I need to ask a Hindu a question about Kundalini.

[Kirran]

Yeah fair enough I've invited him to a private conversation, non duality is hard to get my head around. Do not know if he will come to the party though.

Aup interprets nonduality in a materialist manner. This is his prerogative. But it is not the usual usage of the term. Traditionally in Hinduism, nonduality refers to Advaita Vedanta and similar philosophies, which view all reality as being infinite existence-consciousness-bliss (with the proviso that all descriptions are ultimately lacking).

 

[Vinayaka]

Yeah fair enough I've invited him to a private conversation, non duality is hard to get my head around. Do not know if he will come to the party though.

As an old timer on these forums, I can tell you that several people including myself, have entered into long debates with Aupmanyav on his various interpretations of Hinduism, atheism being the most common. The end result is always the same: agreeing to disagree, and leaving it at that. I though maybe you should know this. It might save you some time.

 

[Nigel]

Aup interprets nonduality in a materialist manner.

Ok ....so we are all one sort of thing? Not sure how that is converted into a materialistic idea.

 

[Kirran]

Ok ....so we are all one sort of thing? Not sure how that is converted into a materialistic idea.

Aup believes that everything is matter-energy.

 

[Nigel]

As an old timer on these forums, I can tell you that several people including myself, have entered into long debates

Haha OK thanks for the heads up.

 

[Nigel]

Aup believes that everything is matter-energy.

Hmm OK where as the traditional idea is everything is what, nothing, thought, god, dependent on the existence of something else, the big I?

 

[Nigel]

reality as being infinite existence-consciousness-bliss (with the proviso that all descriptions are ultimately lacking).

Wait you already answered that.

 

[SomeRandom]

Are you even Hindu? Can you show me a scientific study that agrees the gods are real? Because I can show you one that proves that god's are a personification of negative entropy. Created by man in order to explain the order they observed in the universe, post consciousness. A way to soothe the internal war between genetic intelligence and nerve intelligence. Does that mean god's do not exist?

Uncle Aup is an atheist. Good luck there, mate. Generally speaking, people within Hinduism are allowed to interpret things however they please. Also I do believe the gentleman in question is a Hindu. Unorthodox maybe, I mean I don't care I'm rather unorthodox myself, but Hindu all the same.
For the record being a non dualist is not the same as thinking you are God, I mean that's a very simplistic explanation really. If you want to debate Aup on his views well, firstly good luck. He's very steadfast in his beliefs. But may I politely suggest maybe brush up on Hindu concepts first?

 

[Vinayaka]

For the record being a non dualist is not the same as thinking you are God, I mean that's a very simplistic explanation really. If you want to debate Aup on his views well, firstly good luck. He's very steadfast in his beliefs. But may I politely suggest maybe brush up on Hindu concepts first?

I think our inquisitive Nigel may have taken our advice not to engage Aup, but then again, since we aren't privy to PMs they may have posted a couple of hundred responses in diligent dutiful debate already.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think our inquisitive Nigel may have taken our advice not to engage Aup, but then again, since we aren't privy to PMs they may have posted a couple of hundred responses in diligent dutiful debate already.

Perhaps. Both engaged in a vigorous debate as we speak.

 

[sayak83]

Hmm OK where as the traditional idea is everything is what, nothing, thought, god, dependent on the existence of something else, the big I?

There are many ways to partially describe Brahman. Here is a brief excerpt from one of the major Upanisads (Brihad-Aranyaka Upanisad) to give you a taste

The World of Brahman

The Upanisads are about demonstrating the hidden unity between the self of a person (Atman) and the ultimate reality (Brahman). Because the essence of what the self is also reveals the essence of Brahman, investigation of the self (Atman) is a good way to get a grasp of Brahman.

