I see no value in atheism

[leibowde84]

It's not really part of the definition of rocks that they can't move on their own. And as said, autonomy is another issue.

The example was that in fact the rock could stay put or roll down the hill. Supposing then that the rock stays put, then that is a decision. And when there is a decision, you can ask the question what made the decision turn out the way it did? And the answer to that question can only be arrived at by choosing the answer.

The definition of the word "rock" is provided below. How do you explain the possibility that rocks have the ability to make decisions having acknowledged what the word means?

rock (from Google Language)
räk/
noun

1. 1.
   the solid mineral material forming part of the surface of the earth and other similar planets, exposed on the surface or underlying the soil or oceans.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

The definition of the word "rock" is provided below. How do you explain the possibility that rocks have the ability to make decisions having acknowledged what the word means?

rock (from Google Language)
räk/
noun

1. 1.
   the solid mineral material forming part of the surface of the earth and other similar planets, exposed on the surface or underlying the soil or oceans.

You are just changing the example that the rock is forced to roll down the hill, and that it couldn't have stayed put....... That is the way you argue, you just say anything whatsoever to keep on rejecting subjectivity so that you can prop up your self confidence with facts about good and evil. You only have an attitude to fight against subjectivity as support, the arguments you provide are nonsense.

I am not very familiar with the processes in rocks. Cristalizing in rocks may have some freedom, heat dissapition, whatever...

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I suppose I'm not necessarily arguing about any of this.

However you are making note of this difference yourself. I just see mostly that the "scientific" minded don't want to confuse opinion with fact either.

Yes in scientific process opinion is not a valid part of the process. Science can't work with opinion. However we don't live in a scientific laboratory.

If you want to prove something to someone else you don't use opinion. You just accept opinion is true for you. I find most people I discuss things with accept this, including atheists.

I think you are already arguing tendentiously against opinion, the way you talk about opinion as not fact, not science. It is same like somebody arguing about freedom only in terms of that it is not forced. It comes across as that you understand and accept fact, and opinion is other which you don't understand and don't really accept. Yes opinion is distinct from fact, but what then is opinion?

No, atheists don't accept the procedure to reach a conclusion about what the agency of a decision is, by choosing the conclusion. That is the way it is.

 

[Nakosis]

I think you are already arguing tendentiously against opinion, the way you talk about opinion as not fact, not science. It is same like somebody arguing about freedom only in terms of that it is not forced. It comes across as that you understand and accept fact, and opinion is other which you don't understand and don't really accept. Yes opinion is distinct from fact, but what then is opinion?

Science won't accept opinion as providing proof. That just the way it's works. has nothing to do with my position on it.

The conclusions however, yes are a matter of decision and agency and likely wrong, often as not. It requires facts to back the opinion if you want to convince someone else of your opinion.

My opinions are based on my experience. The facts aren't based on my experience. Since we all undergo different experiences, opinion alone is not very persuasive.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Science won't accept opinion as providing proof. That just the way it's works. has nothing to do with my position on it.

The conclusions however, yes are a matter of decision and agency and likely wrong, often as not. It requires facts to back the opinion if you want to convince someone else of your opinion.

My opinions are based on my experience. The facts aren't based on my experience. Since we all undergo different experiences, opinion alone is not very persuasive.

Yeah that is really arguing tendentiously against subjectivity altogether. You argue everything towards fact, which requires evidence. So then opinions must be backed up with facts, and opinion alone is not persuasive.

I like icecream, the painting is beautiful. That is opinion. There is nothing wrong with it. Same, I believe in God, is opinion. There is nothing wrong with it, or you do not understand or accept subjectivity.

Can you reverse the argument, and talk about the "deficiencies" of fact, in that they are not opinions?

 

[ArtieE]

Yeah that is really arguing tendentiously against subjectivity altogether. You argue everything towards fact, which requires evidence. So then opinions must be backed up with facts, and opinion alone is not persuasive.

Of course opinions should be backed up with facts otherwise they're worthless. Please read how we form opinions. How to Form an Opinion: 11 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow

I like icecream, the painting is beautiful. That is opinion. There is nothing wrong with it. Same, I believe in God, is opinion. There is nothing wrong with it, or you do not understand or accept subjectivity.

