I was wrong - and that makes me angry.

[RestlessSoul]

That makes sense as an explanation. But I wouldn't put it on the "left" or the "right", I'd put it on the realists and the delusional. Reality has a left leaning bias, but that is not the point.
Delusion is a strong motivator. When you think that your saviour can't do wrong, you will vote for him, no matter what. When you are a realist, you see the flaws in your party, and sometimes the doubt will make you not vote for them.
I think that is what happened in the US.

I used the word "saviour" deliberately. Trump has that charisma, and many people who were prone to delusions (by believing in saviours in the first place), fell for him. Watch the Trumpists, they have excuses for every fault - or they will simply not answer you, having the faults blanked out of their perception. Contrast that to the realistic view of leftists of Kamala. They do see the flaws, and they deliberate the cons against the pros. That leads to less than the 100% enthusiasm the Trumpists bring to the voting booth.

And that is not specific to right and left. Get a left "saviour" and it will be the other way around.

Well yes, but this is a slightly different argument. What you are talking about here, is people’s willingness to submit to the will of charismatic leaders, regardless of where they are being led, and regardless of the strength or weakness of their arguments.

The mass psychology that causes large numbers of humans, at certain times in history, to worship demagogues, seems to me pathological. So maybe one half of America has genuinely taken leave of it’s senses; that seems probable. But that’s a separate issue from the question, What causes people of strong moral principle, not to engage in the political process directly, thereby leaving the field clear for the demagogues? And the answer may be that “We the People” have so lost faith in their country’s political institutions, parties and processes, that they’ve given up in despair (something similar seems to be happening in France, for example). Which leaves the question, who is going to oppose the demagogues, and how?

 

[Heyo]

But that’s a separate issue from the question, What causes people of strong moral principle, not to engage in the political process directly, thereby leaving the field clear for the demagogues? And the answer may be that “We the People” have so lost faith in their country’s political institutions, parties and processes, that they’ve given up in despair (something similar seems to be happening in France, for example). Which leaves the question, who is going to oppose the demagogues, and how?

I am thinking about that at the moment, and I may make a new OP about it.

Update: I just did. Are We Responsible for Our Inactions?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The LDP in Japan was recently dealt a harsh, and rare, electoral reprisal by the Japanese People..

..but the topic is about the US election and politics.

It's easy to talk about what a Democrat or Republican govt. will do, or the illusion that Trump or Harris
is in "the driving seat" .. but it would seem that US politics in particular, is far more sinister
than that, DESPITE the claim that it is the leading democracy in the world.

From an outsider's perspective, it doesn't look that way. It appears that the west, and its capitalist
foundation, is strangling the voices of reason and morality.
i.e. the real power is not with the electorate - that has become illusion

 

[muhammad_isa]

If voters who stood down had instead voted for
Harris..

Possibly .. but that does not equate to blame on abstainers. There must be a REASON why
they abstained .. are you claiming that the reason is invalid?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the answer may be that “We the People” have so lost faith in their country’s political institutions, parties and processes, that they’ve given up in despair (something similar seems to be happening in France, for example). Which leaves the question, who is going to oppose the demagogues, and how?

Mmm .. it equates to change in the long run .. but in a much more turbulent way.

 

[Revoltingest]

Possibly .. but that does not equate to blame on abstainers. There must be a REASON why
they abstained .. are you claiming that the reason is invalid?

I say only that those who could've voted but
didn't bear some responsibility for the result.
If they don't care, I understand.
But if they dislike the result, then their decision
to stand down was a bad one.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..if they dislike the result, then their decision
to stand down was a bad one.

Not really .. that is assuming that they WANTED Harris to win .. but we assume they didn't.
That doesn't automatically mean they wanted Trump to win..

They left it for others to decide .. and they have.

It is a failure of the Democrats .. or more likely, a failure of political institutions due to corruption.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not really .. that is assuming that they WANTED Harris to win .. but we assume they didn't.
That doesn't automatically mean they wanted Trump to win..

They left it for others to decide .. and they have.

