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I hope this is not a disrespectful question
- Thread starter kiwimac
- Start date
Our actions are only Maya unless we become nirgun through the association of Parbrahm. Its like a dream but it isnt a dream. Our actions will give reactions.
What in your view is our reason of being here? What is our purpose according to you? This view of your although right to some point is barren. Empty and also morbid. You think everything is just energy? The soul is not energy its the enjoyer of energy.
To think that there is no place for a personal God (Ishvara) in Advaita Vedanta is a misunderstanding of the philosophy. Ishvara is, in an ultimate sense, described as "false" because Brahman appears as Ishvara only due to the curtain of Maya. However, just as the world is true in the pragmatic level, similarly, Ishvara is also pragmatically true. Just as the world is not absolutely false, Ishvara is also not absolutely false. He is the distributor of the fruits of one's Karma. In order to make the pragmatic life successful, it is very important to believe in God and worship him.
Life in the world can be divided into two groups Kshara and Akshara. Kshara refers to life with destructible bodies while Akshara have indestructible body.
In the pragmatic level, whenever we talk about Brahman, we are in fact talking about God. God is the highest knowledge theoretically possible in that level. Devotion and love of God will cancel the effects of bad Karma and will make a person closer to the true knowledge by purifying his mind. Slowly, the difference between the worshipper and the worshipped decreases and upon true knowledge, liberation occurs.
What in your view is our reason of being here? What is our purpose according to you? This view of your although right to some point is barren. Empty and also morbid. You think everything is just energy? The soul is not energy its the enjoyer of energy.
To think that there is no place for a personal God (Ishvara) in Advaita Vedanta is a misunderstanding of the philosophy. Ishvara is, in an ultimate sense, described as "false" because Brahman appears as Ishvara only due to the curtain of Maya. However, just as the world is true in the pragmatic level, similarly, Ishvara is also pragmatically true. Just as the world is not absolutely false, Ishvara is also not absolutely false. He is the distributor of the fruits of one's Karma. In order to make the pragmatic life successful, it is very important to believe in God and worship him.
Life in the world can be divided into two groups Kshara and Akshara. Kshara refers to life with destructible bodies while Akshara have indestructible body.
In the pragmatic level, whenever we talk about Brahman, we are in fact talking about God. God is the highest knowledge theoretically possible in that level. Devotion and love of God will cancel the effects of bad Karma and will make a person closer to the true knowledge by purifying his mind. Slowly, the difference between the worshipper and the worshipped decreases and upon true knowledge, liberation occurs.
I still think you're mixing subjective and Objective a bit; the real vs Real, saguna vs nirguna.
Of course we perceive illusion and suffer karmic repurcussions only in the material (sagun) world! Once we "become nirgun" we've achieved a perfect samadhi and become indistinguishable from Brahman/Parabraman. We've awakened from the dream, there's no more karma, we're beyond it all -- moksha.
Reason? Purpose? These are material concerns, ultimately meaningless. Our "purpose" is to transcend purpose. Till then, the best we can do is follow our dharma as best we perceive it.
Not many people these days have their varna and jati handed to them. We have to find our own purpose or dharma in life. If your life is barren, empty and morbid you could probably benefit from councelling, and perhaps some Prozac.
My energy example was more a metaphor than a description of absolute Reality. I was trying to convey the idea that our perceptions were unreal abstractions. Of course energy is a material stuff as well. The real, Utimate Reality is saguna Brahman.
A personal God is just fine. I've no problem with a personal God, though I feel no particular need to create one for myself. But it's not Advaita. Ishwara has no place in Advaita. Vedanta cum Ishwara -- with qualities -- is Vishishtadvaita.
When I talk about Brahman I'm never talking on a pragmatic level. For advaitis, Saguna Brahman is equivalent to Ishwara, and is still part of the subjective, material world. Brahman, nirguna-Brahman, Parabraman -- all synonyms.
Other schools of Hinduism define things differently, I understand, but I seem to have fallen into the role of Advaita apologist here. Please understand that I have every respect for alternative outlooks.
As our wise friend Zenzero has pointed out, we have different perspectives. I'm a strict Advaiti, and I feel no need for Bhakti. If this outlook seems bleak to you, that's fine. It's clearly not your path. Please understand that I honor whatever path you, personally, find most practical.
Of course we perceive illusion and suffer karmic repurcussions only in the material (sagun) world! Once we "become nirgun" we've achieved a perfect samadhi and become indistinguishable from Brahman/Parabraman. We've awakened from the dream, there's no more karma, we're beyond it all -- moksha.
