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I will harden Pharoahs heart (and punish all of egypt for it)
- Thread starter Spiderman
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Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
What you just said? Is a Failure of Morality: Might DOES NOT make Right.
Moreover? You have just reduced all of humanity to mere PROPERTY.
To be disposed of at a whim, by your god...
That's immoral.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
First the Pharaoh's thought of themselves as a god.
So God harden the heart of Pharaoh, to bring Pharaoh to the realization that he (Pharaoh) is not a god, but only human of flesh and blood.
Secondly, As you said ---> ( What verses point to free will in the Bible)
Can you explain exactly what happen to
Jonah's free will, Seeing Jonah did not want to do things, thereby using his free will, but yet God had Jonah to do things that went against Jonah's free will.
As the story goes in Jonah 1:1-3--"
"Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying"
2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord"
Here we find Jonah by his free will, did not want to do what the Lord wanted Jonah to do, So Jonah flees into Tarshish.
But as the story goes, Jonah eventually does what the Lord wanted, So Jonah goes to Nineveh. But yet it was not what Jonah wanted to do by his free will.
So the question is, What happen to Jonah's free will ?
So the other questions would be, Why did God go about having Jonah to do things, that Jonah didn't want to do, by his free will?
What was God's purpose of all this ?
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The Anointed
Well-Known Member
So you have never read of the Shepherd Kings, who Josephus the historian identifies as the Israelites?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
If he remorses, God forgives and softens his heart. So, he has the choice.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Scriptures also talk about baptizing with fire and water. The fire is not really the real fire. So, maybe lake of fire is also not real fire.Once again, I will Harden Pharaoh's heart does not mean I will harden Pharaoh's heart.
When the Bible speaks of a Lake of Fire, Perhaps fire is symbolic for a lake of passionate love and laughing gas.
After all, the Bible is so famous for meaning something other than what it says.
When a scripture verse sounds Preposterous to you, be like every Christian and find a clever explanation for why it doesn't mean what it says. How lovely!
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You should ask yourself the (perhaps not so) obvious questions.
Why? Why harden, or embolden someone evil, to do evil? And, if you can do these things, why not soften, or discourage this someone from doing evil?
You need to use your critical thinking skills, and stop relying so heavily on apologist, i.e. biased commentary.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You're holding on to an illogical idea. Free will does not exist. Where do you think this remorse would come from? Thin air?
God is the source of righteousness. It doesn't spontaneously arise in a person.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
That is precisely what I have believed all along
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
If to what you say is true, can you explain
What happened in Acts 5:3-10?
3--But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
to what happened in Acts 5:3-10.
If to what you say God forgives.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
If the bible said that God would never destroy or curse mankind then
you can rightly challenge this - we have been cursed and have been
destroyed.
But God doesn't say that. God is a God of peace, but God is also a
God of war.
You don't have to take the biblical accounts as your sole reference -
we have the historic account of the Jews as a ground truth. The
bible says the Jews would remain small in number, a blessing to
the world, they would be scattered because they "didn't know the
time of their visitation" (Messiah) their capital would be "trampled
under the feet of the Gentiles until the Gentile's time is fulfilled",
they would be called out of nations that were their graves, they
would return to their homeland, take it back with the sword and
rebuild it.
Some brutal and harsh prophecy here. It is still being fulfilled in our
age. So I believe the biblical accounts where God was the destroyer.
I can see it before me even in this day.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
These believers in their heart had promised to give the money completely to the apostles for the advancement of the Religion of Christ, but when they sold it, they kept part of the Money, and only gave part of the money to Peter. So, he was tempted by his own selfishness. He was not able to sacrifice completely. Had he truly believed, he would have sacrificed. As a punishment, God caused him to die. And this death, in my view was a spiritual death, not a physical death, though the scriptures appear to be speaking of a physical death and burying. We would have to think, about spiritual lesson.
Dragonslayer
Member
The problem is, you don't know God. Someone has told you about Him and described Him as being unfair and bad, this is very common as most people hate God.
Everyone hates God until He saves them, then He reveals the truth to them and everything makes perfect sense and we realize that God is perfect love, perfect justice, perfect righteousness and everything He does is absolutely perfect.
