Did you try to make sense of it all and had a short circuit and blew a fuse?
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I see no value in atheism
- Thread starter The Transcended Omniverse
- Start date
Do you believe that there is an elephant in my living room?
The opposite of "I believe that mermaids do not exist" is "I believe that mermaids do exist." I don't believe in mermaids doesn't say that you have the opposite belief it just says that you don't believe in mermaids. It doesn't say that you believe they don't exist. It might as well mean that you don't believe now but you aren't so sure that you're willing to state categorically that they don't exist.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Very True.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Some atheists ("weak atheists" or "agnostics") simply lack a belief in God. They do not actively believe that God does not exist. They don't have a belief either way. Honestly, I think this is the most reasonable position to hold.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
All knowledge is belief by definition. Inferences based on experience. The word "knowledge" or "know" is not a part of the definition of "atheist", "agnostic", or "theist". They are all based solely on belief.
The term "know" only comes into play when discussing the subcategories of these terms (gnostic atheist, agnostic theist, etc.). The general terms are only based on beliefs.
Weak atheists have no belief either way, theists believe gods exist, strong atheists believe gods don't exist.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
So, where does knowledge fit in?
I think you mean "Some atheists ("weak atheists") simply lack a belief in God." Agnostics might very well have a belief in God. These are called "agnostic theists".
[A]gnosticism speaks toward knowledge claims. As such:
- Gnostics claim that the [non-]existence of gods is knowable.
- Agnostics claim that the [non-]existence of gods is not knowable.
When combined with [a]theism, we discover a matrix of four distinct stances:
- Gnostic theists assert that it is possible to know whether god(s) exist, and further claim to know that god(s) do exist. (Belief, as you correctly observed, is also implicit here.)
- Agnostic theists assert that it is not possible to know whether god(s) exist, but nevertheless believe in the existence of god(s).
- Agnostic atheists assert that it is not possible to know whether god(s) exist, and hold no beliefs in the existence of any gods.
- Gnostic atheists assert that it is possible to know whether god(s) exist, and further claim to know that no gods exist.
Agnostic atheists can be categorized still further:
- Agnostic strong atheists assert that (a) it is not possible to know whether god(s) exist; and (b) hold no beliefs in the existence of gods; and (c) actively believe that no gods exist.
- Agnostic weak atheists assert that (a) it is not possible to know whether god(s) exist; and (b) hold no beliefs in the existence of gods; but (c) have not adopted any beliefs regarding the non-existence of gods.
By definition, all gnostic atheists are strong atheists.
"A belief is an internal thought or memory which exists in one's mind." When what is believed to be true is confirmed to be true by independent and objective means it becomes knowledge. "I believe there's a car there" isn't knowing there's a car there. If it is confirmed by cameras or independent witnesses we know there's a car there.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Agnostic Theists are under the theist category as they believe in God, which is all that is necessary. Remember all knowledge is simply strong belief based in inferences.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
only some agnostics believe it is unknowable. Some merely lack belief either way. The definition of the term includes both. That is my point.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
That knowledge of the car is based on our belief that are senses are dependable. Still belief ... just strengthened with evidence.
Hmm. I suppose one can be agnostic toward gnosticism, if you'll pardon the word salad. Strong and weak agnostics? Is the additional clarification necessary or prudent? I'll have to give it some thought, admittedly.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I think it is the most reasonable position to not assume either way.
There's a big difference between saying
1. I'm an agnostic theist and
2. I'm a theist.
Number 1 says "I don't know for sure but I believe God exists".
Number 2 says "I believe God exists." He says nothing about what he does or doesn't know about the existence of God, only that he believes He exists.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I am not saying that they are the same thing. An agnostic theist is a more defined theist. They are theists who do not claim to "know" that God exists, but are fine with believing (kind of a confusion of meanings, but I'll go with it).
They are both certainly "theists" by definition, though, as the only requirement for theism is a basic belief in God.
If you see a UFO in the sky you have no way of knowing if there actually is a UFO in the sky or if it's all in your mind but you might believe there is a UFO in the sky. If it is confirmed by instruments or independent witnesses then everybody knows there's a UFO in the sky.