I'd Like an Argument, Please

[YmirGF]

On the other hand, how many atheists do you know that believe in an afterlife?

*Puts up hand*

I do, but am quick to add that it's not like anything we have been told, that there is nothing to worry about, you are gonna love it and don't expect to be bowing and scraping to your imagined god. (Theoretically, you could if you wanted but would likely feel a bit silly as everyone would be pointing and laughing at the newbie!) The beauty of my variant is that you don't have to believe and nothing bad will happen to you for daring to think differently about the possibility.

I'm not saying religion is required to believe in an afterlife, or that all religious people believe in an afterlife, but the two are tied up pretty intimately aren't they?

Because there is no downside to these claims for the given religion. They get to pump up the faith aspect and can passively-aggressively threaten anyone who questions them. Easy breezy, lemon squeezy!

 

[Quintessence]

I'm not saying religion is required to believe in an afterlife, or that all religious people believe in an afterlife, but the two are tied up pretty intimately aren't they?

I don't think they are at all, no. Westerners often think so, however, because the dominant religious traditions in those areas are death-preparing ones.

 

[Demonslayer]

The association certainly exists. I don't know how to tell whether it is common

I was always under the impression that the great majority of religious people believed in afterlife/soul, and the great majority of non-religious people didn't.

I do know that I very much find it unhealthy, particularly when it is given any emphasis. All the more when it is taken as a literal truth.

Me too. The only way I find the idea of an afterlife to be a positive is for people who simply couldn't function otherwise, due to extreme panic about their eventual notness.

There are a few. It is not a healthy belief for us, either.

Well there's no "heaven" for atheists I wouldn't think, because heaven is a God construct. So what afterlife do atheists believe in? Is it this 'we exist as energy" idea I hear so much about?

To me that's not really an afterlife because you won't be "you." Maybe I'll be zipping along through an extension cord somewhere, powering up someone's Christmas tree lights, but it won't be "me."

Religious is supposed to be worthy and healthy.

LOL, says who?

 

[HonestJoe]

Because one can try to follow Jesus instead of focusing entirely on denominations conjured up by others, especially those in the last few hundred years or so.

Of course. My question was about the choice to taken on the label Christian in that context though and what it actually means to him. It related to my wider point which is effectively the difference between seeking a religion to follow compared to coming to terms with what you already believe, say and do.

 

[Demonslayer]

I do, but am quick to add that it's not like anything we have been told, that there is nothing to worry about, you are gonna love it and don't expect to be bowing and scraping to your imagined god.

Interesting, so what's your view of this Godless afterlife? Will there be beer?

(Theoretically, you could if you wanted but would likely feel a bit silly as everyone would be pointing and laughing at the newbie!)

Phew, I'm glad you told me, I wouldn't want my first impression to be that of a fool. Particularly if we're going to be here for eternity!

 

[YmirGF]

Interesting, so what's your view of this Godless afterlife? Will there be beer?

If you want if, but I hear it goes flat pretty fast. Anything further than that might derail the thread too much.

IPhew, I'm glad you told me, I wouldn't want my first impression to be that of a fool. Particularly if we're going to be here for eternity!

From what I gather, "DOH!" is one of the most common utterances for the first while... oh and you're not there for eternity. You are quite free to take holidays as you see fit to explore whatever interests you.

Who knows, maybe I'll flesh this out a bit and then let the RF minions rip and tear at it later in another thread. Doh. Gotta go catch my ferry to the mainland now......

 

[Quintessence]

Well there's no "heaven" for atheists I wouldn't think, because heaven is a God construct.

To those who worship the one-god, the entire universe is a "God construct," not just heaven. That aside, nothing about the idea of an otherworldly plane called "heaven" necessitates accepting there is some sort of deity. I don't understand why folks think that theism automatically means afterlife or vice versa. Well, I get it if they're only exposure to religion is very limited, but otherwise? That assumption doesn't make sense.