The problem arises when fallen, wicked, sinful men attempt to pass judgement on God. Man is totally depraved and desperately wicked, so he is not in a position to judge anything God does. The Bible says Gods ways are infinitely higher than man's ways, there is no comparison so it's not possible for a fallen, wicked, totally depraved, evil and sinful man to judge anything God does.
Remember God wiped out the whole world bar 8 people with a flood, He is just about to do it again with fire and He is well within His rights to do it. God doesn't tolerate fallen sinful people, He has appointed a time to destroy them and cast them all into hell. He will save millions, He has saved billions throughout the ages and He will save many more but all of those He hasn't chosen to save are damned.
The Bible is very clear and simple, it outlines human history from the beginning to the end, God has revealed His grand plan so everyone is without excuse. He sent His Son to come and suffer and die to pay for the sins of the believers, those who don't believe will pay for their sins in hell.
Jesus said, "I will save all of those who believe in me". So all a person needs to do is trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins and they are guaranteed eternal paradise, I can't believe so many refuse to take His free offer of paradise and they choose to spend eternity in hell instead.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here in the Encyclopedia Britannica, that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.
Genesis 41: After Joseph had revealed to the king that his dreams were a prophecy telling of a seven year period of plenty, which would be followed by a seven year period of severe drought, Joseph is made Governor of all Egypt, and all Egyptians were commanded by the King to obey him. The King removed his royal ring with its engraved seal and put it on the finger of Joseph. He was given the second royal chariot and a guard of honour who went ahead of him crying out, “Make way, make way.” And the King said: I am King, but no one in all of Egypt shall so much as lift a hand or a foot without Joseph’s permission. He gave Joseph an Egyptian wife, Asenath, the daughter of the High priest of Heliopolis, who prophesied that if ever the bones of Joseph left Egypt, the LIGHT of Egypt would go with him. For that reason, a permanent guard was set up to keep watch over the tomb of Joseph, in order that no one could remove the mummified body of Joseph.
During the seven years of plenty, Joseph gathered a percentage of the Egyptian grain crop as a tax, which was stored in silos throughout Egypt. In the early stages of the great seven-year drought, the Egyptians had to buy their grain from Joseph, when their money had all gone they traded their possessions and livestock, after which, they were forced to sign their land over for grain in order to survive.
Genesis 47: 20-21. Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for the king. Every Egyptian was forced to sell their land, because the famine was so severe; Joseph made slaves of all the people from one end of Egypt to the other, without striking a blow.
If Josephus the historian is correct and the exodus of the Shepherd Kings did occur in 1567 BC, and Jericho was destroyed after they had wandered in the desert for 40 years, then according to the biblical account, the destruction of Jericho would have occurred around 1527 BC. 1567-40=1527.
The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors, much like the cloak of many colours that was worn by Joseph the son of Israel and the first of the Hykos kings, of who it is said in Genesis 50: 23; that he lived to receive the children of Machir the son of Manasseh into the family. And in Judges 5: 14, it is written that the commanders of the army came down from Machir, of who it is said in Joshua 17: 1; that Machir was the first born son of Manasseh, the first born of Joseph, and that he was a military hero, and the father of young Gilead.
Gilead the first born of Machir would have been welcomed into the family by Joseph, and presumably, the funeral procession of Young Gilead in the line of first born of the Hykos Kings, who died childless would have been led by his great grandfather Joseph, and buried in his own tomb, which was to be later placed under a permanent guard against tomb robbers.
It is my belief that the young Prince Gilead died beside his father ‘Machir’ in a war against the people of the country that would later carry his name, ‘The land of Gilead’ that was allocated to the descendants of Machir after the exodus.
The book of Jubilees, reveals that the first born son of Ephraim, was killed in the land of Gath, while on a raiding excursion to steal cattle.
