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I watch this atheist movie and the theme behind it was "Luck"

Is Luck the main determinant for one's life

  • Luck

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • God

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 13 81.3%

  • Total voters
    16
When I say randomness, it is referring to a fair event. Randomness means a fair event.

That's an atypical definition of randomness.

Randomness has no rules nor requirement to be fair. It just relates to occurrences outwith your control.

It isn't as if someone rigged an event to make the outcome one way. We just had that. The Democrats in the US want to change the election rules so the straight majority wins now.

This is an example of people overreacting to randomness. 4 years ago Trump was the one whining about the EC being undemocratic and this time he won because of it.

People overreact to the most recent random event and want to change to prevent it happening again without thinking that next time the randomness might work in their favour in exactly the same situation.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I recently enjoyed an atheist movie. It's not really a religious movie. However, the director sounds like he is one or has become one from his comments. See his quote below. I can tell you it's about a former tennis pro who thinks luck is the supreme determinant in life. In other words, from an atheist pov, if there is no God, then it's "luck" which is the supreme determinant for one's life. It's a neo-noir movie.

The video got good reviews and is from 2005. The first hour sets up the characters and circumstances. The last hour takes us into some twists and turns.

It's called Match Point.

"One reason for the fascination of Woody Allen's "Match Point" is that each and every character is rotten. This is a thriller not about good versus evil, but about various species of evil engaged in a struggle for survival of the fittest -- or, as the movie makes clear, the luckiest. "I'd rather be lucky than good," Chris, the tennis pro from Ireland, tells us as the movie opens, and we see a tennis ball striking the net - it is pure luck which side it falls on. Chris' own good fortune depends on just such a lucky toss of a coin." - Roger Ebert

Match Point Movie Review & Film Summary (2006) | Roger Ebert

“To you, I'm an atheist.
To God, I'm the loyal opposition.”
Woody Allen
I watched this non-sports movie: it was a cheesy romantic comedy. Why are all non-sports people into chick flicks? Why do they like such sappy stuff?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I'm talking not about being superstitious which most gamblers are. I'm talking about the one-in-a-million type of occurrence. For example, we have a fair coin with a head and a tail on each side. I want 100 consecutive heads to occur. The coin is tossed billions of times and the 100 consecutive heads occurs. We have randomness as the coin's been examined and determined to be fair. It would take supreme luck for 100 consecutive heads to occur.

No coin is completely balanced. You have confused a coin having two side with balance of construction and distribution of material.

We have many musicians for example, but few become celebrities and rock stars. Or we have hundreds of thousands of people who want to become professional sports stars. Only a few reach the top. Is it just talent that helped them reach the pinnacle? No. Luck played a part.

No that is called capitalism and talent. Someone of talent can put themselves forward by taking part in music organizations, submitting recordings, performing at various venues, etc. They can do a number of things to gain notice which can further their career. That is not lucky, that is called making an effort.

The same applies to sports. People with talent are noticed as they take part within organizations that scouts visit. These scouts represent schools or sports organizations which are part of the next step to a professional career. Those with talent, not to be confused with the ability to play, are noticed and offered opportunities.

You have merely called intricacies you do not know about nor understand luck.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
"There may be multiple outcomes, but the results of the outcome are fair, i.e. the rules were stated and written in advance. "

That is not what that means. A fair event in terms of probability means all possible outcomes have an equal chance of happening. A fair die roll means all sides have an equal probability of being rolled. It is this equal probability that makes the event random, as such there are no naturally occurring "fair events". There are no "fair events" in your life, as there will always be a varying degree of probability on the possible outcomes.

That seems very limiting if you ask me. It's what I learned in mathematics. I agree, math can be applied to life and it's one of the mysteries that we find it in nature. What I was saying was to apply it to life, then we make up rules and conditions so that it is fair. For example, we just had the election for POTUS in the US. For Trump to win would be an example of supreme luck. Clinton was the heavy favorite.

When measuring probability, cherry picking a few examples proves nothing.