The section I quote is a dialogue between a king (Janaka) and a seer (Yajnavalkya) regarding the nature of the self in Brihadaranyaka Upanisad 4.3. The conversation has entered into a discussion on the cause of consciousness of a person in both waking and dreaming states when sensory inputs are removed :-

Janaka asks:-
‘When the sun and the moon have both set, the fire has gone out, and speech has stopped, Yājñavalkya, what serves as the light for a man?’
Yajnavalkya replies:-
‘The self (atman) serves as his light. It is through the light of the self that he sits, goes out, works and returns.’
Janaka replies:-
"Which self is that?"
Yajnavalkya:-
‘This infinite person (Purusa) that is identified with the intellect (vijnanamaya) and is in the midst of the vital functions (prana), the inner light within the heart . Assuming the likeness (of the intellect), it moves between the two worlds ; it thinks, as it were, and shakes, as it were. Being identified with dreams, it transcends this world—these visible forms of death. That man,[28] when he is born, or attains a body, is connected with evils ; ánd when he dies, or leaves the body, he discards those evils.

Yajnavalkya goes onto say that the dream state, being a junction of the two worlds where the Atman resides, provides a truer reflection of its nature and capabilities.

Thus:-

9. That man has only two abodes, this and the next world. The dream state, which is the third, is at the junction (of the two). Staying at that junction he surveys the two abodes, this and the next world. Whatever outfit he may have for the next world, providing himself with that he sees both evils (sufferings) and joys. When he dreams, he takes away a little of (the impressions of) this all-embracing world (the waking state), himself puts the body aside and himself creates , revealing his own lustre by his own light—and dreams. In this state the man himself becomes the light.There are no chariots, nor animals to be yoked to them, nor roads there, but he creates the chariots, animals and roads. There are no pleasures, joys, or delights there, but he creates the pleasures, joys and delights. There are no pools, tanks, or rivers there, but he creates the pools, tanks and rivers. For he is the creative agent (Karta).

However, the dream state is not the end. For, while in a dream state the self creates everything from its own power, it still retains the illusion that he is a mere entity within this dream world. The dream world appears to be something external to him, acting on him, and often (as in the case of nightmares) causing him pain. When, as the sleep deepens, this illusion of a seperate world apart from the self is also removed, the Atman truly understands that he is all in all and enters his third and highest and truest state of existence as an unconditioned being. This is the non-dual state of dreamless sleep without dreams where the person resides in the desireless and sorrowless state of blissful self-knowledge.Thus Yajnavalkya says:-

20. Now when (he feels) as if he were being killed or overpowered, or being pursued by an elephant, or falling into a pit, (in short) conjures at the time through ignorance whatever terrible things he has experienced in the waking state, (that is the dream state). But when (he becomes) a god, as it were, or a king, as it were, or thinks, ‘This (universe) is myself, who am all,’ that is his highest world.

21. That is his form—beyond desires, free from evils, and fearless. As a man, fully embraced by his beloved wife, does not know àṅything at all, either external or internal, so does this person, fully embraced by the self consisting of knowledge (prājñenātmanā ), not know anything at all, either external or internal. That is his form—in which all objects of desire have been attained and are but the self, and which is free from desires and devoid of grief.

23-29
Now, he does not see (or hear or smell or touch or taste or perceive) anything here; but although he does not see (or...), he is quite capable of seeing (or hearing or....), for it is impossible for a see-er (or hearer or...) to lose his capacity to see (...), for it is indestructible. But there isn't a second reality here that he could see (or hear...) as something distinct and separate from himself.

28
Now, he does not think anything here; but although he does not think , he is quite capable of thinking, for it is impossible for a thinker to lose his capacity to think, for it is indestructible. But there isn't a second reality here about which he could think as something distinct and separate from himself.

Yajnavalkya goes on to identify this state of non-dual existence consisting of bliss born of self-knowledge as the world or state of Brahman. It is imperfectly and temporally accessed by beings in the dream-less sleep state. Realizing this state completely is the highest goal of all beings.

32. He becomes the one ocean, he becomes the sole seer! This is the world (state) of Brahman, O Emperor. "
Thus did Yājñavalkya instruct Janaka:- " This is its supreme attainment, this is its supreme glory, this is its highest world, this is its supreme bliss. On a particle of this very bliss other beings live."


Hope this is illuminating.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

I think it is worth saying, as Aupmanyav was the first to strike, that 'Hindus' like Aupmanyav, often jump on other Hindus, in this case a non-Hindu asking Hindus about common Hindu concepts that Hindus believe, and I find it disruptive. In other threads Sayak has jumped on me for "peddling spiritualism" when I just talked about Hindu theories on creation, such as how blind matter is guided by intelligence or the Hindu argument from design. I think it vitiates the atmosphere. It would be like me claiming to be Christian and jumping on other Christians for common Christian beliefs like the existence of Jesus etc.