"I like raping little girls to death. That is opinion. There is nothing wrong with it, or you do not understand or accept subjectivity".

 

[Willamena]

No actually there should have been a comma in there. Obviously you did not read the rest as it contradicts this one sentence. You found you quote to mine then ignored the rest. Besides I have corrected my mistake.

Commas are important.

Delusions, dreams and hallucinations are all experiences of events which are not factually happening in reality. You can merely change a dream to a hallucination. All are tricks of the mind either directly in the mind or by sensory organs. It is not the source but the events are not real

I do disagree, so there's nothing more to say.

 

[Willamena]

You are not aware of the need for a decision before?

Sure. But the need for a decision isn't making the decision.

 

[Nakosis]

Yeah that is really arguing tendentiously against subjectivity altogether. You argue everything towards fact, which requires evidence. So then opinions must be backed up with facts, and opinion alone is not persuasive.

I like icecream, the painting is beautiful. That is opinion. There is nothing wrong with it. Same, I believe in God, is opinion. There is nothing wrong with it, or you do not understand or accept subjectivity.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with your opinion based on your experience.

Can you reverse the argument, and talk about the "deficiencies" of fact, in that they are not opinions?

The problem with facts? There are, often enough, inconvenient exceptions. People invest a lot into theories and they don't want to verify every possible exception.

Facts are often situational. You have to isolate extraneous influences which often can isolate it from reality.

In the laboratory you have to limit what can affect your experiment. In trying to isolate cause and effect. However this also takes it out of the natural environment. What happen in the laboratory is not always what happens in nature.

Generally facts work well enough, often enough to provide persuasive proof. Doesn't necessarily mean they are precise. Just accurate enough to work with.

See I can show you by following the same steps that you can duplicate the results. So you can accept the truth of that for yourself. I'm providing you the same experience I had.

With God for example. I can't provide you with my subjective experience with regard to God or beauty or love.I have to rely on you having had similar experiences. I've no facts to persuade you to accept anything I say. However if we have had common experiences, maybe we can relate to that.

 

[Nakosis]

Sure. But the need for a decision isn't making the decision.

So somewhere between the need for the decision and being aware of the choice made, you lose conscious awareness of the process? Or is it you feel you have no control over the process?

 

[Willamena]

So somewhere between the need for the decision and being aware of the choice made, you lose conscious awareness of the process? Or is it you feel you have no control over the process?

No, I'm not suggesting that you're unconscious while doing it. I'm only suggesting that it's unconsciously done. "Control over the process" is moot. We linguistically insert that "I" in there to "do" it (subject verbed), and it's done.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Yes, there is nothing wrong with your opinion based on your experience.



The problem with facts? There are, often enough, inconvenient exceptions. People invest a lot into theories and they don't want to verify every possible exception.

Facts are often situational. You have to isolate extraneous influences which often can isolate it from reality.

In the laboratory you have to limit what can affect your experiment. In trying to isolate cause and effect. However this also takes it out of the natural environment. What happen in the laboratory is not always what happens in nature.

Generally facts work well enough, often enough to provide persuasive proof. Doesn't necessarily mean they are precise. Just accurate enough to work with.

See I can show you by following the same steps that you can duplicate the results. So you can accept the truth of that for yourself. I'm providing you the same experience I had.

With God for example. I can't provide you with my subjective experience with regard to God or beauty or love.I have to rely on you having had similar experiences. I've no facts to persuade you to accept anything I say. However if we have had common experiences, maybe we can relate to that.

Which was just to make the point that opinion and fact are each valid in their own right.

People can share emotions, belong to a group and decide as one sharing the spirit. Like with the American spirit. Also marriage obviously.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

No, I'm not suggesting that you're unconscious while doing it. I'm only suggesting that it's unconsciously done. "Control over the process" is moot. We linguistically insert that "I" in there to "do" it (subject verbed), and it's done.

Consciousness seems to be a complex thing. I would rather say that consciousness is a complex way of deciding, rather than it is not deciding. When making a decision to act, we first make all kinds of sub decisions in imagination to see what the consequences of choosing different options may be. Then after choosing in imagination we still have to choose to act, which is another decisionmaking process.

