rule out human-megafauna interactions.


Here we have scientists arguing.
Why make it a science vs religion argument, when it's not about that at all, since scientists aren't always religious when they argue against interpretation, inferences, assumption, speculations, proposals, suppositions, extrapolations, and yes, guesswork - which does exist - of scientists?

That's my point.

Of course there's going to be differences of opinion when there is not sufficient evidence.

If we go back to my letters example, if we have a sequence *AT where we know the second and third letter, but we don't know the first, we can very definitely say that the second letter is A and the third letter is T and we don't know what the first letter is.

But there will, of course, be differing opinions about what the * represents. Some might say it's B and the sequences is BAT. Others might say C to make CAT. Others might say H, or M, or P, or S or V, and maybe someone says it's E and the sequence is EAT, which is clearly ludicrous because the word must rhyme with AT, say some researchers.

But you seem to be presenting genetic evidence for evolution in this second category when it very much fits into the first. It's not open for interpretation, no more than 1+1=2 is open to interpretation. The genetic evidence is clear. It's not a case where there is insufficient evidence. There is more than sufficient evidence. Evolution happened. Even without the fossil record, the genetic evidence for evolution is so strong that it can't be denied.

Also, I'd love to see a single exampole of a religious scholar examining a religious claim with the scientific method, as you claimed when you said, "I'm saying that scientists are not free of using the same methods religious folk do. We are both looking at the same evidence - body of facts, and using reason, and logical scientific analysis". Yes. Not only scientists employ the scientific method."
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
No. I don't. However, I don't let that heckling slide either from Atheists, or professed Christians, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or...
I just stand for truth. That's all.
If that involves pointing out errors, so be it.
If you are on the side of that... heads up.
Aren't all Christians professed Christians? I'm not sure what you mean by that. I know that some groups of Christians think that they are the only "True" Christians. But there is only God to know that and surely they would not claim to know the mind of God. That would seem to indicate they are not "true" in their beliefs of God, but only in themselves and the group.

Anyway, I dither, but it is difficult with no real way to know.

Do you consider yourself good at interpreting the data that science uses? What are your qualifications that you base this on if you do?

Are you as good at having your errors pointed out? It is a door that swings two ways.

Interpretation does not mean that people are guessing. Scientific interpretation is based on prior work, evidence, knowledge and reason. Not all interpretation is so derived, but scientists spend a great deal of time discussing, publishing, arguing, analyzing and experimenting trying to ensure that what they conclude is sound.

If you have a disease, who do you want interpreting that? A physician or some dude that just knocked on your door?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Was just about to hit the hay, when I saw your post.
Had to respond right away. Not because I would not be able to sleep, but...

Post #720
First, I didn't say they make errors, but they speculate, and yes, speculations and assumptions do lead to wrong conclusions.
Second, I did use papers that show that there are assumptions made, and there are interpretations, which can be wrong.

Actually, I did spend quite a lot of time pointing these out, and as usual, they were ignored, like when certain people avoid answering a simple question, because they don't want to admit that assumptions are made, and these assumptions are not necessarily correct... i.e. can be wrong.

Thirdly, nobody spends any time showing why they dismiss an intelligent designer, and why design does not require an intelligent designer.

So I am not obligated to 1) repeat myself, or 2) explain anything.



Hmmm. I claimed that? :):):)
Those words look so far off from what I said.
Well there it is for everone to see, why I don't want to have another dialogue with Jose Fly.
I said it several times before.

Goodnight.
Doesn't a person have to demonstrate that something is speculation or based on assumption without evidence? You can't just say it and make it so can you?

Why are you not obligated, but others are? I do not understand that reasoning.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Doesn't a person have to demonstrate that something is speculation or based on assumption without evidence? You can't just say it and make it so can you?

Why are you not obligated, but others are? I do not understand that reasoning.

Careful, I think that one of the reasons he put me on ignore was when I kept telling him that when he uses a derogatory term about others (and the way that he uses "speculation" is clearly derogatory) he takes on a burden of proof. He could never give any evidence why certain statements of scientists were "speculation".
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Was just about to hit the hay, when I saw your post.
Had to respond right away. Not because I would not be able to sleep, but...

Post #720
First, I didn't say they make errors, but they speculate, and yes, speculations and assumptions do lead to wrong conclusions.
Second, I did use papers that show that there are assumptions made, and there are interpretations, which can be wrong.

Actually, I did spend quite a lot of time pointing these out, and as usual, they were ignored, like when certain people avoid answering a simple question, because they don't want to admit that assumptions are made, and these assumptions are not necessarily correct... i.e. can be wrong.

Thirdly, nobody spends any time showing why they dismiss an intelligent designer, and why design does not require an intelligent designer.

So I am not obligated to 1) repeat myself, or 2) explain anything.
First, I accept your clarification.

Second, again you feel compelled to make claims but apparently feel no obligation to back them up. Why? Is it as I described, where you're here to tell us all what you think and you expect everyone to simply take your word as unquestioned gospel?

