I Still Believe in the Tooth Fairy

[Quintessence]

The lives of children are full of stories - wonderful, magical stories that most of us have fond memories of that bring smiles to our faces.

Something happens, though, as most transition to adulthood. We are taught to devalue the old stories, largely because they are not "literally" true, and then set them aside. Sometimes, we denigrate ourselves for believing in these stories, telling ourselves that we were stupid and that now we are wise. Sometimes, we denigrate our caretakers for telling us these stories, calling them dishonest liars and feeling resentful. All the while, we often don't notice that we've simply replaced old stories with new ones, and that the new ones are still "just" stories.

But I digress. I'm making this thread because some thoughts came out in responding to another one around the forums, but it didn't feel like the right place for it. Instead I'm posting up what I wrote in that thread up here:

I never stopped "believing in" the Tooth Fairy. I never stopped "believing in" Santa either. They are fascinating tales that express important cultural values and relationships.

The legend of the Tooth Fairy helps blunt the pain and trauma of loosing one's teeth. For many children, this is both scary and painful. The Tooth Fairy provides recompense for suffering, and transforms the experience into something magical. We could do with a little more magic and imagination in our culture, I think; it is certainly more pleasurable than the ho-hum scrooge who wishes to disenchant the world and have us believe we are cogs in a meaningless machine. May this legend carry on and continue to inspire and bring meaning to our lives.

Same deal with the legend of Santa Claus. There are many lessons that can be learned by examining this mythos. Many like that the tale reinforces the notion that good things come to those who do good. This is something of a lie, but it is a good lie to believe given the alternative stories we could tell to the young. It isn't very inspiring to tell the story of "it doesn't matter what you do, $#@% happens and you don't have much control over your life." So we tell the story of "if you are on good behavior this year, gifts will come your way." I like that, don't you? Another great thing the tales of Santa do is help children learn to articulate their own values. Those letters mailed to Santa? They are children learning how to express what they want in life, which is an important skill for all of us to learn. What other lessons from this tale can you find?
​

What are your thoughts?

 

[Demonslayer]

Interesting topic and I have a good, true story to go along with it.

I've likely mentioned on these boards that from a very early age I had very strong doubts about the existence of God. As a very small child of course I believed whatever my parents told me, prayed every night like a good little boy, etc. But as soon as I started being able to think about it in a more adult-ish way, I just couldn't buy into the idea that this God was watching me, upset over every little transgression, and "punishing" me with a stubbed toe here or a spilled drink there for stuff I was doing behind my parents back, as they constantly told me.

Flash forward to the inevitable "Mom and Dad I know Santa isn't real" conversation that every kid has at some point with their parents. I told them the story, and my mother says "well I still believe in Santa Claus" and launched into a lesson very much like your OP. The idea being that "Santa Claus" was not a fat man in the North Pole, but a representation of the "Spirit of Giving." She ended by saying that "anyone who gives to those who need it ARE Santa Claus themselves." It was a powerful lesson for a 8 year old, and I remember it very clearly and thinking it was very cool that my parents and I were talking about it. I felt very adult.

So a few weeks later we're talking about God based on my CCD classes, and I say "mom, God is like Santa right, just a lesson to teach people how to be good and not really real, right Mom?"

"Right Mom?"

"right?"

Her jaw hit the floor and she started saying "No, no, no, no honey, God is very real..." and proceeded to bowl me over with the usual warnings of hell and damnation, etc. etc. I was shocked and a little saddened because even at that young age I had already pretty much made up my mine about a literal God. The figurative God made a lot of sense, in that if you learned the lessons of the stories of Jesus, you could learn some things about being good. Her vehement denial of my theory was kind of the last time I ever spoke to her objectively about religion.

So, Quint, my thoughts are that I very much like your idea of "still believing" in a story like Santa, based on the idea that once the story is no longer taken as literal, you don't want to discard the idea completely else risk losing the point of the story in the first place.

My further thought about that it that I feel dumping the literal idea of God should be a normal part of growing up for everyone, much like the eventual discarding of the literal tooth fairy and literal Santa. I don't think we were ever meant to maintain a literal believe in an angry overlord into our adulthood. I think the fact that so many of us DO maintain this literal belief our whole lives is detrimental, unhealthy, and leads to the bulk of the problems we see with religion today.