Again, it is my belief that after the Exodus of the shepherd kings, and the removal of the mummified remains of Joseph, which were to be taken to Shechem and buried there in the land of Israel as per Joseph’s last wish, the Egyptian Guards would have been removed, and any grave robbers who were later confronted with the opened sarcophagus’ in the empty tomb of Joseph, would have assumed that others had beaten them to it, and had left empty handed, not realising, that in a sealed chamber at the back of Joseph’s tomb, was the mummified remains of the young prince of the Hykos dynasty, with all its wonderful treasures.
Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.
The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.
1562 (minus 38 years) [1562-38=1524 BC.] this would mean that Jericho fell somewhere between 1562 and 1524 BC, close enough to the 40 years after Josephus’ date for the Exodus in 1567. [1567-40=1527 BC]
To say God could not soften Pharoes heart if he was already a cruel person would be limiting the power of an all mighty being. As far as an example of someone in scripture who was very cruel and hard hearted that God changed, I think Saul who became Paul is one very good example. In the case of God hardening Pharoes heart instead of softening it? I don't understand that and have no problem admitting it.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
The reason why Israel was sent into the Land of Ham/Egypt was to interbreed with the descendants of Ham the first born son of Noah, for 215 years, thereby transferring the spirit of first born to the descendants of Shem, to who was given the blessing of first born by Noah after he had cursed Canaan for what his youngest descendant had done to him while he lay naked in his tent in a drunken stupor.
After all the first born sons of Ham were killed, the spirit of first born left Egypt in the bodies of Shem's descendants, and the Light of Egypt went out when God called his son out of Egypt.
Genesis 9: 24; When Noah sobered up and learned what his youngest son/descendant had done to him, he cursed Canaan and blessed his second son Shem, on who he then bestowed the blessing of first born.
Jubilees 7: 13; And Ham knew that his father had cursed his younger son, and he was displeased that he had cursed his son. and he parted from his father, he and his sons with him, Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan. And he built for himself a city and called its name after the name of his wife Ne’elatama’uk.
The Book of Jubilees Chapter 8: When Noah divided the Land among his three sons, Shem received the middle portion, from the delta of the river of Egypt, north to Lebanon and east to India, while Ham received the land of Africa to the south, and Japheth received the land to the north of Lebanon, which according to the book of Jubilees 8: 30; It is said that the Land of Japheth included the five great islands and a great land in the north. But it is cold, and the land of Ham is Hot, and the land of Shem (The middle son) is neither hot nor cold, but it is of blended cold and heat.
The sons of Noah then divided their portion of land among their sons, and it is written in Jubilees 9: 14; “And thus the sons of Noah divided unto their sons in the presence of Noah their father, and he bound them all by an oath, imprecating a curse on everyone who sought to seize the portion that had not fallen to him by lot. And they all said, ‘So be it; so be it,’ for themselves and for their sons for ever throughout their generations til the day of judgement, etc.”
Then in chapter 10: 29; we read; “And Canaan saw the land of Lebanon to the river Egypt, that it was very good, and he went not into the land of his inheritance to the west (That is to) the sea, and he dwelt in the land of Lebanon, eastward and westward from the border of the Jordan and from the border of the sea. And Ham his father, and Cush and Mizraim, his brothers said unto him: ‘Thou hast settled in a land which is not thine, and which did not fall to us by lot: do not do so; for if thou dost do so, thou and thy sons will fall in the land and be accursed through sedition; for by sedition ye have settled; and by sedition will thy children fall, and thou shalt be rooted out forever, etc.
After Noah had transferred the blessing of firstborn to Shem, the Lord God then had to remove from Ham the spirit of Firstborn and implant it into the expanded body of Shem.
Noah began his family when he was 500, Ham was his first born, the flood finished when Noah was 600 and Shem was 100 two years after the flood, revealing that Shem was born when Noah was 502, See Genesis 11: 10.
In Genesis 10: 21; it is written; "Shem the older brother of Japheth, was the ancestor of all the Hebrews." Revealing that although Shem received the blessing of first born, he was actually the second born son of Noah, as was Isaac the second born son of Abraham, and Jacob who was given the name 'ISRAEL' was the second born of Isaac, etc..
After all the first born sons of Ham were killed, the spirit of first born left Egypt in the bodies of Shem's descendants, and the Light of Egypt went out when God called his son out of Egypt.