So what afterlife do atheists believe in? Is it this 'we exist as energy" idea I hear so much about?

To me that's not really an afterlife because you won't be "you." Maybe I'll be zipping along through an extension cord somewhere, powering up someone's Christmas tree lights, but it won't be "me."

Interesting. If you are limiting the idea of "afterlife" to the eternal preservation of ego identity, than it is not at all uncommon for members of various religions to reject such a notion. Anyone who follows reincarnation wouldn't qualify, because reincarnation does not entail eternal preservation of ego identity, but some fairly dramatic and continuous changes to it such that you would not be "you" either.

LOL, says who?

Pretty much anybody who isn't as anti-religious as you seem to be.

 

[Demonslayer]

That aside, nothing about the idea of an otherworldly plane called "heaven" necessitates accepting there is some sort of deity.

You keep going back to the idea of "necessitates" which I never said. I'm saying heaven is commonly associated with religion. According to this, 68% of the world's population are Christian, Muslim or Hindu. Christians and Muslims have heaven, Hindus have Nirvana, and all three have deities. The next 15% are secular/atheists/agnostic. You only have 17% of the world left. Buddhists make up about 5% and they have Nirvana with no deity. All the other religions are insignificant from a world population standpoint and while I'm quite sure many of them have ideas of heaven/afterlife without the idea of a deity, they don't factor in when talking about what is common.

Again, I've clarified this once...I'm not saying heaven or afterlife are necessarily linked to religion. I understand there are religious that have an idea of afterlife that isn't heaven, some that have no deity, or a million deities, or thing we fly around as energy or whatever. I understand that there are a whole host of small religions that have lots of different ideas about what happens when we die, what being are out there, etc. But none of that takes away from my statement that there is a very common link between religion and the concept of an afterlife and/or heaven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

 

[LuisDantas]

Well there's no "heaven" for atheists I wouldn't think, because heaven is a God construct. So what afterlife do atheists believe in? Is it this 'we exist as energy" idea I hear so much about?

I don't find that particularly useful or advisable, either.

Myself, I have my own - extremely naturalistic, mind you - reading of the Buddhist idea of Interdependent Origination. I don't think it justifies any kind of afterlife beliefs, but it certainly does answer the question that some ask about "why we care if we will end up dead".

LOL, says who?

I do. #AllPeopleMatter

 

[Demonslayer]

Interesting. If you are limiting the idea of "afterlife" to the eternal preservation of ego identity, than it is not at all uncommon for members of various religions to reject such a notion. Anyone who follows reincarnation wouldn't qualify, because reincarnation does not entail eternal preservation of ego identity, but some fairly dramatic and continuous changes to it such that you would not be "you" either.

Well, what I said was "to me" if there is no preservation of an ego it doesn't count as an afterlife because the "me" I'm used to wouldn't be there. When folks talk about their idea of an afterlife being 'existing as energy' I think...who cares? If when I die my consciousness ceases to exist, that's the end of "me." So I'm energy? I'm not putting down the belief, I'm trying to see how that qualifies as an 'afterlife.' I mean my bones are there too, so if I 'exist as bones' is that an afterlife?

Again, I think you feel I'm trying to force everyone's belief systems here. I'm not, I'm just saying that to me for an afterlife to matter, you'd have to remember your life. Reincarnation to me is not an afterlife at all, it's a NEW life. People who say they were Napoleon or Shakespeare in a former life...that's not Napoleon's afterlife, it's that person's life. Right? If my "soul," the one in me right now driving this 45 year old body who is a finance professional, loves to ski, and is pissed off that Tom Brady dropped his appeal...if that soul was some guy Bob Jones who died in 1971 when I was born and his soul flipped into my brand spankin' new body...what does that mean? Am I not me? Am I he? Is this my life or is this his afterlife?

That's why I don't see reincarnation as an "afterlife." And again, these are just my views, my opinions.

 

[Demonslayer]

Pretty much anybody who isn't as anti-religious as you seem to be.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan.