 

[Altfish]

Well, I haven't believed in Santa or the Tooth Fairy since I was about 7.
But as a parent and grandparent I have continued the myth, as with the Easter Bunny, all great fun and loved by my children.
The only myth that I have not perpetuated with my kids is the existence of a god, no good only harm can come from that belief.

 

[Tumah]

the inevitable "Mom and Dad I know Santa isn't real" conversation that every kid has at some point with their parents

Every kid?

 

[Quintessence]

I've likely mentioned on these boards that from a very early age I had very strong doubts about the existence of God.

You and I have that in common, perhaps, though maybe "strong doubts" isn't how I'd characterize my response to Biblical mythology as a kid. Mostly, I didn't find the stories interesting or compelling, because other genres had already grabbed my attention. Perhaps because of that I think I missed the Biblical literalism phase of interpreting that stuff, and I didn't grow up in a Biblical literalist household either.

So, Quint, my thoughts are that I very much like your idea of "still believing" in a story like Santa, based on the idea that once the story is no longer taken as literal, you don't want to discard the idea completely else risk losing the point of the story in the first place.

One interesting thing I've come across in my study of religions is the idea of stages of "spiritual development" so to speak. While I think these ideas have their problems, there is some merit in the approach. Mythological literalism represents what is considered an early stage of spiritual development - one that some people never move past - whereas seeing non-literal meaning and connection is a later stage. What I don't like about this model is the implied heirarchy - that mythological literalism is somehow more "primitive" than relational thinking. Based on the rest of your comments, you might not have a problem with this implied value assessment of the "lower" levels being worse than the "upper" levels, though. One of these days I should look into these theories in more detail... they are interesting.

In case people want to dig into this more, I'm referencing Fowler's "Stages of Faith," which is in part based upon general models of developmental psychology, from what I understand. There's a summary of it here, albeit a brief one.

 

[Koldo]

The lives of children are full of stories - wonderful, magical stories that most of us have fond memories of that bring smiles to our faces.

Something happens, though, as most transition to adulthood. We are taught to devalue the old stories, largely because they are not "literally" true, and then set them aside. Sometimes, we denigrate ourselves for believing in these stories, telling ourselves that we were stupid and that now we are wise. Sometimes, we denigrate our caretakers for telling us these stories, calling them dishonest liars and feeling resentful. All the while, we often don't notice that we've simply replaced old stories with new ones, and that the new ones are still "just" stories.

But I digress. I'm making this thread because some thoughts came out in responding to another one around the forums, but it didn't feel like the right place for it. Instead I'm posting up what I wrote in that thread up here:

I never stopped "believing in" the Tooth Fairy. I never stopped "believing in" Santa either. They are fascinating tales that express important cultural values and relationships.

The legend of the Tooth Fairy helps blunt the pain and trauma of loosing one's teeth. For many children, this is both scary and painful. The Tooth Fairy provides recompense for suffering, and transforms the experience into something magical. We could do with a little more magic and imagination in our culture, I think; it is certainly more pleasurable than the ho-hum scrooge who wishes to disenchant the world and have us believe we are cogs in a meaningless machine. May this legend carry on and continue to inspire and bring meaning to our lives.

Same deal with the legend of Santa Claus. There are many lessons that can be learned by examining this mythos. Many like that the tale reinforces the notion that good things come to those who do good. This is something of a lie, but it is a good lie to believe given the alternative stories we could tell to the young. It isn't very inspiring to tell the story of "it doesn't matter what you do, $#@% happens and you don't have much control over your life." So we tell the story of "if you are on good behavior this year, gifts will come your way." I like that, don't you? Another great thing the tales of Santa do is help children learn to articulate their own values. Those letters mailed to Santa? They are children learning how to express what they want in life, which is an important skill for all of us to learn. What other lessons from this tale can you find?
​

What are your thoughts?

I absolutely love fantasy, perhaps much more than I should, but I think that outright lying to children is not the way to go.

 

[Quintessence]

I absolutely love fantasy, perhaps much more than I should, but I think that outright lying to children is not the way to go.