Reason? Purpose? These are material concerns, ultimately meaningless. Our "purpose" is to transcend purpose. Till then, the best we can do is follow our dharma as best we perceive it.
Not many people these days have their varna and jati handed to them. We have to find our own purpose or dharma in life. If your life is barren, empty and morbid you could probably benefit from councelling, and perhaps some Prozac.
My energy example was more a metaphor than a description of absolute Reality. I was trying to convey the idea that our perceptions were unreal abstractions. Of course energy is a material stuff as well. The real, Utimate Reality is saguna Brahman.
A personal God is just fine. I've no problem with a personal God, though I feel no particular need to create one for myself. But it's not Advaita. Ishwara has no place in Advaita. Vedanta cum Ishwara -- with qualities -- is Vishishtadvaita.
When I talk about Brahman I'm never talking on a pragmatic level. For advaitis, Saguna Brahman is equivalent to Ishwara, and is still part of the subjective, material world. Brahman, nirguna-Brahman, Parabraman -- all synonyms.
Other schools of Hinduism define things differently, I understand, but I seem to have fallen into the role of Advaita apologist here. Please understand that I have every respect for alternative outlooks.
As our wise friend Zenzero has pointed out, we have different perspectives. I'm a strict Advaiti, and I feel no need for Bhakti. If this outlook seems bleak to you, that's fine. It's clearly not your path. Please understand that I honor whatever path you, personally, find most practical.
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Hmm true… but the diufferent yogs include Raja Yoga, Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, and Hatha Yoga. Its either controlling or uniting.
So it depends which particular Yoga you are taking of. Secondly, yogis do sadhna for siddhis through opeing their chakras. The most famous of the yogas is Asthang Yog. The eighth stage is samadhi and here the soul experiences the travel to spiritual abodes and even have darshan of Supreme Being (Parbrahm) or even Brahm.
Yog is practised for a range of things from improving health to achieving moksh.
So it depends which particular Yoga you are taking of. Secondly, yogis do sadhna for siddhis through opeing their chakras. The most famous of the yogas is Asthang Yog. The eighth stage is samadhi and here the soul experiences the travel to spiritual abodes and even have darshan of Supreme Being (Parbrahm) or even Brahm.
Yog is practised for a range of things from improving health to achieving moksh.
What you believe or not is your problem. THE SCRIPTURES ARE ALSO RIGHT. iM NOT SAYING THEY ARE WRONG. Im typing for the many others who do. i already know all is brahman but beyond this is Parbrahman. If you yourself are God then make yourself burn and change into a animal then change back. Do everything else that avtaars have done. Make lightning. Make yourself alone fly. Make rain fall make snow fall in an instant. Only Parbrahm does this. The scriptures also state....
nityo nityanam chetanas chetananam eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman
ete camsa-kalah pumsah krishnas tu bhagavan svayam indras vyakulam lokam mrdayanti yuge yuge.
arjuna uvaca, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan purusham sasvatam divyam adi-devam ajam vibhum.
All four shlokas are different from different places of different scriptures. you do not want to pay attention to them why?
nityo nityanam chetanas chetananam eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman
ete camsa-kalah pumsah krishnas tu bhagavan svayam indras vyakulam lokam mrdayanti yuge yuge.
arjuna uvaca, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan purusham sasvatam divyam adi-devam ajam vibhum.
All four shlokas are different from different places of different scriptures. you do not want to pay attention to them why?
Scripture alone can't be right - or even wrong - in any meaningful religious sense. To have any meaning at all scriptures must be read and understood at some level. They are, so to speak, only half the resources needed for religious practice.
Thats right. As even the scriptures state neti neti... they are saying that even we cannot fully glorify the greatness of Supreme Being. They need to be read and understood through the level of those true saints who have realised the Supreme Being through practice and not preach alone.
Gaura Priya
IRL
Aw, it's not a disrespectful question at all.
I admire their Bhakti or devotion and I enjoy listening to their chanting...which to me is very powerful! I can get taken up very easily.
However, I could be wrong, but I get the impression that some of them believe that people should pray to Krishna only and not the other Deities. Perhaps not all of them are like this. I can't say for sure. Hinduism on the other hand teaches that all Deitites are aspects of one God. Hindus will also acknowledge Jesus, Allah etc. as the Vedas say that Truth is one but is called by many names. ISKCON devotees also seem to be followers of the Dvaita path or dualism, where God and humanity are seperate. Hindus choose to follow either dualism or non-dualism (Advaita). I myself subscribe to the Advaita school of thought.