That's what I am talking about though. The few examples. We find the *few* examples in all professions. Many other people have similar attributes as them, but only a few were able to climb into the top 1%. You seem to like math, so the normal distribution curve shows there is a top 1%. Can you say those at the top 1% had more of one or two natural attributes than those in the top 5 or 10 percentile%? I don't think so.
 
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Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
That seems very limiting if you ask me. It's what I learned in mathematics. I agree, math can be applied to life and it's one of the mysteries that we find it in nature. What I was saying was to apply it to life, then we make up rules and conditions so that it is fair. For example, we just had the election for POTUS in the US. For Trump to win would be an example of supreme luck. Clinton was the heavy favorite.



That's what I am talking about though. The few examples. We find the *few* examples in all professions. Many other people have similar attributes as them, but only a few were able to climb into the top 1%. You seem to like math, so the normal distribution curve shows there is a top 1%. Can you say those at the top 1% had more of one or two natural attributes than those in the top 5 or 10 percentile%? I don't think so.


"What I was saying was to apply it to life, then we make up rules and conditions so that it is fair. "

Actually what you said was:

When I say randomness, it is referring to a fair event. Randomness means a fair event.

Then you started on about that nonsense of rules. Two completely separate concepts, that you were mistakenly tying to tie to one another on the misinterpretation of the term fair event.

"That's what I am talking about though."

Not at all what I am talking about. Your examples proves nothing. You asked:

Is luck the biggest factor to determine one's life or is there something else?

Is it the biggest. Not does it happen. Does luck happen? Sure but it does not mean it is the biggest factor, and giving a few hypotheticals in no ways proves it is the biggest.

You also seem overly focused on money, as if you believe acquiring money is the purpose of life.

"For Trump to win would be an example of supreme luck. Clinton was the heavy favorite."

Clinton was heavy favored because their math was wrong. It is not like we rolled a die to see who is going to win president; we voted. All those statistical analysis were trying to predict voter behavior, and they failed in doing that.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
... but only when it's good, right? ;)

depends what you mean... all things work for good for those who love God... so all things would be providentially good. If you mean uncomfortable things, in the long run they work for good for the redeemed

Not for everyone... for those who love God by God's grace
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I watched this non-sports movie: it was a cheesy romantic comedy. Why are all non-sports people into chick flicks? Why do they like such sappy stuff?

Huh? Maybe there was romance and sex in the first half, but hardly the second. I'll assume you aren't lucky.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
"What I was saying was to apply it to life, then we make up rules and conditions so that it is fair. "

Actually what you said was:



Then you started on about that nonsense of rules. Two completely separate concepts, that you were mistakenly tying to tie to one another on the misinterpretation of the term fair event.

"That's what I am talking about though."

Not at all what I am talking about. Your examples proves nothing. You asked:



Is it the biggest. Not does it happen. Does luck happen? Sure but it does not mean it is the biggest factor, and giving a few hypotheticals in no ways proves it is the biggest.

You also seem overly focused on money, as if you believe acquiring money is the purpose of life.

"For Trump to win would be an example of supreme luck. Clinton was the heavy favorite."

Clinton was heavy favored because their math was wrong. It is not like we rolled a die to see who is going to win president; we voted. All those statistical analysis were trying to predict voter behavior, and they failed in doing that.

I think you're too narrow with your definitions and do not understand that people make rules for contests and other life events. What you seem to be describing as fair are outcomes with a fixed chance. Life isn't a math problem where we have to argue about what is a fair event. I think I made myself clear on this point. Most people know life has its "random" moments which isn't tied to strict probability. In fact, we bet on outcomes for sports and other events and they're made "fair" by certain rules such as giving odds or point spreads. In other matters such as success, we do not bet on our friends or relatives, but we know who is doing well and who isn't and we wish those we like to do well. If someone's success is fair such as an accountant, then we can plot their work on a distribution curve. This is usually how we are judged at work so we are compared to our peers. What I am saying is take all the accountants that are working at companies and if you compare them, there will be a few that will have exceeded the curve. It isn't just hard work and talent that got these people far. I'm not saying these qualities aren't important or that they do not count, but others may have the same or equivalent qualities. What separates them from the others is their luck. I have to agree with the director Allen on this. Now, luck may have come because of their hard work and all, but it hit them and not the others.