I think we need to come up with some policy regarding these self-identified "atheist Hindus" to not disrupt or attack other Hindus for professing common Hindu beliefs. It just ruins the atmosphere in my opinion. I think they themselves should stop themselves from making remarks like they do, when they know clearly these are common Hindu beliefs.

Anyway, coming to Kundalini. I have not a Kundalini experience myself(though I had something very close, PM and I will tell you about it) but we've all had that spine tingling feeling, where it feels like currents of electricity shoot up the spine. It usually happens during euphoria, sometimes during orgasm or when one feels a great sense of inspiration or truth. Well, a Kundalini experience is like that x100, it can lead to extremely heightened states of consciousness. A proper Kundalini experience is transforming, because it completely changes the energy system of the body. I recommend checking out a guy called Gopi Krishna, who had a Kundalini experience in his early years, and then went through a terrible ordeal trying to contain it. He has written about it in his book 'Living with Kundalin' and you can watch his video talks on youtube. This man is the real deal and speaks from experience. He came up with his own theories on how Kundalini is an evolutionary mechanism. When more Kundalini energy is released it leads to the evolution of a species. In humans, we can consciously control that mechanism, and effectively control and quicken our own evolution process.

However, Kundalini is not something you directly mess with, at least not without supervision by a Guru. Kundalini will automatically rise by any meditation or spiritual practice. Hence, the term "Kundalini sydrome" or "spiritual emergency" was introduced into psychiatry, when a lot of people who started Yoga and meditation practices started displaying the same symptoms. In Hatha Yoga, Kundalini can be directly made to rise, by doing a series of exercises like asanas, pranayama, mudras and bandhas, which directly force the change of the energy dynamics of the body. It is called 'Hatha' because Hatha means to force. Hence, you are literally forcing the Kundalini to rise. This requires preliminary purification practices though(like shat kriyas, nadi shodhana) as you prepare your body for the Kundalini otherwise it can be dangerous. A common metaphor is this: If you have a 10 watt bulb but a 1000 volt current, you will blow the bulb, but if you have a bulb that can take 1000 volts, you will be fine.

I would recommend you take up the preliminary purification practices.

I think my reply probably addressed your question the most directly.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

Hmm OK where as the traditional idea is everything is what, nothing, thought, god, dependent on the existence of something else, the big I?

I think you may find my thread "The nature of Brahman in the Upanishads" helpful. Non-duality or Advaita refers to 'Brahman' in the Upanishads. The Upanishads constantly make statements like "Everything is Brahman" "You are Brahman" "Self is Brahman" which lends to a non-dualistic interpretation. However, they also refer to Brahman as He, The Lord, the creator, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, which lends to a theistic interpretation. If you combine both you come up with a pantheist interpretation.

Brahman is basically the Hindu concept of God. How it is interpreted is a matter of great debate in Vedanta philosophy, of which Advaita or non-dualism is only one school. I belong to that school and we hold Brahman to be pure existence, consciousness and bliss. However, we also hold the view that Brahman appears to us the conditioned soul, as externally God. The non-dual understanding where we realise that God, souls universe are all the non-dual Brahman is the superior understanding(according to us) Others, have different schools of thought, that God is actually the true understanding and Brahman is the inferior understanding. Some hold we and God are one and others that we are God are different. There is a lot of diversity of thought on this topic.

Do not be fooled by attempts by so called 'atheist Hindus' to portray Brahman as matter/energy/unified field. It is not supported by any single school of Hindu philosophy. These are just recent attempts by some modern secular Hindus to legitimise their beliefs by trying to force Hindu concepts to conform with modern scientific ones(pseudoscience basically)

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Kundalini is the concept of Shakti (energy) being stored at the bottom of one's spine. It is usually controlled through meditation though it is thought that traumatic experiences in life can "awaken" it in someone who is unprepared. Usually, it is recommended that one seeks advice and training from a guru, well versed in such concepts. So that the person can learn to properly control it.
I live in Brisbane Australia and there is quite the large Hindu community here. Maybe attend a few temples randomly and strike up friendships with people. Go to festivals (there's usually one happening somewhere) and get some contacts. I'm sure you can find some guru to help you if you so desire.