Well, if you consider Vaishnavas Hindus, ISKCON devotees are actually an organisation teaching Vaishnavism, specifically Gaudiya Vaishnavism, which explains our dwaita-istic beliefs. Actually, our philosophy is called achintya-bhedabheda tattva.
This is why we uphold Krishna as the Supreme Lord: this is the same conclusion as the followers of Vallabhacharya, Nimbarkacharya, and Madhvacharya, who are all Vaishnavas. And Narayana or Vishnu is the immediate expansion of Krishna.
Or Ramanujacharya who says that Vishnu/Narayana is the Supreme. But there is no difference, really between Krishna and Vishnu. We all follow Vaishnavism. We reach these conclusions from our scriptures, mainly Srimad-Bhagavatam and Gita, but also Gaudiya Scriptures like Brahma Samhita and Chaitanya Charitamrita.
Regarding other religions, we accept Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Guru Nanak, and a few others as shaktyavesha-avataras of Krishna, or empowered messengers of Krishna, who taught God-consciousness. Therefore, the Qur'an, the Bible, and the Tanakh are considered Vedic literatures too.
There is no difference between Krishna, Allah, Jehovah, Waheguru, YHWH, or Amitabha. They are all One God, who loves us and cares for us.
Gaura Priya
IRL
Don't worry... I myself am from ISKCON, and sometimes, people can be very hard. But we do accept Swaminarayan devotees as Vaishnavas too, although we do not agree.
For example, we do not agree with some of the philosophy of Vallabhacharya, but we totally accept him and his followers as part of the different Vaishnava sampradayas in the world.
But the one thing about Vaishnavism is this - it is the focal point of bhakti and prapatti that we can come to God alone, quickest, easiest, and best for Kali Yuga.
Gaura Priya
IRL
This *I* is the materialistic, egotistical *I* that is trying to be utilised in Krishna's service through any medium possible. After all, I have been given into this body by karma, and I might as well use it for Krishna some how.
One can be part of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness or Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math or Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti, or be part of Pushtimarg or Sri Vaishnavism or the Swaminarayan movement. One can even be part of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. All of these differentiations are caused by the modes of material nature, as well as the multifarious and variegated material energy of Krishna. And since everyone's relationship with Krishna is different, it is only natural that the soul's inclinations will differ with every individual.
After all, in the spiritual realms (Goloka, Krishnaloka), there is total variegatedness, rather than merging into the Brahman.
We are like little drops of oil in a cup or water. Although both the oil (jivatma) and the water (Bhagavan) are both liquidlike, they can not mix or merge. Each little oil drop is shaped differently, with different amounts of oil, but the water encapsulates them all. It would be preposterous to claim that the water and the oil are the same, or that each drop of oil is the same indefinitely. In the same way, each soul is unique, original and different in its relationship with the Supreme Lord.
One can be part of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness or Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math or Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti, or be part of Pushtimarg or Sri Vaishnavism or the Swaminarayan movement. One can even be part of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. All of these differentiations are caused by the modes of material nature, as well as the multifarious and variegated material energy of Krishna. And since everyone's relationship with Krishna is different, it is only natural that the soul's inclinations will differ with every individual.
After all, in the spiritual realms (Goloka, Krishnaloka), there is total variegatedness, rather than merging into the Brahman.
We are like little drops of oil in a cup or water. Although both the oil (jivatma) and the water (Bhagavan) are both liquidlike, they can not mix or merge. Each little oil drop is shaped differently, with different amounts of oil, but the water encapsulates them all. It would be preposterous to claim that the water and the oil are the same, or that each drop of oil is the same indefinitely. In the same way, each soul is unique, original and different in its relationship with the Supreme Lord.
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend madanbhakta,
You query was
1. Who am *I*?
2. Where did *WE* & *THEY* came from?
The origin of everything is NOTHINGNESS and all forms & no-forms came out of this.
The *I* is only another form which is just a tiny part of that whole out of which it came out.
The *WE* & *THEY* are created by the MIND which itself is the barrier / root of MAYA. between that Whole and the individual.
Rest are all perceptions of the human mind which labels the whole as Krisha / allah / bhagwan / god / etc.
