I see no value in atheism

[Rick O'Shez]

....plus there is no belief of god in Buddhism.

Thank God for that!

 

[Curious George]

Thanks for your interesting reply.

I find it interesting that you find that some of the things you mention do not have interpersonal answers. I am astonished that you think right and wrong are merely personal.

Some of your examples puzzle me. Surely, for example, how you feel has a definite existance that could in principle be discovered by observation. One could simply ask you, for instance.

As for a book, in the first place, I am quite busy enough with my job helping to protect people from harmful radiation, in the second, several effective, and tolerably famous, books have already appeared in the last few years that do just what you request.

Please allow me to recount a story. This may not be relevant: I just like it and our conversation somehow brought it to mind.

A physics student was asked how to measure the height of a building using a barometer. He answered that he could drop it from the roof and time its fall, or set it in the sun and compare its shadow with that of the building, or say to the custodian "I will give you this fine barometer if you tell me the height of the building".

It puzzles me to no end that people simply refuse to acknowledge that religion may be necessary for some or not necessary for some.

Usually this stems from personal baggage. Do you think that is the case for you?

 

[JoStories]

Your lucky because you follow the Buddha, I am pointing more to Christianity, plus there is no belief of god in Buddhism.

Some have a belief. I am a thiest but it's more of a generalized concept and nothing like organized religion holds.

 

[JoStories]

Well why take that position? Why make atheism a positive claim when it is not?

IMO, to hold the position that there is no God requires as understanding of what God is. And then one, based on logic and reason, rejects such a notion. It's just my way of viewing this. Obviously it is not one shared by all and I accept that Bunyip.

 

[Bunyip]

IMO, to hold the position that there is no God requires as understanding of what God is. And then one, based on logic and reason, rejects such a notion. It's just my way of viewing this. Obviously it is not one shared by all and I accept that Bunyip.

Why? Surely not holding the position of believing in a god is just the natural default? A god concept you are not aware of you are atheist in relation to. Atheism does not demand knowledge of any specific god.

 

[Looncall]

It puzzles me to no end that people simply refuse to acknowledge that religion may be necessary for some or not necessary for some.

Usually this stems from personal baggage. Do you think that is the case for you?

I do not disagree with that notion. I am perfectly willing to agree that some people's minds have been so warped by religion that they can no longer do without it or perhaps they need to outsource their thinking for some reason. People vary.

What does that have to do with whether the propositions of religion are true statements?

 

[Curious George]

I do not disagree with that notion. I am perfectly willing to agree that some people's minds have been so warped by religion that they can no longer do without it or perhaps they need to outsource their thinking for some reason. People vary.

What does that have to do with whether the propositions of religion are true statements?

Because truth takes a backseat to necessity.

 

[JoStories]

Why? Surely not holding the position of believing in a god is just the natural default? A god concept you are not aware of you are atheist in relation to. Atheism does not demand knowledge of any specific god.

And I understand that is your views Bunyip. I have stated that. My father held that same view. We argued about that all the time and goodness, it was fun! He was so sure his view was right. Lol...we did have a good time doing this over Glen Livet. Please understand it's just my POV.

 

[Bunyip]

And I understand that is your views Bunyip. I have stated that. My father held that same view. We argued about that all the time and goodness, it was fun! He was so sure his view was right. Lol...we did have a good time doing this over Glen Livet. Please understand it's just my POV.

I am curious why you would see atheism as a positive claim?

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Edit: I have to correct something here in this post which is that there is already a term that replaces my made up term "devoid theist." It would be "implicit atheism." Therefore, just replace my made up term with that one.'

I have idea wtf you are trying to commincate!!!

First off, I am going to explain something about atheism. When babies are born, I don't think we would even refer to them as atheists. '

Agreed! We shouldn't refer to babies as atheist of theists, as engineers, as pirates, as illegal aliens, or as rock stars!

Atheism is a disbelief in gods. But since these babies would not even have any disbelief at all since they are not even aware that there is no god for them to develop any sense of disbelief in the first place, then I don't think they would even be atheists. We might have to come up with a different term instead. I will just make up a term and call it "devoid theist."'