I've nothing to add.
Nothing new or useful, anyway.

 

[Heyo]

or more likely, a failure of political institutions due to corruption.

No disagreement from me. But why now? The corruption went on for decades. They voted for Biden. Did they really think it wouldn't make a difference who was running the show? Wouldn't the chance of less corruption be greater with Harris?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I can't even imagine how they can get away with [gutting civil service] given the result would be catastrophic at some point.

Figure of speech, right? Hyperbole, correct?

Here's the thing: If the Republicans take the House along with the Senate and White House, they will do things that are catastrophic to ordinary citizens but not to them and there will be no guard rails to inhibit them. There will be no cavalry coming to rescue Americans from what MAGA voters have done. Clearly, one of their goals will be to control future elections by removing the remaining safeguards there. Who will stop them? Not Congressional Democrats. Not the three liberals on the Supreme Court. Not the lower courts. Why would we expect there to ever be another free and fair election as opposed to sham elections characteristic of dictators like Putin? What can prevent that? Nothing, in my estimation.

What do the sociopathic uberwealthy want? Whatever it is, who will stop them from taking it? The Constitution and the laws don't enforce themselves. Suppose Trump declares Medicare and Social Security defunct and has everybody working for both fired such that the offices are empty and the lights off. Who is in a position to resist or undo that? Nobody.

Perhaps the implications of what just happened (assuming the Republicans take the House) will come over months and years in waves. It really isn't hard to see what's coming - just the order of events and the timeline. What goes first and how long it takes to implement the Project 2025 agenda, which is probably a watered-down version of what those people really want tempered by what they felt was imprudent to say in writing but which they want.

this attitude assumes that the voter really has a power to shape what their govt. does. This is an illusion.

It wasn't an illusion 2016, 2020, or 2024. The American electorate had the power to turn over its government to either of two very different people that would have taken America in very different directions.

As I indicated above, if the Republicans take the House, free and fair elections become a thing of the past if that is their will, and if you don't know that it is, you aren't paying attention or aren't processing evidence well. These people have told us who they are.

Perhaps its time to take to the hills?

That's a big question on a lot of Americans' minds. Not everybody wants to leave, and not everybody who wants to leave can whether for financial, health, family or other reasons like fear of emigration or a church congregation that they would never leave.

But what of those who are not afraid to emigrate and who have the option? What's the benefit of relocating? What's the harm of living right where you do even in a country evolving into an ever more fascistic state?

I think that if I still lived in the States, it would be time to stop expressing my opinions of Trump and MAGA, and I might already be at risk for prior opinions posted to the Internet. I wouldn't trust my neighbors, as fully half on average would be MAGA, and they are enemies of liberals, not just of a different opinion.

What I love about my move to Mexico fifteen years ago isn't just that we no longer live what appears to be an increasingly threatening life that is becoming a worse value (taxes will fail to fall but what those funds used to buy like roads and schools will diverted to those in power and infrastructure allowed to decay again). There were benefits beyond that that would keep it my home even if America fixes its problems, especially, the better weather, happier people, lower prices, and much better bank interest.

Spoiler: digression: our Mexican life

This was our dinner last night. The wife had the chicken Florentine, and I had the shrimp in wine sauce. As you can read, this was accompanied by a small baked potato, sauteed carrot and zucchini spears, corn souffle (not shuffle; also, steak, not stake, but hey, English is a second language here), and a slice of pumpkin pie each for 400 pesos total (2x1 is how they write two for the price of one here), or about $20 USD.

There was music later in the evening, but we were done and gone by 6PM. With tip, we were out of there for $25 USD (we drank water). The meals were excellent. We each took home over half and will have a second meal today. I see no reason to return to $75+ dinners in the States even if the MAGA problem went away:

Another benefit of being here is that the other expats are virtually all liberal like we are. MAGA living in America generally fear and loathe Mexico and Mexicans, so the MAGA we get here are principally the ones who can't afford living in the States, and boy are they unhappy. They quickly become relatively silent on social media once they realize how much they are disliked and how badly they are outnumbered by liberal expats, so that's a plus and adds to the paradisiacal nature of this life.