All storytelling requires "lying," and I happily partake in it. If while we are telling a fantastic tale, we constantly tell the audience "now remember, this didn't literally happen!" it blunts the emotional resonance of the tale. To fully feel and experience the story, a good bard gets the listener to set aside their conventional perspective on reality and journey into another world. In order for stories to live and breathe as they should, we need to take them seriously, or understand them as real. Children in Western cultures do this much better than adults as a general rule, because they haven't been conditioned to draw strong boundaries between the apparent world and the otherworlds.

 

[Riverwolf]

My thoughts are:

First: The Tooth Fairy? Oh! That's actually a modern form of the old custom of Tooth Gift. That is, a gift was given to an infant on "the cutting of the first tooth." It's connected also to the God Ing/Freyr, because he was given Alfheim (Elfhome) for his Tooth Gift, also lending to a connection between Elves and medieval/modern fairies. So the Tooth Fairy can be seen as one of Ing's servants, from a Heathen point of view (but of course doesn't have to be, since she's been able to survive in culture just fine in secular contexts.)

Second: I absolutely agree. I hate that modern society's intellectual elitism teaches us to devalue and ridicule old stories and various folk figures. Besides, Santa is real. Sure, parents/guardians are the ones (usually) giving the presents to children, but in doing so, are Santa. Just like he said in the movie: "You put on the suit, you're the big guy." That's good enough for me.

Third: I actually think there is still merit to the lesson being taught here: be good and you get rewarded. Now, there's definitely problems with the form of this lesson that teaches being good and the universe will provide that reward because karma/God/evil-never-wins/etc., however it's not the universe giving the presents, or the money, or the Easter Basket. It's the recipient's kin. If the lesson here can be thought of as "be good and you will have happy, reciprocal relationships with your kith and kin", I think that's much better. It's still not perfect, of course, because there's still only so much that can be expected, and not every family or community actually will reward good behavior.

perhaps much more than I should

Since when has there been a standard for how much we "should" love something like fantasy?

 

[Koldo]

All storytelling requires "lying," and I happily partake in it. If while we are telling a fantastic tale, we constantly tell the audience "now remember, this didn't literally happen!" it blunts the emotional resonance of the tale. To fully feel and experience the story, a good bard gets the listener to set aside their conventional perspective on reality and journey into another world. In order for stories to live and breathe as they should, we need to take them seriously, or understand them as real. Children in Western cultures do this much better than adults as a general rule, because they haven't been conditioned to draw strong boundaries between the apparent world and the otherworlds.

You don't have to get to that point.
While I watch a Batman movie, while I read Harry Potter, while I role-play a warrior, I don't have to be told that.
The way those experiences are ( or rather, were ) presented to me was remarkably different from 'Santa Claus'.

I don't need to be deceived to embark in fantasy. Nor children do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The lives of children are full of stories - wonderful, magical stories that most of us have fond memories of that bring smiles to our faces.

Something happens, though, as most transition to adulthood. We are taught to devalue the old stories, largely because they are not "literally" true, and then set them aside. Sometimes, we denigrate ourselves for believing in these stories, telling ourselves that we were stupid and that now we are wise. Sometimes, we denigrate our caretakers for telling us these stories, calling them dishonest liars and feeling resentful. All the while, we often don't notice that we've simply replaced old stories with new ones, and that the new ones are still "just" stories.

But I digress. I'm making this thread because some thoughts came out in responding to another one around the forums, but it didn't feel like the right place for it. Instead I'm posting up what I wrote in that thread up here:

I never stopped "believing in" the Tooth Fairy. I never stopped "believing in" Santa either. They are fascinating tales that express important cultural values and relationships.

The legend of the Tooth Fairy helps blunt the pain and trauma of loosing one's teeth. For many children, this is both scary and painful. The Tooth Fairy provides recompense for suffering, and transforms the experience into something magical. We could do with a little more magic and imagination in our culture, I think; it is certainly more pleasurable than the ho-hum scrooge who wishes to disenchant the world and have us believe we are cogs in a meaningless machine. May this legend carry on and continue to inspire and bring meaning to our lives.

Same deal with the legend of Santa Claus. There are many lessons that can be learned by examining this mythos. Many like that the tale reinforces the notion that good things come to those who do good. This is something of a lie, but it is a good lie to believe given the alternative stories we could tell to the young. It isn't very inspiring to tell the story of "it doesn't matter what you do, $#@% happens and you don't have much control over your life." So we tell the story of "if you are on good behavior this year, gifts will come your way." I like that, don't you? Another great thing the tales of Santa do is help children learn to articulate their own values. Those letters mailed to Santa? They are children learning how to express what they want in life, which is an important skill for all of us to learn. What other lessons from this tale can you find?
​

What are your thoughts?