So I have ask again...why are you here?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Careful, I think that one of the reasons he put me on ignore was when I kept telling him that when he uses a derogatory term about others (and the way that he uses "speculation" is clearly derogatory) he takes on a burden of proof. He could never give any evidence why certain statements of scientists were "speculation".
He generally ignores my questions. It would surprise me to a response and one that was direct to the questions asked.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
He generally ignores my questions. It would surprise me to a response and one that was direct to the questions asked.
That's just about every "discussion" with every creationist....they show up in a thread, make unsupported claims, and the rest of the "discussion" is people like us chasing them around trying to get them to support their claims and answer basic questions, while the creationist does everything they can to avoid doing so.

In the General Religious Debates sub-forum, @Hockeycowboy has been doing exactly that. He made claims about frozen animals in the tundra being evidence of a flood, after which multiple people asked him to explain how a global flood would generate that result. And predictably, he's dodged all of those requests.

I honestly don't know how they live with themselves. I really don't get it....at all.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
But you seem to be presenting genetic evidence for evolution in this second category when it very much fits into the first. It's not open for interpretation, no more than 1+1=2 is open to interpretation. The genetic evidence is clear. It's not a case where there is insufficient evidence. There is more than sufficient evidence. Evolution happened. Even without the fossil record, the genetic evidence for evolution is so strong that it can't be denied.
You seem to be saying that genetic evidence says something, and does not need interpreting. Is that what you are saying? Your answer please.
If you have a few moments, take a look at this paper, and I will get back to you in a few moments.

Also, I'd love to see a single exampole of a religious scholar examining a religious claim with the scientific method, as you claimed when you said, "I'm saying that scientists are not free of using the same methods religious folk do. We are both looking at the same evidence - body of facts, and using reason, and logical scientific analysis". Yes. Not only scientists employ the scientific method."
Are you disagreeing that scientists are not the only ones who use the scientific method?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You seem to be saying that genetic evidence says something, and does not need interpreting. Is that what you are saying? Your answer please.
If you have a few moments, take a look at this paper, and I will get back to you in a few moments.


Are you disagreeing that scientists are not the only ones who use the scientific method?
All evidence has to be interpreted. That is part of the nature of evidence. The question is is that evidence consistent. For the theory of evolution it is, and remember, there is no scientific evidence for creationism.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
First, I accept your clarification.
As if you didn't read what I said, and understand clearly.
Or maybe you don't listen to me, and just say whatever you like.
I think that's the problem with our not being able to communicate.
Seems the obvious reason you don't understand me, and claim things of me that aren't true.

Second, again you feel compelled to make claims but apparently feel no obligation to back them up.
This is false.
Everything I have stated, I have backed up.
You have read what I presented. I cannot be blamed when people ignore things because they don't want to admit what is true.

Why? Is it as I described, where you're here to tell us all what you think and you expect everyone to simply take your word as unquestioned gospel?
No. That sounds like what the Atheists here do.

So I have ask again...why are you here?
Wait. What?
Is this a survey carried out by RF? I'm sure you are not an RF rep, policing users.
Do you have a search warrant? Return with one, let's see how that goes. :D

I remember you asked me this before. You also asked another user the same question.
I remember answering you. You don't remember the answer?
I can't be blamed for people's short term memory.
I feel sorry for people who have trouble remembering.
I too am aging, but I thank God I remember things I have said. I can find them too.
I don't always remember the exact thread, but I do remember whom I was conversing with, and the topic discussed.

Anything jogged your memory?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
You seem to be saying that genetic evidence says something, and does not need interpreting. Is that what you are saying? Your answer please.
If you have a few moments, take a look at this paper, and I will get back to you in a few moments.


Are you disagreeing that scientists are not the only ones who use the scientific method?
What is it you think this paper says?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
You seem to be saying that genetic evidence says something, and does not need interpreting. Is that what you are saying? Your answer please.

I am saying that scientific evidence does not need the sort of "interpretation I suspect you are trying to get me to admit to. It does not need the "We have these things, now let's come up with a way to fit them together" sort of interpretation in which the end result is just the result of someone's imagination.

If you have a few moments, take a look at this paper, and I will get back to you in a few moments.

Yeah, I looked at it. And I bet you don't understand what it's saying.

Of course, if you do understand it, I'm sure you'll be able to tell me what "Karlin-Altschul E-values for sequence similarity" means without having to look up the answer.

And what do you think this paper is actually saying?

Are you disagreeing that scientists are not the only ones who use the scientific method?

I am saying that no religious person has ever reached a valid conclusion about a religious claim using the scientific method.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
This is false.
Everything I have stated, I have backed up.
You have read what I presented. I cannot be blamed when people ignore things because they don't want to admit what is true.
That's demonstrably false. You stated to me that you had posted examples of speculations in published scientific papers and that those posts were ignored.

