Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
so it was a metaphorical ear that was cut off?
Vincent van Gogh could give a very interesting answer to this question.
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i think jesus was confused...or maybe luke and john were
- Thread starter waitasec
- Start date
Vincent van Gogh could give a very interesting answer to this question.
waitasec
Veteran Member
no i don't.
i think this is a fable. it's a legend a myth sort of like king arthur and camelot. about a charismatic person who wanted to lead a revolution against the romans...
each gospel was written for a specific audience at different times each time tailor made for what ever propaganda the jesus movement was selling...
By having a weapon handy and Not using it would show Jesus way was Not of violence but peace.
Peace can be seen by Jesus healing the cut off ear.
Talk about a bad shot. If Jesus way was violence, then don't you think sword fighting practice would have enabled the apostle to be a better aim then just hitting the person's ear ?
-Matthew 26v52; Revelation 13v10
waitasec
Veteran Member
it was used...
an ear was cut off...
what jesus did is not the issue, it's what peter did.
he attempted to stop jesus' arrest which contradicts what jesus said about
his kingdom.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
so, if you already think bible is a myth, and not the inspired word of God, then asking if jesus was confused or others, will not give any result, because you are pre-assuming this is no real event.
but I suggest that one main reason, that you think bible is a myth, is because, it is written in symbolic language. and if these symbolic language is taken literally, it appeares as a myth.
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
That same preposition--"IF"-- in "if it were"(HIS Kingdom---of this world) then HIS servants, of that world, would fight. Peter, while a desciple at this time(and of this world) still was unconverted----therefore, wasn't following directives, but acting on impulse. Sure the record is clear, Peter did cut off the ear the fact has been shown, but not your reasoning.
Jesus had on several ocassions stated this end events. And What has been prophesied will not be altered by man.
It was recorded as a literal/truthful fact which it is. It was told by the four(gospel) witnesses, and/or those who were witnesses to the events and gave their accounts of those things which we surely believe concerning the life, events in HIS Life and death of Jesus.
Jesus in Luke24:45, "opened the Disciples understanding" to all the "scriptures concerning HIM".
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waitasec
Veteran Member
so why was peter with jesus on the mount of olives?
and why would peter say:
33 But he replied, Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.
if he was not converted?
and in luke 22:50 doesn't single out peter either
50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
one of whom?
vs 49 tells you:
49 When Jesus followers saw what was going to happen...
:sorry1: :no: :cigar:
sincerly
Well-Known Member
The mouth speaks adverse things than are believed in the Heart/Mind. Peter acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah and Son Of GOD. But, his actions that very night proved tha he wasn't converted. Peter denied HIS LORD and MASTER Three times as he was told he would do. As well as Jesus told Peter face to face---"when you are converted". Luke22:32
Waitasec, two swords were found, but only one was taken from it's sheath. And to finish that verse(49)---"they said unto HIM, Lord, shall we smite with the sword.?" Again, Jesus gave no order to use the sword(s) And restoring/healing the ear isn't a hostile or defiant act OR an act of resistance.
waitasec
Veteran Member
wow...really? he was willing to kill for his master and he wasn't converted?
they were told to arm themselves with swords in luke...
so if your argument was that it was for protection then whatever jesus was saying about god providing was what....a joke?
there was a resistance though.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
That's correct. Peter at this time wasn't converted, But in his impetuousness, Peter was willing to defend what he hadn't come fully to understand. That "understanding was opened" to Peter and the other disciples. (see Luke 24:44-46)
In the last post it was shown that the disciples at best had found only two swords at this time and there was no time to buy swords even had they wanted to---in the middle of the night. And if they had the second sword, it never left it's sheath. Jesus Gave no order to use the sword at this time. There was no resistence but Jesus. The trial and crucifixion was why Jesus came and as HE said must be fulfilled/completed as prophesied.
No! What Jesus said wasn't a joke. The Time for the fulfillment of the scriptural prophecies had arrived and Jesus was doing just that. Sorry you are unable to see the truth of the scriptures.(BTW, I've never said Jesus wanted any "protection". But, had HE needed the 20 legions of Angels---be assured that they would have appeared.)
Waitasec, NOT by Jesus nor at HIS command. The "confusion" is still by you because they will never fit into your twisted spinning of them. The Gospels are clear.
waitasec
Veteran Member
we are not talking about jesus actions or commands. we are talking about the actions of his servants...the action jesus said would occur had his kingdom were not a heavenly kingdom...the prevention of his arrest.