Perry of Perry's Pizza was one such vocal MAGA, although he had a vocal conservative before there was a MAGA. The last time we visited his place in about 2017, he was sitting at the next table talking with other conservatives spewing MAGA talking points and praising Trump audibly.

As I said, Perry had been a conservative restauranteur here since before we arrived and was as outspoken all along as he was when we heard him last (we had patronized his restaurant for years), but it was in the Trump era that he became MAGA. Although his food was popular and got rave reviews up until it closed in 2018, people began taking offense and stopped going to Perry's as did we. He's out of business now and wherever he is and whatever he's doing, it's not in our area:

A benefit of expatriating is that had we not, we would definitely be patronizing the businesses of MAGAs without realizing it, as with any franchise or chain restaurant, supermarket, or mall outlet store. We prefer to patronize people lie Hector, who runs Manix alluded to above (called Manix II now following a recent relocation) above. Win-win.

Meet Hector:

Manix II sets opening date
Hector España Ramos

 

[F1fan]

Figure of speech, right? Hyperbole, correct?

Here's the thing: If the Republicans take the House along with the Senate and White House, they will do things that are catastrophic to ordinary citizens but not to them and there will be no guard rails to inhibit them. There will be no cavalry coming to rescue Americans from what MAGA voters have done. Clearly, one of their goals will be to control future elections by removing the remaining safeguards there. Who will stop them? Not Congressional Democrats. Not the three liberals on the Supreme Court. Not the lower courts. Why would we expect there to ever be another free and fair election as opposed to sham elections characteristic of dictators like Putin? What can prevent that? Nothing, in my estimation.

What do the sociopathic uberwealthy want? Whatever it is, who will stop them from taking it? The Constitution and the laws don't enforce themselves. Suppose Trump declares Medicare and Social Security defunct and has everybody working for both fired such that the offices are empty and the lights off. Who is in a position to resist or undo that? Nobody.

MAGAs have a two year window to get their damage done. They will have blue states interfering with their plans. There will be lower courts not allowing certain policies.

The real heroes will be the Pence/McCain types who will do their duty and not cooperate. At least for awhile until MAGA bullies impose enough threats and intimidation. The tariffs will do natural damage to the economy and the voters will feel it. No amount of disinformation will offset that. The deportations will be immoral and it will be noticed. The further economic damage will just accumulate to more dissatisfaction.

We need to hope that MAGAs are successful enough to **** off society but not so competent that they do permanent damage to the government.

Retailers are already worried. My advice to everyone is save your money. If a recession happens it could take years to recover.

 

[PureX]

Excuse my picking one part of a very long (and interesting) post.

I would take it back a step further. I was around in the 1970s in England when the Unions (that I support in principle) were doing their best to ruin the economy. That may not have been how the majority saw it, but a minority wanted to institute communism in place of the fairly mild socialism that existed then. They understood a truism, that communism has never taken over a country where the majority of the people felt reasonably comfortable in their lives. So they attempted to change that. It didn't happen, but we got Thatcherism instead.

It seem that has happened in the US without a deliberate attempt to bring it about, and so, desperate people have been fertile ground for the planting of memes about scapegoats that are the "cause of all their problems". Jews for the Nazis, immigrants, LGBTQ folks and the "woke" left today.

I don't think there is lot of doubt about who caused this. The "billionaires" who have been working to overthrow FDR's "socialism" ever since it started. It puzzles me that they would do this. Oh, I see that they want to get richer and richer, but why? Even from a totally selfish point of view, it doesn't work for them long term. They were fine being simply very rich (as opposed to obscenely rich) and while the middle class had a comfortable life nobody cared much about it. They then made the mistake that the French aristocracy made, who set no limits on their avarice, and eventually lost their heads literally as well as metaphorically. Does our "aristocracy" not see the guillotines waiting in the future?