Since you made those claims, I have repeatedly asked you to provide the post #s for those posts, and you have completely refused to do so. Thus it's simply a matter of record...you have made claims that you refuse to back up.

Wait. What?
Is this a survey carried out by RF? I'm sure you are not an RF rep, policing users.
Do you have a search warrant? Return with one, let's see how that goes. :D
Your defensiveness over being asked such a simple question is a good indication that I touched a nerve. You wouldn't react this way if I wasn't at least somewhat right.

I remember you asked me this before. You also asked another user the same question.
I remember answering you. You don't remember the answer?
I can't be blamed for people's short term memory.
I feel sorry for people who have trouble remembering.
I too am aging, but I thank God I remember things I have said. I can find them too.
I don't always remember the exact thread, but I do remember whom I was conversing with, and the topic discussed.

Anything jogged your memory?
Nope. You could just answer again, which would probably take less time than it took to write the above. But in typical creationist form, you behave more like a guilty defendant on the stand rather than a good faith participant in a discussion.

Like I keep saying, that's most of these "discussions"....creationists make claims and the rest of the thread is people like me chasing them around trying to get them to back up those claims and answer simple questions, while the creationists do everything they can to avoid doing so.

It's not like you're unique in that regard.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I am saying that scientific evidence does not need the sort of "interpretation I suspect you are trying to get me to admit to. It does not need the "We have these things, now let's come up with a way to fit them together" sort of interpretation in which the end result is just the result of someone's imagination.
What? o_O
Why am I reading this? Are you guys serious? :astonished:
I think you guys just make stuff up, to desperately avoid the truth.
A simple yes or no would suffice, rather than coming up with crazy ideas that make absolutely no sense... even when written. o_O

Yeah, I looked at it. And I bet you don't understand what it's saying.
:facepalm: Sigh :(

Of course, if you do understand it, I'm sure you'll be able to tell me what "Karlin-Altschul E-values for sequence similarity" means without having to look up the answer.
Why is that important to me? Is it the topic we are discussing? Are we trying to prove whose head is bigger because they are familiar with particular things in science?
t1802.gif


And what do you think this paper is actually saying?
Wait. Let me ask my mom.
This is clear...
  • Universal common ancestry is the hypothesis that all extant terrestrial life shares a common genetic heritage.
  • The classic arguments for common ancestry include many independent, converging lines of evidence from various fields,
  • When biologists attempt to reconstruct the phylogenetic relationships [another hypothesis] that link a set of species, they usually assume that the taxa under study are genealogically related. Whether one uses cladistic parsimony, distance measures, or maximum likelihood methods, the typical question is which tree is the best one, not whether there is a tree in the first place.
Was that clear to you also... that we are dealing with ideas here?
Want more? You'll have to wait until my mom is finish chewing the lamb chops. She says it's impolite to talk when your mouth is full.
:facepalm:

I am saying that no religious person has ever reached a valid conclusion about a religious claim using the scientific method.
You must not have spoken to many religious persons, to believe that.
Either that, or you ignore those, or close your eyes, and stop your ears.
I'll optimistically say it's the former.

I just created a thread, to isolate what we are actually discussing. It's entitled You Don't Understand.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
What? o_O
Why am I reading this? Are you guys serious? :astonished:
I think you guys just make stuff up, to desperately avoid the truth.
A simple yes or no would suffice, rather than coming up with crazy ideas that make absolutely no sense... even when written. o_O

Yes or No doesn't cut it when there are different definitions of the word and it is unclear which one you are using.


And this doesn't demonstrate any understanding.

Why is that important to me? Is it the topic we are discussing? Are we trying to prove whose head is bigger because they are familiar with particular things in science?
t1802.gif

No, it's because you present this source as evidence for your point of view and I don't see what part of it supports your point of view.

Wait. Let me ask my mom.
This is clear...
  • Universal common ancestry is the hypothesis that all extant terrestrial life shares a common genetic heritage.
  • The classic arguments for common ancestry include many independent, converging lines of evidence from various fields,
  • When biologists attempt to reconstruct the phylogenetic relationships [another hypothesis] that link a set of species, they usually assume that the taxa under study are genealogically related. Whether one uses cladistic parsimony, distance measures, or maximum likelihood methods, the typical question is which tree is the best one, not whether there is a tree in the first place.
Was that clear to you also... that we are dealing with ideas here?
Want more? You'll have to wait until my mom is finish chewing the lamb chops. She says it's impolite to talk when your mouth is full.
:facepalm:

And, exactly as I suspected, you are trying to present science as something a bunch of drunk guys come up with as an idea that doesn't have any support. You do not understand science.

You must not have spoken to many religious persons, to believe that.
Either that, or you ignore those, or close your eyes, and stop your ears.
I'll optimistically say it's the former.

I just created a thread, to isolate what we are actually discussing. It's entitled You Don't Understand.

You may not know this, but I used to be one of those religious people. So I'm not guessing here.

Nonetheless, I'll go over to that thread.
 
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