I want to know what people think (Free will VS Determinism)

[bcsmith2846]

May Christians believe that God gave them free will, the free will to sin or to be a faithful believer and follower, but then they also believe that God knows all (including the outcome of their life and the choices they make). Do you believe that these two can coexist or does this fact show that all The Bible isn't fact.

Before you leave replies of a nature that isn't what I'm looking for let me clear a few things up.

1) I don't believe in The Bible, I see it as a story book to keep ill behaving children in line and entertained

2) If I did believe in the bible i wouldn't take the literal meaning of it as most Christans do so ignorantly.

3) I posted this to see what people on a broader scale believe (I am from a small republican, Baptist/Methodist town) so please don't attack me publicly if you feel you must impose something upon me you can email me.

 

[Wandered Off]

It's hard to reconcile the two concepts, IMO. http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...would-foreknowledge-contradict-free-will.html

 

[Riverwolf]

3) I posted this to see what people on a broader scale believe (I am from a small republican, Baptist/Methodist town) so please don't attack me publicly if you feel you must impose something upon me you can email me.

Don't worry, that's forbidden here. :yes:

 

[Ringer]

I think you'll find that most books that deal with these concepts will be 1,000 pages long and in the end they'll come to the conclusion that free will and determinism are both taught in the Bible. I'd like to think that it's relative free will and we really don't have complete free will in our lives, per se. I think for most that believe in God also believe that He has our lives already set in place and nothing we do comes as a surprise. You'll find scripture in the Bible that supports this. On the other hand, we also have enough free will to make our own choices. Now, do those who believe in God really believe that He doesn't know what choice we will make? Whether we make great decisions (in a godly sense) or poor decisions, either way, it ultimately adheres to the grander scheme of things that only God can know. From what I can tell, the two can coexist but I don't think from our vantage point we coalesce the two so that it makes sense.

 

[Storm]

May Christians believe that God gave them free will, the free will to sin or to be a faithful believer and follower, but then they also believe that God knows all (including the outcome of their life and the choices they make). Do you believe that these two can coexist or does this fact show that all The Bible isn't fact.

Before you leave replies of a nature that isn't what I'm looking for let me clear a few things up.

1) I don't believe in The Bible, I see it as a story book to keep ill behaving children in line and entertained

2) If I did believe in the bible i wouldn't take the literal meaning of it as most Christans do so ignorantly.

3) I posted this to see what people on a broader scale believe (I am from a small republican, Baptist/Methodist town) so please don't attack me publicly if you feel you must impose something upon me you can email me.

FIrst off, while I have more respect for the Bible than you seem to, it's not my Holy Book, either. Are you looking for Christian perspectives exclusively?

 

[bcsmith2846]

I think you'll find that most books that deal with these concepts will be 1,000 pages long and in the end they'll come to the conclusion that free will and determinism are both taught in the Bible. I'd like to think that it's relative free will and we really don't have complete free will in our lives, per se. I think for most that believe in God also believe that He has our lives already set in place and nothing we do comes as a surprise. You'll find scripture in the Bible that supports this. On the other hand, we also have enough free will to make our own choices. Now, do those who believe in God really believe that He doesn't know what choice we will make? Whether we make great decisions (in a godly sense) or poor decisions, either way, it ultimately adheres to the grander scheme of things that only God can know. From what I can tell, the two can coexist but I don't think from our vantage point we coalesce the two so that it makes sense.

I'm glad you brought up point of view because I am beginning to see that maybe what the bible meant by free will was that I will give you the illusion of free will so that you will be content in your choices... Also without the illusion of free will or free will in its self our whole legal system would be out of date...

FIrst off, while I have more respect for the Bible than you seem to, it's not my Holy Book, either. Are you looking for Christian perspectives exclusively?

No no not at all what i was looking for are posts from everybody .

 

[Riverwolf]

May Christians believe that God gave them free will, the free will to sin or to be a faithful believer and follower, but then they also believe that God knows all (including the outcome of their life and the choices they make). Do you believe that these two can coexist or does this fact show that all The Bible isn't fact.

As a Neopagan mythologically, I don't believe the mythological aspects of the Bible to be literal; such things are, in my eyes, Mystery. The idea that God is foreknowing is a very mythological view, and I frankly don't believe it. I believe that Yeh'vah, the Lonely Guardian of the Desert and the deity who caused the Santorini eruption that caused the Israelites to leave Egypt, to be (though among the gods the most powerful) as powerless as the rest of the gods and the rest of us with time, and I'd describe his appearant foreknowledge to be more akin to a strategist "seeing" all his opponent's moves in the future. Basically Yeh'vah is the greatest chessmaster of all.

So, yes, free will is a big part of us, and our choices are our own; it's just that if Yeh'vah is watching, he'll know what they are.

 

[Storm]

No no not at all what i was looking for are posts from everybody .

OK, then.

I don't believe that omniscience, which implies foreknowledge, negates free will in and of itself. I DO think that free will is impossible if the Creator is both omniscient AND omnipotent.

As for the Bible, I regard it as one of the great mystical texts. However, that's largely due to its impact on history. As mystical texts go, it's rather confused and ineffective, the result of a disastrous blending of myth, law, and history. The Bible is best regarded, imho, as a journal of a particular community's search for God. Much of it has value, but it should not be regarded as the Word of God.

 

[ChristineES]

I believe in free will because simply that we have choices. If we have choices, then how can there not be free will?

 

[logician]

There is no god, so we are totally free to make our own choices, within the restrictions, of course, of genetics and our environment.

 

[Phasmid]

I don't know what to believe. The only thing I think determinism has going for it, is the fact that you can't disprove it. It's no better than saying, "God did it". Just because something can't be proven false, doesn't mean it's fact.

 

[Lux rationis]

Life is like a card game. We have free will to the extent that we may play the cards in our hand the way that we see fit. However, the game occurs within the framework of a deterministic outset wherein we were dealt a certain hand to begin with and we're not free to change that. Some people are better players than others, but no amount of skill or wisdom can completely overcome the handicap of being dealt a lousy hand. Free will and determinism are in constant interplay.

 

[sputnik323]

I agree with logician except that Im not an atheist. We have a limited amout of free will. We can make choices within the boundaries of our existance. We obviously dont have the freedom to levitate, yet we can make choices within natural laws. The concepts aren't mutually exclusive but both exist. BTW if determinism was all there was, then there would have to be a god, because there would be no free radicals. Everything would have a direct cause, and each cause would go back to the first cause. In philosophy the first cause is called the unmoved mover. Meaning, that somthing would have to exist outside natural causes and therefor would be 'god' ... anyways it is my belief that there aren't many paradoxes, but things outside our understaning, just as light is both a particle and a wave.