Genesis 9: 24; When Noah sobered up and learned what his youngest son/descendant had done to him, he cursed Canaan and blessed his second son Shem, on who he then bestowed the blessing of first born.
Jubilees 7: 13; And Ham knew that his father had cursed his younger son, and he was displeased that he had cursed his son. and he parted from his father, he and his sons with him, Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan. And he built for himself a city and called its name after the name of his wife Ne’elatama’uk.
The Book of Jubilees Chapter 8: When Noah divided the Land among his three sons, Shem received the middle portion, from the delta of the river of Egypt, north to Lebanon and east to India, while Ham received the land of Africa to the south, and Japheth received the land to the north of Lebanon, which according to the book of Jubilees 8: 30; It is said that the Land of Japheth included the five great islands and a great land in the north. But it is cold, and the land of Ham is Hot, and the land of Shem (The middle son) is neither hot nor cold, but it is of blended cold and heat.
The sons of Noah then divided their portion of land among their sons, and it is written in Jubilees 9: 14; “And thus the sons of Noah divided unto their sons in the presence of Noah their father, and he bound them all by an oath, imprecating a curse on everyone who sought to seize the portion that had not fallen to him by lot. And they all said, ‘So be it; so be it,’ for themselves and for their sons for ever throughout their generations til the day of judgement, etc.”
Then in chapter 10: 29; we read; “And Canaan saw the land of Lebanon to the river Egypt, that it was very good, and he went not into the land of his inheritance to the west (That is to) the sea, and he dwelt in the land of Lebanon, eastward and westward from the border of the Jordan and from the border of the sea. And Ham his father, and Cush and Mizraim, his brothers said unto him: ‘Thou hast settled in a land which is not thine, and which did not fall to us by lot: do not do so; for if thou dost do so, thou and thy sons will fall in the land and be accursed through sedition; for by sedition ye have settled; and by sedition will thy children fall, and thou shalt be rooted out forever, etc.
After Noah had transferred the blessing of firstborn to Shem, the Lord God then had to remove from Ham the spirit of Firstborn and implant it into the expanded body of Shem.
Noah began his family when he was 500, Ham was his first born, the flood finished when Noah was 600 and Shem was 100 two years after the flood, revealing that Shem was born when Noah was 502, See Genesis 11: 10.
In Genesis 10: 21; it is written; "Shem the older brother of Japheth, was the ancestor of all the Hebrews." Revealing that although Shem received the blessing of first born, he was actually the second born son of Noah, as was Isaac the second born son of Abraham, and Jacob who was given the name 'ISRAEL' was the second born of Isaac, etc..
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Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
I'm aware of it. I'm also aware it's considered to be fraud by most scholars (unless they are attempting to "justify" their belief, naturally...)
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
But he wasn't allowed-- the bible is very clear: In order to Glorify God by mass slaughter of many peoples, god deliberately blocked any chance Pharaoh had to simply let them leave.
It literally says "for the glory of god" in the same passage where poor Pharaoh was stripped of any possibility of negotiation.
It's a brutal story, in a brutal book, about a Bronze Age god who is malicious, selfish and pretty indifferent to mass death.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
This is as far as I got with your Straw Man.
1) I don't hate god. I also don't hate Voldemort. Neither do I hate Dr Doom or any number of fictional evil characters.
2) I love how you manage to be a Mind Reader: and you somehow know what I know. Amazing! You ought to go on the road or something.
3) I judge this "god" of yours? By all the various folk who claim to speak FOR him-- many claim EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS too.
If there WAS a god who was 1/100th as GOOD as you pretend?
NONE OF THESE PEOPLE WOULD BE PERMITTED. Since you ALSO claim the consequences are so.... grim.
No. You prove yet again, that there cannot possibly be any gods who CARE about humanity!
Simply because of your first JUDGMENTAL paragraph alone... !
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
That's cute. Re-writing actual HISTORY in order to twist it to fit what you wish were actually true.
Joseph has been discredited time and time again--- moreover? He was alive CENTURIES too late to be of any use, here.
You lose on three counts.
That's your CLAIM. You cannot use your CLAIM to "prove" ... your CLAIM.
ooops!
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