Wow!I'm not even sure I can follow you logic except to say if there is nothing YOU ARE TOLD TO BELIVE IN, then there is nothing to believe in! WTF? Have your read what you wrote? This is an important step bofoer posting in front of THE WHOLE FICKING WORLD!QQ

But where I am getting at with this is that if all human beings were devoid theists, then it wouldn't make any difference if we were atheists. We would still be just as encouraged and motivated to live this one and only life. Therefore, I see no value in realizing that we are all just going to die and not live on in some afterlife. The only value here would be living life in of itself. A devoid theist would find just as much good value and would be just as inspired and motivated to live this one and only life just as an atheist would.'

WTF are you trying to say? I'm a functional atheist; I have no idea wtf you are trying to get across?!

That being the case, it is only this beautiful and great life itself that holds value. '[/quoteOK, In directing this one sentence I recognze brillance. You are on the rich track, but have a long way to go! (My dear friend, it is only THIS LIFE THAT HOLDS VALUE]

Actually, I think people who are devoid theists do have this idea of living forever. If you are unaware of death, then the only thing you are aware of is living. '

Seriously? You need to go to 3rd of 5th grade and work yourself up to adult level?

So, in a sense, you would be aware oTHAT HOLD VVALUEood lives. So the greatest life can only be defined as living forever in the lives that we personally deem as the greatest value for us.'

Dude! Feel to free to contact me off-line with questions,...

But being aware of mortality holds no value. As a matter of fact, there are many people who are depressed, fearful, and have a sense of less good value and worth in their lives knowing that they will just forever die in the end. Why is this? It's not just because of some irrational thought these people are having. It is because fear and depression are natural stress responses. Depression, in addition to being a chemical imbalance or something wrong with the brain, is also a natural stress response to life's stressors. It warns us when something is wrong in our lives that hinders our survival.

Since death obviously hinders are survival, then it is only expected and natural for many people to feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. about the very idea of dying even if it is somehow an irrational stress response. If you were told that by tomorrow you would die from some illness, then it is only natural and expected that you would feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. just as natural as it would be for an atheist to also feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. about dying. People who don't feel this way just simply means that their minds are wired differently and just aren't bothered by the idea of dying as an atheist.

Therefore, since being a devoid theist would bring us the greatest lives, then it is mortality that is the problem here since it makes so many people depressed and such. Even if there are many people who just get over that stress, mortality is still a problem for many people. Therefore, it needs to be eliminated through a cure in the future.

Animals all live just perfectly fine not being aware of their death (limited lifespan). As a matter of fact, if one of these animals were to be somehow suddenly aware of their limited life and that they are going to eventually die, then that would only serve to cause them depression, fear, rage, etc. So just as it is with them, we are also better off not being aware of mortality. But at the same time, not being aware of mortality would prevent us from trying to find a cure for it.

Edit: I have to correct something here in this post which is that there is already a term that replaces my made up term "devoid theist." It would be "implicit atheism." Therefore, just replace my made up term with that one.

First off, I am going to explain something about atheism. When babies are born, I don't think we would even refer to them as atheists. Atheism is a disbelief in gods. But since these babies would not even have any disbelief at all since they are not even aware that there is no god for them to develop any sense of disbelief in the first place, then I don't think they would even be atheists. We might have to come up with a different term instead. I will just make up a term and call it "devoid theist."

But where I am getting at with this is that if all human beings were devoid theists, then it wouldn't make any difference if we were atheists. We would still be just as encouraged and motivated to live this one and only life. Therefore, I see no value in realizing that we are all just going to die and not live on in some afterlife. The only value here would be living life in of itself. A devoid theist would find just as much good value and would be just as inspired and motivated to live this one and only life just as an atheist would.