 

[ArtieE]

Which was just to make the point that opinion and fact are each valid in their own right.

You have to understand the difference between opinion and preference. When you are talking about ice cream and paintings you are talking about what you like, your preferences. And when you start mixing in religion your faulty reasoning produces incomprehensible posts.

"An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence ... By themselves, opinions have little power to convince. You must always let your reader know what your evidence is and how it led you to arrive at your opinion." Distinguishing Between Fact, Opinion, Belief, and Prejudice

Preference is
preference - definition of preference by The Free Dictionary

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

You have to understand the difference between opinion and preference. When you are talking about ice cream and paintings you are talking about what you like, your preferences. And when you start mixing in religion your faulty reasoning produces incomprehensible posts.

"An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence ... By themselves, opinions have little power to convince. You must always let your reader know what your evidence is and how it led you to arrive at your opinion." Distinguishing Between Fact, Opinion, Belief, and Prejudice

Preference is
preference - definition of preference by The Free Dictionary

Authoritarian huffing and puffing. I deconstructed how forming an opinion works in regards to the statement the painting is beautiful. That is called having an argument while what you do is referencing authority.

An opinion is arrived at by choosing about what it is that makes a decision turn out the way it does. Thus like and dislike are in reference to love and hate as agency of decisions. That is in line with common discourse, it is in line with the traditional concept of free will where the spirit or soul chooses. It is the basic logical structure that all people use.

 

[ArtieE]

An opinion is arrived at by choosing about what it is that makes a decision turn out the way it does.

"An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence." When are you going to stop making up your own weird incomprehensible definitions? Opinion | Define Opinion at Dictionary.com

Thus like and dislike are in reference to love and hate as agency of decisions. That is in line with common discourse, it is in line with the traditional concept of free will where the spirit or soul chooses. It is the basic logical structure that all people use.

It is impossible to decipher the meaning of this. Try using different words and maybe one sentence at a time.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

"An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence." When are you going to stop making up your own weird incomprehensible definitions? Opinion | Define Opinion at Dictionary.com It is impossible to decipher the meaning of this. Try using different words and maybe one sentence at a time.

Which is because you define choosing in terms of sorting out the best option. The self congratulation that whenever you make a decision you by definition did what is best is how you achieve self confidence. And that makes you cognitive dissonant to deal with subjectivity and freedom. The logical structure is simpler than the rules of tic tac toe, yet you draw a complete blank. And then you make meaningless references to authority to keep your scheme of self congratulation in tact.

 

[Shad]

Commas are important.

Yup

I do disagree, so there's nothing more to say.

So you do not think the events in delusions, hallucinations and dreams are factual events or not? The only point being made is that all 3 are not events that are actually happening but false events one think is happening.

 

[Shad]

Authoritarian huffing and puffing. I deconstructed how forming an opinion works in regards to the statement the painting is beautiful. That is called having an argument while what you do is referencing authority.

An opinion is arrived at by choosing about what it is that makes a decision turn out the way it does. Thus like and dislike are in reference to love and hate as agency of decisions. That is in line with common discourse, it is in line with the traditional concept of free will where the spirit or soul chooses. It is the basic logical structure that all people use.

Hence why it is flawed as most people, including yourself, do not use logic. Also the spirit is only an opinion not a fact thus you can only assert it as a basis for your opinion. Thus you have an opinion as the basis of forming opinions thus is circular nonsense. Whereas an agent, a person with a mind, is an objective fact but include no part of the spirit. Just as I said you insert your religious views into arguments is ad hoc rationalization, nothing more.

You only dismiss authority as no one of any philosophical nor scientific authority has evidence nor proven your claims to be true. Thus you invest authority within yourself then declare others are evil or wrong for rejecting your views all in your own authoritarian tone. Kettle meet Pot

 

[Willamena]

Yup





So you do not think the events in delusions, hallucinations and dreams are factual events or not? The only point being made is that all 3 are not events that are actually happening but false events one think is happening.

That doesn't matter. I can have a valid opinion about dream events, about imagined ice cream, and about Luke Skywalker.