My first thought is that you don't believe in the Tooth Fairy. The fact that you felt the need to put the term in quotes suggests you realized that using the term in the sense you're using it without some sort of qualifier would have led to confusion because nobody else would ve using the term "believe in" the way you were.

"This concept, even if not literally true, expresses an idea I find meaningful" does not necessarily imply "I believe in this concept."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

All storytelling requires "lying," and I happily partake in it. If while we are telling a fantastic tale, we constantly tell the audience "now remember, this didn't literally happen!" it blunts the emotional resonance of the tale. To fully feel and experience the story, a good bard gets the listener to set aside their conventional perspective on reality and journey into another world. In order for stories to live and breathe as they should, we need to take them seriously, or understand them as real. Children in Western cultures do this much better than adults as a general rule, because they haven't been conditioned to draw strong boundaries between the apparent world and the otherworlds.

You're cconflating suspension of disbelief with deception. They aren't the same thing.

 

[Quintessence]

My first thought is that you don't believe in the Tooth Fairy. The fact that you felt the need to put the term in quotes suggests ...

Alternatively, you could ask the speaker for clarification regarding why a term was put in quotes. But since you didn't ask, I'll tell you anyway. As I said, that entire section was originally composed in response to something in a different thread. I put that term in quotes to reference the chosen words of someone else, where in that same thread, I asked for clarification what the person meant by "believe in" because that can mean many different things.

"This concept, even if not literally true, expresses an idea I find meaningful" does not necessarily imply "I believe in this concept."

I disagree. But discussing the problems with the phrase "believe in" should be its own thread, and one I thought about posting a few years back, but never got around to.

You're cconflating suspension of disbelief with deception. They aren't the same thing.

Not really what I was getting at, but whatever you want to think.

 

[Demonslayer]

Every kid?

Oh whoops I probably should have said Spoiler Alert!

 

[Demonslayer]

Mythological literalism represents what is considered an early stage of spiritual development - one that some people never move past - whereas seeing non-literal meaning and connection is a later stage. What I don't like about this model is the implied heirarchy - that mythological literalism is somehow more "primitive" than relational thinking. Based on the rest of your comments, you might not have a problem with this implied value assessment of the "lower" levels being worse than the "upper" levels, though.

Yes, correct observation. I do indeed think mythological literalism is "lower" or "more primitive" than metaphorical or figurative "belief" that folks have who understand the stories of the holy books as allegory. I think graduating away from literal belief should be a natural part of human cognitive development. There are studies that have shown many negative traits associated with rigid, literal belief in a watchful overlord. These are things like difficulty properly associating cause and effect, over reliance on authority figures to guide personal actions, and the tendency to engage in 'magical thinking' far beyond childhood when we are expected to think that way. I see literal belief as stunted cognitive growth...which sadly isn't necessarily the fault of the person.

Look, my mother is a biblical literalist so I'm not here trying to smear literal believers. I just find it sad and weird to grow up and still think there really was a giant Zoo-Boat with all the animals waltzing on calmly, two by two. Then I read things like one out of every four Americans believe God affects the outcome of sporting events, and I'm very sorry to anyone I offend but I think that's just plain, old fashioned stupid.

The Big Guy in the sky plays a divine role in deciding which team wins a sporting event, according to some 25% of Americans polled in a new survey. With the Super Bowl just over a week away, 26% of U.S. citizens and 27% of sports fans say God has a big hand in determining the victors of sporting events, according to a recent survey by the Public Religion Research Institute and Religion News Service.

https://valerietarico.com/2014/10/31/psychological-harms-of-christianity/

 

[ThirtyThree]

My mother went out of her way to keep me believing in Santa. She even attached bells to fishing line in the attic, and used a tape recorder. She also had a number she would call every year, with a distant family member pretending to be the big guy. Eventually, around age eleven or slightly earlier, I uncovered the conspiracy. Her excuse was she wanted me to believe for as long as I could. I was disgusted at the time with the lie.

