I want to know why

[Shadow Wolf]

The same reason everyone else would like to pay less tax I expect. “Oh good, my taxes went up this month.” said nobody ever.

I don’t see what it has to do with fear of anything. What are you talking about there?

Actually, several of the ultra wealthy have petitioned the government to raise their taxes. Also, in ancient Greece, it was the wealthy who was taxed, and they were known for contributing more than what was asked of them. It's not so much of a tax or avoidance of giving more, but, rather, that in America we think greed and hording is good to the point some think of taxes as a form of theft compared to the Greeks who gave because they had no fortune or wealth or power without the existence of the state.

 

[savagewind]

Money is still “stuff” and everyone will work to avoid paying out more money. The core point here is that “rich people” aren’t some alien species or foreign enemy. They’re just normal people who happen to be in different circumstances.

I do not call hoarders of money "normal" people.

Tax is a burden to most people. That’s why decent systems are proportional and (economically) progressive.

OK

 

[HonestJoe]

I do not call hoarders of money "normal" people.

You can call them whatever you like, they won't stop being people. It also strikes me as a little disturbing when groups are being called "not normal people".

 

[savagewind]

You can call them whatever you like, they won't stop being people. It also strikes me as a little disturbing when groups are being called "not normal people".

Hoarders are not a "group". It is more than a little disturbing to me what I see happening to people.

 

[HonestJoe]

Hoarders are not a "group". It is more than a little disturbing to me what I see happening to people.

Two or more individuals is a group, I mean nothing more by the word than that. I'm not objecting to you complaining about what they do (I might even agree with you), only to the dehumanising step of defining anyone as "not normal people".

 

[savagewind]

Two or more individuals is a group, I mean nothing more by the word than that. I'm not objecting to you complaining about what they do (I might even agree with you), only to the dehumanising step of defining anyone as "not normal people".

OK. Have you ever seen the show Hoarding: Buried Alive? Normal? Of course not! Is hoarding money so very different?

 

[sayak83]

.....the ultra rich wish to pay less taxes. What are they afraid of?

Nobody I know wants to pay more taxes. Same with the rich folk. Why would they want to pay more taxes?

 

[HonestJoe]

OK. Have you ever seen the show Hoarding: Buried Alive? Normal?

Appearing on it or choosing to watch it?

Is hoarding money so very different?

Well you’ve subtly shifted from talking about “being rich” and “hoarding money” which I don’t think is the same thing. I don’t see how keeping things with concrete value (including money) is anything like the pathological hoarding of rubbish though. I’ve no doubt there could be a similar pathology regarding hoarding items of value (some collectors can seem in that frame) and I guess that could extend to simply having money but that doesn’t mean everyone who has a lot of money and no great desire to pay lots of tax on it are hoarders.

Imagine if you suddenly inherited millions from some long-lost uncle. Would you magically become one of these evil hoarders, at least until (unless?) you gave away most of the money?

 

[savagewind]

Nobody I know wants to pay more taxes. Same with the rich folk. Why would they want to pay more taxes?

It isn't about that! It is about them wanting to pay less tax. They work the laws so they pay fewer taxes. If they left it alone, they would pay their fair share, but they don't. It seems to me that dollar for dollar the poor pay more than the rich do.

I have no proof of this except for myself, but It is my opinion that most charity minus the big chunks of charity that comes from sane rich people are from poor people. Poor people understand that help is needed much more than rich people do. It just an observation. It might be wrong. But of course, every observation might be wrong, even official ones.

 

[savagewind]

Appearing on it or choosing to watch it?

Well you’ve subtly shifted from talking about “being rich” and “hoarding money” which I don’t think is the same thing. I don’t see how keeping things with concrete value (including money) is anything like the pathological hoarding of rubbish though. I’ve no doubt there could be a similar pathology regarding hoarding items of value (some collectors can seem in that frame) and I guess that could extend to simply having money but that doesn’t mean everyone who has a lot of money and no great desire to pay lots of tax on it are hoarders.

Imagine if you suddenly inherited millions from some long-lost uncle. Would you magically become one of these evil hoarders, at least until (unless?) you gave away most of the money?

Do people think this thread is about being rich? I change my vote on where I think I lie on the smart scale here. I mean, my second vote (because I didn't know what the hell the question really meant).

Yesterday was funnier.

 

[savagewind]

Imagine if you suddenly inherited millions from some long-lost uncle. Would you magically become one of these evil hoarders, at least until (unless?) you gave away most of the money?

I am not actually talking about a few million dollars. That isn't much anymore.
And I am not talking about having money. I am talking about not wanting to pay your fair share and doing works to make not paying legal.

 

[HonestJoe]

And I am not talking about having money. I am talking about not wanting to pay your fair share and doing works to make not paying legal.

Yes, which can apply to anyone, hence my initial point; it isn’t just the “ultra-rich” who want to reduce their tax bills. Someone with a million dollar tax bill would rather pay $500K and someone with a $100 tax bill would rather pay $50. There’s clearly a scale and power imbalance and there is plenty of bad practice out there but your question was about why the “ultra rich” want to pay less tax and my answer remains the same; because they’re human.

 

[savagewind]

Yes, which can apply to anyone, hence my initial point; it isn’t just the “ultra-rich” who want to reduce their tax bills. Someone with a million dollar tax bill would rather pay $500K and someone with a $100 tax bill would rather pay $50. There’s clearly a scale and power imbalance and there is plenty of bad practice out there but your question was about why the “ultra rich” want to pay less tax and my answer remains the same; because they’re human.

I don't agree. Someone with not enough money to take care of the rest of his life, his kid's lives and their kid's lives wants to pay fewer taxes. So what? I would be the same way.

I am talking about the people who have enough money for many generations without even working but they spend time and money making it so that they can legally pay out less to the government which governments help in many ways that they do not.

Sane? LOL No! Not sane.

I am sure I was thinking about the promotion of tax laws that will assist the VERY wealthy to get even wealthier.

I am not against having money and nice things. I want to go to New Zealand. Would I steal from the government to do so? Of course not! I consider myself sane. I do not care what you think I am.

 

[savagewind]

Does anyone still think that a million dollars is much? It isn't.

I was on the poor side. I was never poor. Now, compared to what I was, I am on the rich side. Not rich enough yet to go to New Zealand, but rich enough that I share what I have.

The thread isn't about that.

I have thought that if I got rich (which means having more money than I wanted to live a balanced life of nice things) I would give some back to the government which helped me immensely through some really hard times.

Now, I am talking about people who are opposite of that.

What are they afraid of?

 

[sayak83]

It isn't about that! It is about them wanting to pay less tax. They work the laws so they pay fewer taxes. If they left it alone, they would pay their fair share, but they don't. It seems to me that dollar for dollar the poor pay more than the rich do.

I have no proof of this except for myself, but It is my opinion that most charity minus the big chunks of charity that comes from sane rich people are from poor people. Poor people understand that help is needed much more than rich people do. It just an observation. It might be wrong. But of course, every observation might be wrong, even official ones.

But that is the American dream isn't it? Pursuit of one's own private happiness regardless of cost to others? Individualism etc? Read Ayn Rand.