Weren't ALL of Jesus' 12 apostles baptized followers of Jesus which meant Peter was a converted follower of Christ.
In the gospel, Peter was impetuous, but that did not make him unconverted.
Luke [22v49] they ask Jesus shall we smite with the sword?
[Then Peter impetuously acts]
Verse 51 is where Jesus answers to stop or let it go as far as this.
[Matt 26vs47-56; Mark 14vs43-52; Luke 22vs47-53; John 17v12; 18vs3-12]
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
Waitasec, NOT by Jesus nor at HIS command. The "confusion" is still by you because they will never fit into your twisted spinning of them. The Gospels are clear.[/quote
Waitasec, What kind of "double-talk" is your statement above the high-lighted red then the blue?????
There is a plain unmistaken declaration by Jesus to Pilate that Jesus' Kingdom is NOT of this world and then a qualifying "IF" it were HIS servants would fight.
One blow by an impetuous disciple doesn't qualify as sustained resistence. AND PETER WAS TOLD TO PUT UP HIS SWORD. Followed by Jesus healing /restoring the ear.
There is No misunderstanding by Pilate that had Jesus's Kingdom been "of this world " and HIS servants been called on to fight" that HE would not been delivered as HE said HE would be. and to the next understanding by Pilate was the a truth which put a greater fear in Pilate---The Jewish leaders revealed that the reason they wanted Jesus crucified was "because he made himself the Son of GOD". The next dialogue is revealing. John19:9-11, " And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. "
Pilate understood through the "charges and interrogation" that which the Jewish Leaders and population had rejected----THE MISSION OF JESUS. The fulfilling of the scriptures.
Waitasec, NOT by Jesus nor at HIS command. The "confusion" is still by you because they will never fit into your twisted spinning of them. The Gospels are clear.[/quoteWaitasec, What kind of "double-talk" is your statement above the high-lighted red then the blue?????
There is a plain unmistaken declaration by Jesus to Pilate that Jesus' Kingdom is NOT of this world and then a qualifying "IF" it were HIS servants would fight.
One blow by an impetuous disciple doesn't qualify as sustained resistence. AND PETER WAS TOLD TO PUT UP HIS SWORD. Followed by Jesus healing /restoring the ear.
There is No misunderstanding by Pilate that had Jesus's Kingdom been "of this world " and HIS servants been called on to fight" that HE would not been delivered as HE said HE would be. and to the next understanding by Pilate was the a truth which put a greater fear in Pilate---The Jewish leaders revealed that the reason they wanted Jesus crucified was "because he made himself the Son of GOD". The next dialogue is revealing. John19:9-11, " And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. "
Pilate understood through the "charges and interrogation" that which the Jewish Leaders and population had rejected----THE MISSION OF JESUS. The fulfilling of the scriptures.
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Yes, by John the Baptist, Jesus was the one who stated Peter was unconverted. See Luke 22:31-34, "But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."
Those are the verses being questioned/debated/discussed. We seem to be of the same understanding.
waitasec
Veteran Member
there is no double talk...
jesus said if his kingdom was of this world there would be an attempt to prevent his arrest... and that is what happened.
“My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
did his servants try to prevent his arrest? :yes:
and in doing so was an ear chopped off? :yes:
they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?”
51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!”
more means there was an attempt by his servants to prevent his arrest...
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Wasn't Jesus conversing with Pilate concerning Jesus being a king on this earth ? :yes: Didn't Jesus say, “My kingdom is not of this world (There are no servants in this world from THAT KINGDOM). If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”:yes: And we saw in Matt.26:53-54 that the "servants" Jesus would obtain to prevent an arrest """"IF that "kingdom was of this world the "servants"would be Angels.:yes: notice: "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? "
With the healing of the ear, the disciples scattered.(as prophesied.) So much for your "prevention".
At this time, Jesus didn't consider the Disciples as "servants". John 15:15,"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jesus was speaking to those who came out to arrest HIM. "allow"/"permit" Peter's impetuousness thus far. That His appointment with crucifixion would fulfill Scripture. And so it did.:yes: and the disciples scattered.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
it happened. there was a fight.
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, ...
emphasis mine
i thought you said there were no servants in that world..
interesting number, why 12 legions...? strange. (i digress)
think about what you are saying for a second...
why would the servants of his unearthly kingdom fight for a earthly kingdom?
jesus is making a case that if his kingdom were an earthly kingdom his earthly servants would fight to prevent his earthly arrest...and that is what happened...unless you consider chopping someone's ear off a friendly gesture
and your argument of them greeting/waiting for the betrayer doesn't fly in light of the swords being drawn...there was tension in the air, a conflict...therefore when jesus himself says:
46 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”
mean's he's trying to avoid a conflict...avoid being arrested...
yet they don't know what is going on when he's being arrested...?
so why did they fight to prevent his arrest?
luke 22
42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” ....
