I'd like to debate this...

[Riverwolf]

1. The dark ages were not that dark. Modern historians deride the term and prefer "early middle ages--the term refers to events after the fall of the Roman Empire. There were severe plagues, but Man's overall condition continued to improve.

Wrong. Conditions worsened at that time. Knowledge was lost, illiteracy increased, poverty was everywhere... plagues were just the tip of the iceburgs. It's not for nothing that the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire are called "dark." Heck, it's primarily because of the illiteracy; we don't have very many written records from that time period.

Also, the majority of wars and horrors continued (as they still do) because of religion.

Also wrong. It's primarily politics. Religion is just the flimsy justification, not the actual reason. Then and now.

2. Various cultures have, at times, advanced farther/faster than others. Sometimes it's the Chinese. Maybe this time it was the Muslims. This supports, rather than refutes my contention.

Not really. After all, if your contention was true, then it should apply to all people, and ESPECIALLY to the Christian civilizations. However, those didn't get a golden age until the Renaissance.

3. Are you honestly contending that, the pace of Technology before Christ is even comparable to the pace of technology since His death?

Absolutely. Technological advancements were VERY slow during the dark ages. But technology isn't even the big point; science is. There were TONS of scientific advancements before Christ's death, especially in the fields of astronomy and mathematics, which suddenly halted after the fall of the Roman Empire in Europe. Heck, our entire system of geometry was formulated by Euclid, who lived around 300 BC. Much of the knowledge gained before that time was lost and wouldn't be rediscovered for several centuries.

Now, I am one of those who doesn't believe the entirety of the Middle Ages was the Dark Ages; after all, it was around 1000 A.D. that the university was invented, which is right smack dab in the middle of the Middle Ages, and on the tail end of the Dark Ages. Plus, around that time, philosophical thought was being heavily influenced by Aristotle, one of the smartest men who ever lived. (He was the one who discovered the earth is round.)

When it comes to technological advancement, it didn't even come close to really picking up until the industrial revolution, which wasn't even 200 years ago. Before that, technological advancement, if you consider it on a global scale, was pretty steady.

 

[Seeker1]

There is only One God, Supreme, All-loving, and without rival or equal. No other gods exist or have existed.

Because of His love for humanity, He sends a Divine Messenger typically every 500-1,000 years to educate us by renewing religion and giving us updated social teachings (the spiritual teachings never change). This happened in the long past, has continued to the present, and will continue without end.

Jesus' death was not to redeem humanity but because humans rejected Him, tortured Him, and killed Him--NOT because of any intent or desire on God's part!

Nor is Jesus the only Divine Messenger to Whom this has happened, please note.

As humanity gradually evolved, we're given more and more advanced divine teachings, and will someday be able to arrive at a far more spiritual state (even while still in this life) than at present!

Peace,

Bruce

I find this intriguing. Please excuse the slowness of my response. Reading suggestions? I'd love to know more.
Thanks in advance
Kurt

 

[Seeker1]

Wrong. Conditions worsened at that time. Knowledge was lost, illiteracy increased, poverty was everywhere... plagues were just the tip of the iceburgs. It's not for nothing that the centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire are called "dark." Heck, it's primarily because of the illiteracy; we don't have very many written records from that time period.
O.k., seeker, lets not fight about what was going on in Europe at that time. Was this "dark age" global? Weren't there other civilizations--you've mentioned Islam, for instance--that were continuing and gaining kowledge at this time? I'm talking about Mankind in General, not just the European part. According to Wikipedia there have been plenty of Dark Ages---in certain places at certain times. Probably at least one going on right now, today.

Also wrong. It's primarily politics. Religion is just the flimsy justification, not the actual reason. Then and now.

I agree with you totally on this point. Nothing to Debate, it was a poorly constructed sentence that sneaked by when I checked over what I'd written. Apologies.

Not really. After all, if your contention was true, then it should apply to all people, and ESPECIALLY to the Christian civilizations. However, those didn't get a golden age until the Renaissance.
I believe that the removal of direct intervention helped everyone. People could do, or not do, as they pleased. Tghere were slips and there were steps. We could though, if you like, debate life today in Europe compared to lots of other places.

Absolutely. Technological advancements were VERY slow during the dark ages. But technology isn't even the big point; science is. There were TONS of scientific advancements before Christ's death, especially in the fields of astronomy and mathematics, which suddenly halted after the fall of the Roman Empire in Europe. Heck, our entire system of geometry was formulated by Euclid, who lived around 300 BC. Much of the knowledge gained before that time was lost and wouldn't be rediscovered for several centuries.

Now, I am one of those who doesn't believe the entirety of the Middle Ages was the Dark Ages; after all, it was around 1000 A.D. that the university was invented, which is right smack dab in the middle of the Middle Ages, and on the tail end of the Dark Ages. Plus, around that time, philosophical thought was being heavily influenced by Aristotle, one of the smartest men who ever lived. (He was the one who discovered the earth is round.)

When it comes to technological advancement, it didn't even come close to really picking up until the industrial revolution, which wasn't even 200 years ago. Before that, technological advancement, if you consider it on a global scale, was pretty steady.

You know, I went outside and thought of one thing we've gotten way better at. Killing each other. Think about it, we could probably win WW2 with one carrier group of today. Much of the world lives in darkness, their lot only improved by cheap chinese or indian clothes to wear, cell phones and Andrei Kalashnikov's handy cheap assault rifle. That thing is everywhere. So I guess one big advancement is this: A handful of Somali Pirates could have cleaned the Spartans out from in front of the Hot Gates in about thirty seconds. I cede the argument, you win.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I find this intriguing. Reading suggestions?

If you'd like a general introduction, I'd recommend Baha'u'llah and the New Era, which you can get from the Baha'is or find in a good library. Another, more detailed title is The Baha'i Fati: The Emerging Global Religion. You can also find good information at: http://www.bahai.org

If you'd like to see our scriptures, please visit one of these sites:

• http://www/bahai-library.org (click Writings)
• http://www.reference.bahai.org (this site is multilingual)

And I wish you good hunting!

Bruce