Realisation is important which causes the Maya to drop and the merging happens then the individual is only a part of that same whole which is no different than the whole in qualities.
Love & rgds
You query was
1. Who am *I*?
2. Where did *WE* & *THEY* came from?
The origin of everything is NOTHINGNESS and all forms & no-forms came out of this.
The *I* is only another form which is just a tiny part of that whole out of which it came out.
The *WE* & *THEY* are created by the MIND which itself is the barrier / root of MAYA. between that Whole and the individual.
Rest are all perceptions of the human mind which labels the whole as Krisha / allah / bhagwan / god / etc.
Realisation is important which causes the Maya to drop and the merging happens then the individual is only a part of that same whole which is no different than the whole in qualities.
Love & rgds
Andal
resident hypnotist
what an interesting topic
my two cent on it. first i should clarify that i am a convert but have spent time in living in traditional hindu parts of india. now back here there aren't many mandirs close by so i go to the iskcon temple and associate with the members. we are a mix of about 60%/40% in favor of nri's instead of westerners. i find some of their practices way too strict like chanting 16 rounds a day, not giving women a better status, and the attitude toward other gods and hindus. that being said there is a lot i like about it. everyone is really kind, they have lots of functions, the kirtan and prasad, and their festivals are great.
so i guess i'm kind of mixed about them. although i have to say that it was through their kindness that i came into contact with Krishna.
my two cent on it. first i should clarify that i am a convert but have spent time in living in traditional hindu parts of india. now back here there aren't many mandirs close by so i go to the iskcon temple and associate with the members. we are a mix of about 60%/40% in favor of nri's instead of westerners. i find some of their practices way too strict like chanting 16 rounds a day, not giving women a better status, and the attitude toward other gods and hindus. that being said there is a lot i like about it. everyone is really kind, they have lots of functions, the kirtan and prasad
, and their festivals are great. so i guess i'm kind of mixed about them. although i have to say that it was through their kindness that i came into contact with Krishna.
Gaura Priya
IRL
what an interesting topic
my two cent on it. first i should clarify that i am a convert but have spent time in living in traditional hindu parts of india. now back here there aren't many mandirs close by so i go to the iskcon temple and associate with the members. we are a mix of about 60%/40% in favor of nri's instead of westerners. i find some of their practices way too strict like chanting 16 rounds a day, not giving women a better status, and the attitude toward other gods and hindus. that being said there is a lot i like about it. everyone is really kind, they have lots of functions, the kirtan and prasad
so i guess i'm kind of mixed about them. although i have to say that it was through their kindness that i came into contact with Krishna.
Hare Krishna!
The sixteen rounds are only for those who are initiated and thus have taken vows, or desire to be initiated. Otherwise, even chanting one round of the Mahamantra a day will take Maya away!
In regards to women, it really depends on where you go and who you talk to. I have a wonderful devotee friend at the temple who has her beautiful Nila-Madhava deity at home; submission to her husband is definitely NOT in her vocabulary, lol.
We're strongly pro-Vaishnava... people in general are good, lol. We just strongly do not agree with atheism or Shankaracharya's version of Vedic siddhanta.
I'm also transsexual and going to change to become a woman physically. Now, I am sure I would be rejected in the other Hindu temples in my area, but for sure I feel somewhat safe at the ISKCON temple. We have other tritiya-prakriti (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual) devotees at my temple!
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Jai Radhe...
We who follow Shankaras Advaita Vedanta ( at least in my sect ) don’t judge any path. I see Atheism as a path also. Hinduism has a long history of sampradaya’s that are Atheistic in nature.
At one of the Temples I go to, folks who follow both Advaita and Dvaita sit side by side.
Hinduism has been a safe place for the Gay Intelligencia since the 1930’s, the great author Christopher Isherwood told his Guru that he was gay. His Guru told him to look on his lover as lord Krishna is in him.
We also accept you dvaita's as a path to the highest Truth. Just like the great Sankara said.
"Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda. Oh fool ! Rules of Grammar will not save you at the time of your death.
Oh fool ! Give up your thirst to amass wealth, devote your mind to thoughts to the Real. Be content with what comes through actions already performed in the past........
Chant the holy name of God and silence the turbulent mind. Perform these with care, with extreme care......
Worship Govinda, worship Govinda, worship Govinda, Oh fool ! Other than chanting the Lord's names, there is no other way to cross the life's ocean."
Adi Sankaracharya's Bhaja Govindam is a long poem so I only copied part of it.
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