That being the case, it is only this beautiful and great life itself that holds value. Actually, I think people who are devoid theists do have this idea of living forever. If you are unaware of death, then the only thing you are aware of is living. So, in a sense, you would be aware of nothing but living on forever. Therefore, it is the idea of living forever that holds the greatest value for people who are doing just fine in life and are living their good lives. So the greatest life can only be defined as living forever in the lives that we personally deem as the greatest value for us.

But being aware of mortality holds no value. As a matter of fact, there are many people who are depressed, fearful, and have a sense of less good value and worth in their lives knowing that they will just forever die in the end. Why is this? It's not just because of some irrational thought these people are having. It is because fear and depression are natural stress responses. Depression, in addition to being a chemical imbalance or something wrong with the brain, is also a natural stress response to life's stressors. It warns us when something is wrong in our lives that hinders our survival.

Since death obviously hinders are survival, then it is only expected and natural for many people to feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. about the very idea of dying even if it is somehow an irrational stress response. If you were told that by tomorrow you would die from some illness, then it is only natural and expected that you would feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. just as natural as it would be for an atheist to also feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. about dying. People who don't feel this way just simply means that their minds are wired differently and just aren't bothered by the idea of dying as an atheist.

Therefore, since being a devoid theist would bring us the greatest lives, then it is mortality that is the problem here since it makes so many people depressed and such. Even if there are many people who just get over that stress, mortality is still a problem for many people. Therefore, it needs to be eliminated through a cure in the future.

Animals all live just perfectly fine not being aware of their death (limited lifespan). As a matter of fact, if one of these animals were to be somehow suddenly aware of their limited life and that they are going to eventually die, then that would only serve to cause them depression, fear, rage, etc. So just as it is with them, we are also better off not being aware of mortality. But at the same time, not being aware of mortality would prevent us from trying to find a cure for it.

The sine qua non of atheism is a lack of belief in God. Some atheists may maintain various other positions on the non-existence or impossibility of Gods, or even militant anti-religious views, but these are add-ons. The single, essential, definitive feature in atheism is non-belief.
Non-belief doesn't develop out of belief in or even awareness of theism. Non-belief is our epistemic default position. Babies, therefore, are atheists. Not "strong" atheists, of course, but basic, "weak" atheists



.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Edit: I have to correct something here in this post which is that there is already a term that replaces my made up term "devoid theist." It would be "implicit atheism." Therefore, just replace my made up term with that one.

First off, I am going to explain something about atheism. When babies are born, I don't think we would even refer to them as atheists. Atheism is a disbelief in gods. But since these babies would not even have any disbelief at all since they are not even aware that there is no god for them to develop any sense of disbelief in the first place, then I don't think they would even be atheists. We might have to come up with a different term instead. I will just make up a term and call it "devoid theist."

But where I am getting at with this is that if all human beings were devoid theists, then it wouldn't make any difference if we were atheists. We would still be just as encouraged and motivated to live this one and only life. Therefore, I see no value in realizing that we are all just going to die and not live on in some afterlife. The only value here would be living life in of itself. A devoid theist would find just as much good value and would be just as inspired and motivated to live this one and only life just as an atheist would.

That being the case, it is only this beautiful and great life itself that holds value. Actually, I think people who are devoid theists do have this idea of living forever. If you are unaware of death, then the only thing you are aware of is living. So, in a sense, you would be aware of nothing but living on forever. Therefore, it is the idea of living forever that holds the greatest value for people who are doing just fine in life and are living their good lives. So the greatest life can only be defined as living forever in the lives that we personally deem as the greatest value for us.

But being aware of mortality holds no value. As a matter of fact, there are many people who are depressed, fearful, and have a sense of less good value and worth in their lives knowing that they will just forever die in the end. Why is this? It's not just because of some irrational thought these people are having. It is because fear and depression are natural stress responses. Depression, in addition to being a chemical imbalance or something wrong with the brain, is also a natural stress response to life's stressors. It warns us when something is wrong in our lives that hinders our survival.

Since death obviously hinders are survival, then it is only expected and natural for many people to feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. about the very idea of dying even if it is somehow an irrational stress response. If you were told that by tomorrow you would die from some illness, then it is only natural and expected that you would feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. just as natural as it would be for an atheist to also feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. about dying. People who don't feel this way just simply means that their minds are wired differently and just aren't bothered by the idea of dying as an atheist.