Kundalini is not controlled through meditation practice, though generally it is more likely to be aroused in an aspirant who meditates. If once fully aroused, it is not controllable and will run its course, though ceasing and/or reducing meditation practice can mitigate against some of the traumatic experiences but this will probably also result in an incomplete chakra unfoldment in this present life.

 

[SomeRandom]

Kundalini is not controlled through meditation practice, though generally it is more likely to be aroused in an aspirant who meditates. If once fully aroused, it is not controllable and will run its course, though ceasing and/or reducing meditation practice can mitigate against some of the traumatic experiences but this will probably also result in an incomplete chakra unfoldment in this present life.

That all depends on who you ask. It is more akin to awakening a dormant energy stored in the body. This dormant power when awakened can then be used towards spiritual gain. Thereby controlling it through meditation. However brief.
But I'm sure you can find some.......interesting techniques to try to harness this energy through meditative practices fully. Not sure how successfully though.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That all depends on who you ask. It is more akin to awakening a dormant energy stored in the body. This dormant power when awakened can then be used towards spiritual gain. Thereby controlling it through meditation. However brief.
But I'm sure you can find some.......interesting techniques to try to harness this energy through meditative practices fully. Not sure how successfully though.

Sure, there are many opinions about it, but the esoteric tradition holds that Shakti, the serpent power, once fully aroused and not just stirred, is a feminine spiritual power of such intensity, that it will literally burn away all blockages of the chakras due to imbalances of the Ida and Pingala nadis energy flows to the Ajna chakra whereby union with Shiva, the male spiritual power, can occur. This union will bring into balance the energy flows of the Ida and Pingala nadis such that the residual spiritual energy from the Muladhara chakra will then flow up through the now opened Sushumna nadi to the Sahaswara chakra, aka the thousand petaled lotus, which will begin to open.

The Kundalini process is an extremely difficult and unspeakably painful process if it aroused prematurely, madness and suicide are possible outcomes. But for those who have the courage, worthiness, and strength to see it through, it will lead to enlightenment.

 

[SomeRandom]

Sure, there are many opinions about it, but the esoteric tradition holds that Shakti, the serpent power, once fully aroused and not just stirred, is a feminine spiritual power of such intensity, that it will literally burn away all blockages of the chakras due to imbalances of the Ida and Pingala nadis energy flows to the Ajna chakra whereby union with Shiva, the male spiritual power, can occur. This union will bring into balance the energy flows of the Ida and Pingala nadis such that the residual spiritual energy from the Muladhara chakra will then flow up through the now opened Sushumna nadi to the Sahaswara chakra, aka the thousand petaled lotus, which will begin to open.

The Kundalini process is an extremely difficult and unspeakably painful process if it aroused prematurely, madness and suicide are possible outcomes. But for those who have the courage, worthiness, and strength to see it through, it will lead to enlightenment.

Oh mate, I personally wouldn't mess with Kaundalini lightly. Like that's just like asking for trouble.

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh mate, I personally wouldn't mess with Kaundalini lightly. Like that's just like asking for trouble.

The problem, (as I see it), is this search for the intense (but temporal) experience. There are people out there that are literally addicted to adrenaline rushes. So they parachute off buildings, etc. looking for the next adrenaline rush. Playing with kundalini is another. It becomes the goal. But on the path to realisation, it's a side track. I'm reminded of the old fable about the tortoise and the hare. In most sampradayas, especially those that have remained in the east primarily, and aren't catering to the thrill seekers, are like the tortoise, slow but sure. That will ensure a permanent transformation.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Oh mate, I personally wouldn't mess with Kaundalini lightly. Like that's just like asking for trouble.

Precisely. but for those, for whatever reason, find that Kundalini has been aroused, forewarned is forearmed, and they may prepare for either mitigation through ceasing meditation, or proceeding with the knowledge that the tremendous suffering ahead has a light at the end, as well as being forewarned that suicide is no escape from it, for karma and reincarnation are immutable principles of the divine pilgrimage.

Some research papers on the subject for those interested....