I don't think any of what you said matters. The distribution curve backs up what I am saying.

I didn't use just money, but success, i.e. reaching one's goals. If you want to make happiness or some other quality the purpose of life, then it's another matter. Even then, luck plays a part.

Maybe that one analyst was right about "his" election prediction (determined "after" the election), but the odds were against Trump to win going in. If Trump had won by the narrowest of margins or if Clinton had won, then it would've been another analyst who was right. Going into the election was another story for Trump.

I'll say this. If luck isn't a major factor to you, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether I think it is. What matters is that I hope that I'm the one who has the luck. That's what matters.

I don't know what you consider the difference maker, but I'll go with luck in almost all of the cases ceteris paribus.
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
I think you're too narrow with your definitions and do not understand that people make rules for contests and other life events. What you seem to be describing as fair are outcomes with a fixed chance. Life isn't a math problem where we have to argue about what is a fair event. I think I made myself clear on this point. Most people know life has its "random" moments which isn't tied to strict probability. In fact, we bet on outcomes for sports and other events and they're made "fair" by certain rules such as giving odds or point spreads. In other matters such as success, we do not bet on our friends or relatives, but we know who is doing well and who isn't and we wish those we like to do well. If someone's success is fair such as an accountant, then we can plot their work on a distribution curve. This is usually how we are judged at work so we are compared to our peers. What I am saying is take all the accountants that are working at companies and if you compare them, there will be a few that will have exceeded the curve. It isn't just hard work and talent that got these people far. I'm not saying these qualities aren't important or that they do not count, but others may have the same or equivalent qualities. What separates them from the others is their luck. I have to agree with the director Allen on this. Now, luck may have come because of their hard work and all, but it hit them and not the others.

I don't think any of what you said matters. The distribution curve backs up what I am saying.

I didn't use just money, but success, i.e. reaching one's goals. If you want to make happiness or some other quality the purpose of life, then it's another matter. Even then, luck plays a part.

Maybe that one analyst was right about "his" election prediction (determined "after" the election), but the odds were against Trump to win going in. If Trump had won by the narrowest of margins or if Clinton had won, then it would've been another analyst who was right. Going into the election was another story for Trump.

I'll say this. If luck isn't a major factor to you, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether I think it is. What matters is that I hope that I'm the one who has the luck. That's what matters.

I don't know what you consider the difference maker, but I'll go with luck in almost all of the cases ceteris paribus.

"I think you're too narrow with your definitions and do not understand that people make rules for contests and other life events."

I think you just got jumbled up, and said something that didn't make much sense, and now you are trying to make it sound like you said something else. Sorry for not responding to the rest of your post, but I got bored after your first sentence and stopped reading.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
"I think you're too narrow with your definitions and do not understand that people make rules for contests and other life events."

I think you just got jumbled up, and said something that didn't make much sense, and now you are trying to make it sound like you said something else. Sorry for not responding to the rest of your post, but I got bored after your first sentence and stopped reading.

Please don't take it personally. You are entitled to your opinions. We just don't agree on that one part. And happiness is what leads to success as success doesn't necessarily lead to happiness. Agree?
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
Please don't take it personally. You are entitled to your opinions. We just don't agree on that one part. And happiness is what leads to success as success doesn't necessarily lead to happiness. Agree?

I am not taking it personally; I really just got bored of the conversation. I am only good for so many back and forths on a single issue.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Here is what the Bible says about luck. Mostly from the OT. Basically, God rules over luck, but usually leaves it to randomness. In other words, he could alter an outcome, but doesn't. I think if it's something negative in one's life such as a tornado destroying one's house, then it's God warning you. However, He doesn't provide you with good luck. He provides you with talent, brains, skills, etc. so one can make their own luck, but he doesn't favor one person's luck over another. He leaves it to randomness and nature.