Therefore, since being a devoid theist would bring us the greatest lives, then it is mortality that is the problem here since it makes so many people depressed and such. Even if there are many people who just get over that stress, mortality is still a problem for many people. Therefore, it needs to be eliminated through a cure in the future.

Animals all live just perfectly fine not being aware of their death (limited lifespan). As a matter of fact, if one of these animals were to be somehow suddenly aware of their limited life and that they are going to eventually die, then that would only serve to cause them depression, fear, rage, etc. So just as it is with them, we are also better off not being aware of mortality. But at the same time, not being aware of mortality would prevent us from trying to find a cure for it.

Dribble...dribble..dribble...Do you see any value in theism?

 

[leibowde84]

Edit: I have to correct something here in this post which is that there is already a term that replaces my made up term "devoid theist." It would be "implicit atheism." Therefore, just replace my made up term with that one.

First off, I am going to explain something about atheism. When babies are born, I don't think we would even refer to them as atheists. Atheism is a disbelief in gods. But since these babies would not even have any disbelief at all since they are not even aware that there is no god for them to develop any sense of disbelief in the first place, then I don't think they would even be atheists. We might have to come up with a different term instead. I will just make up a term and call it "devoid theist."

But where I am getting at with this is that if all human beings were devoid theists, then it wouldn't make any difference if we were atheists. We would still be just as encouraged and motivated to live this one and only life. Therefore, I see no value in realizing that we are all just going to die and not live on in some afterlife. The only value here would be living life in of itself. A devoid theist would find just as much good value and would be just as inspired and motivated to live this one and only life just as an atheist would.

That being the case, it is only this beautiful and great life itself that holds value. Actually, I think people who are devoid theists do have this idea of living forever. If you are unaware of death, then the only thing you are aware of is living. So, in a sense, you would be aware of nothing but living on forever. Therefore, it is the idea of living forever that holds the greatest value for people who are doing just fine in life and are living their good lives. So the greatest life can only be defined as living forever in the lives that we personally deem as the greatest value for us.

But being aware of mortality holds no value. As a matter of fact, there are many people who are depressed, fearful, and have a sense of less good value and worth in their lives knowing that they will just forever die in the end. Why is this? It's not just because of some irrational thought these people are having. It is because fear and depression are natural stress responses. Depression, in addition to being a chemical imbalance or something wrong with the brain, is also a natural stress response to life's stressors. It warns us when something is wrong in our lives that hinders our survival.

Since death obviously hinders are survival, then it is only expected and natural for many people to feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. about the very idea of dying even if it is somehow an irrational stress response. If you were told that by tomorrow you would die from some illness, then it is only natural and expected that you would feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. just as natural as it would be for an atheist to also feel depressed, enraged, fearful, etc. about dying. People who don't feel this way just simply means that their minds are wired differently and just aren't bothered by the idea of dying as an atheist.

Therefore, since being a devoid theist would bring us the greatest lives, then it is mortality that is the problem here since it makes so many people depressed and such. Even if there are many people who just get over that stress, mortality is still a problem for many people. Therefore, it needs to be eliminated through a cure in the future.

Animals all live just perfectly fine not being aware of their death (limited lifespan). As a matter of fact, if one of these animals were to be somehow suddenly aware of their limited life and that they are going to eventually die, then that would only serve to cause them depression, fear, rage, etc. So just as it is with them, we are also better off not being aware of mortality. But at the same time, not being aware of mortality would prevent us from trying to find a cure for it.

I think you might want to pick up a dictionary before posting threads, buddy. "Atheism" is not necessarily a "disbelief" in God ... it is merely the lack of belief in God. I think it is undeniable that a baby would be considered an "atheist" or "agnostic". And, since, by definition, all agnostics are atheists, I cannot see how your argument has merit. It is the very definition of a "straw-man" as you changed the definition of the term to include only those who disbelieve in God. In actuality, anyone who lacks a belief in any deity is an atheist.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

IMO, to hold the position that there is no God requires as understanding of what God is. And then one, based on logic and reason, rejects such a notion. It's just my way of viewing this. Obviously it is not one shared by all and I accept that Bunyip.