These billionaires and despots are almost all males. They are clever, but they are still just dumb animals in the sense that they are being driven by their dumb animal natures to bed all the females, subjugate all the other males, and own and control everything and everyone for as long as possible (until a bigger, faster, stronger, more aggressive male takes them out). This is who they are. It is their fundamental nature. And they will never be satiated. They will never have enough wealth, power, or control over the world they live in. So they will not stop of their own accord. They have to BE STOPPED by a force greater than their own bottomless desire to own and dominate all.

The question that has always puzzled me is why so many of the rest of us will not recognize this, and act to put a stop to it. And instead treat it as if it were "normal" and even justifiable behavior. Apparently admiration for and submission to these hyper-alpha males is also built into the human genome. I don't know. It's certainly not built into mine!

 

[Audie]

I did not even wait up for the count.
I was pretty certain that TRUMP would win.
Though It was certainly not the result that I wanted.
But there is almost no limit to people's ignorance and stupidity.
And America does everything bigger and to excess compared to every one else.
And they sure did not disappoint.

But there is a limit.*

Harris lost.

*maybe not in Canada.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

But there is a limit.*

Harris lost.

*maybe not in Canada.

Why do you suppose there is a limit to people's ignorance and stupidity.
Who won or lost has nothing to do with it.
Ignorance and stupidity often back the winning side.
It is an almost given.

However Trump attracts them like flies to a turd.

 

[PureX]

Why do you suppose there is a limit to people's ignorance and stupidity.
Who won or lost has nothing to do with it.
Ignorance and stupidity often back the winning side.
It is an almost given.

However Trump attracts them like flies to a turd.

When Trump openly expresses his own ignorance, selfishness, and stupidity, he lends imaginary credibility to the ignorance, selfishness, and stupidity of theirs. And so they feel emboldened to express it, outwardly, as well. They actually become proud of it, and wave it around like a clan flag, for all to see. And the more disgust it draws from others, the more proud of it they are.

It's the biblical definition of "perversity". A kind of mental and spiritual sickness that drives people to become what they would otherwise loathe, just out of spite. And even as it destroys them.

 

[Alien826]

This was our dinner last night. The wife had the chicken Florentine, and I had the shrimp in wine sauce. As you can read, this was accompanied by a small baked potato, sauteed carrot and zucchini spears, corn souffle (not shuffle; also, steak, not stake, but hey, English is a second language here), and a slice of pumpkin pie each for 400 pesos total (2x1 is how they write two for the price of one here), or about $20 USD.

Sounds excellent. A couple of questions if you don't mind.

We tend to think of drug cartels and violence when we think of Mexico. Comments?

How about visas and all that stuff?

Is this an area specially set up for ex-pats? Is help available for would-be immigrants?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Wouldn't the chance of less corruption be greater with Harris?

I don't know .. not necessarily.

 

[Heyo]

The question that has always puzzled me is why so many of the rest of us will not recognize this, and act to put a stop to it.

It's because many dream of becoming the alpha themselves. The betas follow the alpha and wait for an opportunity to take their place. That's why I predicted that Vance will dethrone Trump at the first opportunity.
Independent people are rare. Life is easier in a tribe.
And don't take RF as an example. We are a self-selected bunch of nerds. You'll never find so many free thinkers in RL.

 

[muhammad_isa]

As I indicated above, if the Republicans take the House, free and fair elections become a thing of the past if that is their will, and if you don't know that it is, you aren't paying attention or aren't processing evidence well. These people have told us who they are..

The result of that is likely to be civil war .. but the Democrats couldn't necessarily stop that, in any case
The financial system is wrong, despite your support of it. That is why we see what we see right now.

 

[Audie]

Why do you suppose there is a limit to people's ignorance and stupidity.
Who won or lost has nothing to do with it.
Ignorance and stupidity often back the winning side.
It is an almost given.

However Trump attracts them like flies to a turd.

ive an old uncle late of the red guard.

Both sides in USA sound like him.
So we don’t get him going.

You guys will be ok,there’s a
billion of us to pick up the pieces.