As for chance meetings that affect one's life, such as meeting your future spouse, an old childhood friend, or making a new friend or meeting a stranger whose advice changes your life, I've heard Buddhists attribute it to karma, but isn't that luck, as well? Christians would say God knew this would happen and allowed it.

"What does the Bible say about luck?"

Answer:
The American Heritage Dictionary defines “luck” as follows:

1. The chance happening of fortunate or adverse events. 2. Good fortune or prosperity; success....to gain success or something desirable by chance: “I lucked out in finding that rare book.”

The main question is, do things happen by chance? If they do, then one can speak of someone being lucky or unlucky. But if they do not happen by chance, then it is inappropriate to use those terms. Ecclesiastes 9:11-12 states, “I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all. Moreover, no man knows when his hour will come: As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds are taken in a snare, so men are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them.” Much of what Ecclesiastes shares is from the perspective of a person who looks at life on earth without God, or life “under the sun.” From such a perspective—leaving God out of the picture—there seems to be good luck and bad luck.

A runner in a race may be the swiftest, but because someone in front of him stumbles, he trips over him and falls and does not win the race. How unlucky for him? Or a warrior king may have the strongest army but some “chance” arrow shot up into the air at random by a no-name enemy soldier just happens to pierce his armor in its most vulnerable location (2 Chronicles 18:33) resulting in that king’s death and the loss of the battle. How unlucky for King Ahab? Was it a matter of luck? Reading the whole of 2 Chronicles 18, we find that God had His hand in the matter from the beginning. The soldier who shot the arrow was totally unaware of its trajectory, but God in His sovereignty knew all along it would mean the death of wicked King Ahab.

A similar “chance” occurrence takes place in the book of Ruth. Ruth, a widow who was caring for her widowed mother-in-law, seeks a field to glean grain to provide for them. “So she went out and began to glean in the fields behind the harvesters. As it turned out, she found herself working in a field belonging to Boaz, who was from the clan of Elimelech” (Ruth 2:3). Elimelech had been the husband of her mother-in-law, Naomi, so Boaz was a relative of hers and was generous to Ruth. As Ruth returns home with a great deal more grain than Naomi expected, “her mother-in-law asked her, ‘Where did you glean today? Where did you work? Blessed be the man who took notice of you!’ Then Ruth told her mother-in-law about the one at whose place she had been working. ‘The name of the man I worked with today is Boaz,’ she said. ‘The LORD bless him!’ Naomi said to her daughter-in-law. ‘He has not stopped showing his kindness to the living and the dead.’ She added, ‘That man is our close relative; he is one of our kinsman-redeemers.’" (Ruth 2:19-20). So Naomi did not see it as a “chance” occurrence but as the providence of God, as do others later on (Ruth 4:14).

Proverbs 16:33 states a general principle: “The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.” This refers to the use of casting lots (similar to the tossing of a coin or the rolling of dice) to settle certain judicial cases. The case involving Achan in Joshua 7 is an example in which the principle of Proverbs 16:33 is used to find the guilty party. Proverbs 18:18 states something similar: “Casting the lot settles disputes and keeps strong opponents apart.” Again, the idea is that God’s providence plays the determining role in the results of the casting of lots so that judicial conflicts can be resolved no matter how great the contention. Proverbs 16:33 would indicate that something as random as the rolling of dice or the tossing of a coin is not outside of God’s sovereign control. And, therefore, its results are not merely of chance.

God’s sovereignty involves two aspects. God’s active will or sovereignty would involve something He causes to happen such as the leading of wicked King Ahab into battle (2 Chronicles 18:18-19). Ahab’s death was not merely the result of a randomly shot arrow, but as 2 Chronicles 18 reveals, God actively directed the events that led Ahab into battle and used that randomly shot arrow to accomplish His intended will for Ahab that day.

God’s passive will involves Him allowing, rather than causing, something to happen. Chapter1 of the book of Job illustrates this in what God allowed Satan to do in the life of Job. It is also involved in the evil that God allowed Joseph’s brothers to do to Joseph in order to accomplish a greater good, a good not apparent to Joseph until years later (Genesis 50:20).

Full article here
What does the Bible say about luck?
 
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