 

[Spockrates]

You must immediately find and lick the hand of an alpha preacher, or you are not a Christian. Once you find one who will allow it you must turn about and drop your pants, so they can mark you as their own.

I believe you're thinking of the Seer in The Vikings TV series.

 

[Spockrates]

I've told you once.

I've forgotten twice. [emoji12]

 

[Spockrates]

It is my opinion that one should attempt to put things on his or her own words far as religion goes.

For instance, there are several competing understandings about what the role of religion is or should be.

Myself, I think it is ultimately a very personal matter and more than a little part of it involves finding ways to express yourself and your own beliefs and learn from others who may, if not share, at least understand them somewhat.

For that reason I am very much partial towards Dharmic religion and have a hard time finding the point of revelations. Since you are a Christian, may I suggest some reading about the Quakers? Their approach towards Christianism is, from what I know, a very much commendable one.

Please tell me in what way their approach toward Christianity is commendable.

 

[Spockrates]

You may want to look up Deism. It's a half way house between believing in God and using reason and evidence as a method for investigation that is one of atheism's advantages. You could also consider Christian atheism and Jesusism as well. But it is up to you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuism

There isn't an absolute boundary between Christianity and atheism as it is less a question of what you believe than how you reach those beliefs. The major difference is how they treat revelation as a source for beliefs, where as Christians accept it and atheists will either say it is unreliable or reject it.
Some atheists would say the bible is not a reliable source of information and challenge the historical existence of Jesus, but they are less common nowadays.
It is worth noting that there isn't a single belief called atheism, but several ones- making definitions of atheism very confusing (and a difficult near constant subject of debate). Deism is probably a nice belief to look at, as it uses the methods of atheism to investigate religious claims whilst still reserving the right to hold those beliefs.

Interesting. Thank you.

 

[Spockrates]

Start with... should religion be approached as a cosmic quiz, better/good ones being based on how many right answers one can detect within a set of text-book, dogmatic beliefs? I think people are conditioned into seeing (and searching) religion in this way, even though it doesn't help with getting any sense of religious fulfillment. I liken it to repeatedly checking pulses in a morgue.

What really makes this or that tradition better is how it enhances lives...in my opinion. Does it open you up and move you to experience your day, your work, your relationships to the fullest capacity?

In Christianity I think it depends on the individual more than the denomination.

Well, I suppose the denomination one chooses has a good deal to do with how enhanced the life will be of the one joining the denomination. Don't you agree?

 

[Demonslayer]

I believe you're thinking of the Seer in The Vikings TV series.

Seer? How can he see anything with that schmutz over his eyes?

 

[Spockrates]

How do you define “being a Christian”. I’m not sure I see the point in taking the label if you’re not actually practicing any Christian denomination.

Why search for a specific denomination or religion at all though?

Well, I suppose it has to do with life after death. Some tell me choosing wrong now will be detrimental then.

Would it make any major difference to your fundamental beliefs or how you live your life?

Yes, if the premise, above is one to be taken seriously, I suppose.

Why not just be a “you”?

I'm thinking we are in part the choices we make, so I don't yet see how making a choice about religion would make me less than I am.

 

[Spockrates]

I have no religion....I believe in God
and the Carpenter is the Inspiration

pick a parable and post as an op
that should do it!
oy!

Thanks M8!

 

[LuisDantas]

Please tell me in what way their approach toward Christianity is commendable.

Keeping in mind that I am going entirely by second-hand information, it is my understanding that they encourage open and respectful discussion of their articles of faith. That is a very internalized, non-dogmatic approach which I can't help but sympathise with. They even give their teenagers some time in the "outside world" before they decide whether they want to live as traditional Quakers.

They also seem to keep a very healthy balance between having solid traditions and interacting with "outsiders", with little room for xenophobic fears - probably because they take such good care to decide what they believe and seek and why they do.

Very Dharmic, if I dare say so.