I'd agree with that, just because most babies grow up to be skeptical of atheism, doesn't mean they originally fell for it by default.

 

[leibowde84]

Life itself is not frightening. Why would I be afraid of something natural? I don't just believe in spirits I KNOW they exist and that there is an afterlife. Because I've seen it. You don't have to be dead to see it. Dreams play a part in this, too.

How do you "know" these things? Beyond personal subjective experience, what evidence do you have?

 

[JoStories]

I am curious why you would see atheism as a positive claim?

Where did you get that I see it as positive. I didn't say that. I see it as what it is, rejection. A place of no belief. IMO, there is the rejection of any theistic POV or the absence of one. One could argue that babies fall into the latter but I don't see it that way. A position of atheism requires that one have some notion of what a god or God is. IMO of course

 

[ArtieE]

And, since, by definition, all agnostics are atheists

Not at all. An atheist is a person who is not a theist. A person without belief in gods. An agnostic is a person who doesn't know whether gods exist or not.

 

[leibowde84]

Not at all. An atheist is a person who is not a theist. A person without belief in gods. An agnostic is a person who doesn't know whether gods exist or not.

So, by your definition, an atheist is someone "without belief in gods". An agnostic is one that does not know whether God exists.

Does an agnostic lack belief in God? Yes. Thus, according to your own definition of atheism, an agnostic would have to be included, right? I'm not sure where you are coming from because according to your definitions, agnostics are all atheists, as they "lack a belief in a deity". Obviously, if one does not have an opinion on the subject (doesn't know whether God exists), then they "lack a belief in God". Thus, they would have to be considered an "atheist" as well.

 

[JoStories]

I think you might want to pick up a dictionary before posting threads, buddy. "Atheism" is not necessarily a "disbelief" in God ... it is merely the lack of belief in God. I think it is undeniable that a baby would be considered an "atheist" or "agnostic". And, since, by definition, all agnostics are atheists, I cannot see how your argument has merit. It is the very definition of a "straw-man" as you changed the definition of the term to include only those who disbelieve in God. In actuality, anyone who lacks a belief in any deity is an atheist.

Well said and that was the position that my dad held. He just couldn't see it. I agree it's just a lack but I do think that that lack requires an understanding of what God is so to speak. I see that is not entirely popular here, and dad would argue with me no end but I just think any persons need the ability to have abstract thought to understand.

 

[JoStories]

So, by your definition, an atheist is someone "without belief in gods". An agnostic is one that does not know whether God exists.

Does an agnostic lack belief in God? Yes. Thus, according to your own definition of atheism, an agnostic would have to be included, right? I'm not sure where you are coming from because according to your definitions, agnostics are all atheists, as they "lack a belief in a deity". Obviously, if one does not have an opinion on the subject (doesn't know whether God exists), then they "lack a belief in God". Thus, they would have to be considered an "atheist" as well.

Forgive me. But are you arguing here that agnostics have a lack of belief in God? I would disagree with you if that is the case. I see it as kind of being on the fence. They don't reject the idea completely but rather see no evidence for or against. Or am I reading you wrong ...yet again

 

[leibowde84]

Forgive me. But are you arguing here that agnostics have a lack of belief in God? I would disagree with you if that is the case. I see it as kind of being on the fence. They don't reject the idea completely but rather see no evidence for or against. Or am I reading you wrong ...yet again

My point is that "a lack of belief in God" in no way requires one to reject the idea of God existing. It could merely mean that the person has not been convinced as of yet and are still "on the fence" (i.e. "agnostic"). I think that, according to the definition of the term "atheism", all agnostics are atheists, as they lack a belief in God. There is no requirement for one to believe that God does not exist to be an atheist. According to the definition, anyone who does not believe in a deity is an atheist.