 

[Demonslayer]

My mother went out of her way to keep me believing in Santa. She even attached bells to fishing line in the attic, and used a tape recorder. She also had a number she would call every year, with a distant family member pretending to be the big guy. Eventually, around age eleven or slightly earlier, I uncovered the conspiracy. Her excuse was she wanted me to believe for as long as I could.

My parents did pretty much the same thing. Maybe not quite so elaborate but similar stuff.

I was disgusted at the time with the lie.

Were you? I didn't care...maybe I didn't think about it enough at the time. I knew Santa wasn't real long before I confronted my parents with it though, so I think was just relieved not to have to go around pretending anymore.

The important part with Santa is, eventually parents come clean and admit the truth. This should happen with God O Claus too, IMO.

 

[Quintessence]

Not sure I want to open this bag of chips, but it's worth noting that "the truth" is... well... what's that? All human tellings of "the truth" are maps of territory - ways that limited human minds process and understand experiences. That Western culture stuffs things like the Tooth Fairy into a "not real" category is map of territory... as is what that word "real" is taken to mean. Ontological perspectives tend to be taken for granted, for better or for worse. We get cultured into a particular way of thinking about "reality" and for the most part, just accept it. Children putting things like the Tooth Fairy into the "not real" box is part of that culturing, and it's something that doesn't have to happen. It's interesting to look at what people put in their "real" and "not real" boxes - often it seems very arbitrary to me as someone who doesn't even have a "not real" box.

 

[Demonslayer]

Children putting things like the Tooth Fairy into the "not real" box is part of that culturing, and it's something that doesn't have to happen.

No? So would you encourage your kid to go Junior High School and tell the other 14 year olds he still believes in the tooth fairy? You're setting that kid up for a life of atomic wedgies.

It's OK to draw a line between real and not real. Human beings have wonderful imaginations. Because of our imaginations we have Chewbacca, Charlie Brown, the Muppets and Game of Thrones. We don't have to accept everything we imagine as real, in fact it minimizes the power of our imagination if we do so. That fact that we can imagine things that are not real is amazing. If everything is real than we have no imagination.

often it seems very arbitrary to me as someone who doesn't even have a "not real" box.

What does this even mean? You think Chewbacca is as real as, say, Barack Obama?

 

[Quintessence]

No? So would you encourage your kid to go Junior High School and tell the other 14 year olds he still believes in the tooth fairy?

This hypothetical scenario will never be applicable to my life.

You're setting that kid up for a life of atomic wedgies.

Even if pluralism wasn't a central value of mine, I find the rationalization of bullying here completely unacceptable. This is basically saying that anyone who isn't a normie should abandon their ways and join the borg collective. No thanks.

It's OK to draw a line between real and not real.

Not saying it isn't. It's just not something I find useful, so I draw no such lines. But I really don't want to make this thread about that, so I'll leave this there and not comment further.

 

[Demonslayer]

This hypothetical scenario will never be applicable to my life.

You can address hypotheticals to advance discussions you know. Do you think it would be responsible to send a 14 year old to school with the idea that the Tooth Fairy was real?

Even if pluralism wasn't a central value of mine, I find the rationalization of bullying here completely unacceptable. This is basically saying that anyone who isn't a normie should abandon their ways and join the borg collective. No thanks.

That's a little dramatic. The "atomic wedgie" was a joke. The alienation a child would be subject to if they try to engage in modern society with bizarre ideas is very real. No one is saying you have to be a "normie." What I'm saying is it's not acceptable for grown people to have, say, an imaginary friend in the closet. It suggests poor mental health and it's going to lead to alienation.

Maybe that's no big deal to someone, in which case they are free to believe and project whatever wacky things they want to. But reality says if you walk around ranting about how you were abducted by aliens, have an invisible friend in your closet who comes out for tea parties, or still place your teeth under a pillow when you're 13 years old expecting a dollar to be delivered by a fairy, you're going to be treated like a tin-foil hatter. That's not me rationalizing bullying, it's telling the truth about life.

It's just not something I find useful, so I draw no such lines.

You draw lines like that every day. You wait for the street crossing light because you understand the speeding cars are real and you'll die if you walk in front of one. You don't guzzle turpentine because you know it's really a real chemical that will really make you die. You don't expect presents to appear on Christmas morning because you recognize Santa isn't real.

You draw lines between reality and non-reality every second of the day, automatically.