...“Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”
49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.
i'll point out 2 things in luke 22
1st, jesus considers himself to be betrayed, an interesting notion that deserves it's own thread...since the entire reason for jesus becoming god incarnate was to be sacrificed...instead of being the betrayer judas helped achieve the fruition of the edited hebrew prophesy...
so without judas there wouldn't be redemption.
2nd, did jesus want to be arrested? no. did his disciples want him to be arrested? no.
question is why?
When 'thou art converted' [KJV] verse 32 is Not in the Greek Interlinear.
Greek carries the idea of having returned not converted.
Peter is spokesmen for all twelve at John 6v69.
Early in Jesus ministry Jesus calls Peter as Cephas.
- John 1v42; Mark 3 vs13-19, [16]
'Strengthen brothers' [John 21vs15-17] or he was to shepherd them.
Peter is also taking a prominent role after Jesus ascension.
Prior to Pentecost wasn't it Peter who brought up the matter of replacing unfaithful Judas at Acts 1vs 15-26 ?
On Pentecost isn't Peter spokesman for the apostles and Peter makes use of the first key given him by Jesus to unlock the way for the Jews to become kingdom members at Acts 2vs1-41.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
:
Originally Posted by sincerly
Wasn't Jesus conversing with Pilate concerning Jesus being a king on this earth ? Didn't Jesus say, My kingdom is not of this world (There are no servants in this world from THAT KINGDOM). If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.
And we saw in Matt.26:53-54 that the "servants" Jesus would obtain to prevent an arrest """"IF that "kingdom was of this world the "servants"would be Angels.:yes: notice: "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? "
With the healing of the ear, the disciples scattered.(as prophesied.) So much for your "prevention".
it happened. there was a fight.
52 Put your sword back in its place, Jesus said to him, ...There was an impetuous act of one uncommanded blow with a sword when those who came to arrest Jesus fell backwards to the ground when Jesus answered, "I AM he". There was no resistance by Jesus to Avoid that which HE came to do---Die for the sins of mankind upon the cross. Notice Matt.26:2, "Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified."
Peter still had some hard lessons to learn before the night was over. That sword was an instrument in the learning process. The "Kingdom of heaven" was/is not of this world and (2)will not be propagated by the sword/weapons.
waitasec said:emphasis mine
i thought you said there were no servants in that world..
interesting number, why 12 legions...? strange. (i digress)
think about what you are saying for a second...
why would the servants of his unearthly kingdom fight for a earthly kingdom?
jesus is making a case that if his kingdom were an earthly kingdom his earthly servants would fight to prevent his earthly arrest...and that is what happened...unless you consider chopping someone's ear off a friendly gesture
Waitasec, that's right!! you "Thought", but that wasn't what I wrote/said. Look again at that statement above. Those disciples were so indoctrinated by the Jewish Leaders that the Jewish Nation would be restored from Roman Rule that it was again broached at the ascension of Jesus Christ.(Acts1:6) And one of eleven, hardly satisfies "his earthly servants".(50 days after the Resurrection, at pentacost, there were over 100 disciples/followers.) Not the first command has ever been given to "smite with the sword". But continue to believe that which you will.
waitasec said:
What doesn't fly is your concocted senario that Jesus was fleeing from that which HE Came into this world to accomplish...and it transpired on schedule as prophesised.:yes:
waitasec said:
Any confusion was in the erroneous belief that Jesus would restore Israel from Roman oppression/rule.
waitasec said:
Waitasec, that has been answered above and previously.
waitasec said:
Waitasec, There was a real Judas. That Judas betrayed/turned from even professing to love Jesus and believing the message of salvation to covenanting with the Jewish Leaders/Priests to betraying Jesus. A fact.:yes: The Redemption was never in peril.
In HIS human nature, Jesus knew the prophesied suffering that HE would have to endure, and HE did ask to be spared; But In HIS Divine Nature, Jesus never wavered to the mission which HE Came to fulfill and did.:yes:
What the disciples wanted then and any human now is inconsequential. It is still one's Obedience to the WILL OF THE FATHER that counts.
waitasec
Veteran Member
here,
i'll edit the gospel for you...makes life much easier this way when we move goal posts in order to be right
john18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would not fight impetuously to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”