Idealistic moralities Vs "The real world"

[michel]

Forked from: 14 year old boy rapes 12 year old girl... (please see that thread for the background of the story)
- basically, 14 year old boy takes 12 year old girl at knife point into an alleyway, and rapes her.

The Judge sentenses him to a 'supervision order - electronically tagged- for a period of two years. The public are revolted at the leniency.

Seyorni, you have hit the nail on the head........the eternal juxtaposition of the 'punishment, to appease an angry public' and the 'Moral high ground of how best to deal with what must be a dreadful problem.'

Society needs to see revenge and yet, revenge serves no one any real value.

Does the girl feel better because the guy is punished (whatever the punishment is) ? Will it make her sufferring any the less traumatic ?

Trying to put a "Buddhist hat" on, what has been has been, and is irreversible.

The 'Now' includes the restoring the girl's ability to 'go on', and the trauma (self inflicted) the boy has felt (and I don't just mean the trauma of giving evidence); I am reaching into his (hopefully) guilt, remorse............how will he face those around him again, now that they are aware of what he has done?

And why did he do it?........Is he sick in the mind?.....is there a chemical imbalance, or has he himself been subject to gross indecent abuse, and is perpetuating it ?

Punishing him will have no value whatsoever (to his character); if anything, he will be put into a young offender's institution where he will mix with more bad lads. Given his offence, he might even get beaten up and treated abysmally by the others around him in the institution.

A recap........The past is past; the 'Now' needs dealing with (for both he and his victim).

Idealistic morality would have him homed in a loving and devoted family environment so that whatever was the causation of his need to do the deed can be 'repaired'...............As a Christian, I have to ask myself foremost "What do I believe Jesus would have done to deal with the situation?"

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Idealistic morality would have him homed in a loving and devoted family environment so that whatever was the causation of his need to do the deed can be 'repaired'...............As a Christian, I have to ask myself foremost "What do I believe Jesus would have done to deal with the situation?"

The problem is, Michel, I cannot imagine an idealistic morality without justice. The rapist did great harm - he raped the girl and forced her to perform oral sex on him.

I agree that the kid should be investigated to see if he has been a victim of sexual abuse, and we should find out why he did this and try to help him.

However, he must be held responsible for his actions and punished according to the severity of his offense. Even in reality - not your idealistic morality, I don't see why the boy or anyone else in the UK should think that they will be held responsible for their crimes.

In fact, if I ever descide to turn to a life of crime - seriously - I plan to do it in the UK.

 

[Smoke]

The Judge sentenses him to a 'supervision order - electronically tagged- for a period of two years. The public are revolted at the leniency.

I have to admit I really don't know what to do with a kid like that, but this does seem lax.

I actually almost wrote that putting him into a penal institution will just turn him into a hardened criminal, but I think he sounds like he's already a hardened criminal. He should probably be in a psychiatric hospital, at least, and if a rapist doesn't qualify to be put into some kind of "juvenile justice" facility, then who does?

 

[Smoke]

The problem is, Michel, I cannot imagine an idealistic morality without justice. The rapist did great harm - he raped the girl and forced her to perform oral sex on him.

I agree that the kid should be investigated to see if he has been a victim of sexual abuse, and we should find out why he did this and try to help him.

However, he must be held responsible for his actions and punished according to the severity of his offense. Even in reality - not your idealistic morality, I don't see why the boy or anyone else in the UK should think that they will be held responsible for their crimes.

The thing is, vengeance isn't really justice; you can't balance the scales. You can't unrape the girl; nothing you do to this kid is going to equal what he did, and nothing is going to wipe that trauma from her mind. What you have here is a very twisted boy and a traumatized girl, and you have to try to figure out the best way to salvage what you can from the situation. I have to admit I have my doubts about how much of this boy's life can be salvaged.

 

[Fluffy]

The thing is, vengeance isn't really justice; you can't balance the scales. You can't unrape the girl; nothing you do to this kid is going to equal what he did, and nothing is going to wipe that trauma from her mind. What you have here is a very twisted boy and a traumatized girl, and you have to try to figure out the best way to salvage what you can from the situation. I have to admit I have my doubts about how much of this boy's life can be salvaged.

I have no doubt that this boy's life can be salvaged in full and he can be turned into a productive member of society. Even if I did have reason to doubt it, I would not let that doubt affect my actions since that would severely reduce any chance he had.

I don't just see no point in revenge, I see no point in punishment. Any step that the law takes should be to protect and help people. If any form of negativity is deemed necessary, it should be done to try and rehabilitate the offender and therefore I cannot view it as a punishment since its aim is to help.

This is not to say that I would never take revenge or punish another person... to claim that would be to claim perfection. However, to institutionalise those emotions which we should all be fighting against is just not good enough.

Lastly, I would say that revenge can produce a sense of short term fulfillment on the part of those who have been wronged. However, generally the law is incredibly slow in getting round to this due to the sluggishness of the legal process and by the time a sentence is reached, any need for revenge on the part of the victim is long gone. It is much more beneficial for a person to forgive their attacker and move on with their lives since this gives them the least suffering.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

In fact, if I ever descide to turn to a life of crime - seriously - I plan to do it in the UK.

LOL, I just wouldn't want to end up in one of their prisons. I hear those "holligans" are some pretty tough dudes.

He should probably be in a psychiatric hospital, at least, and if a rapist doesn't qualify to be put into some kind of "juvenile justice" facility, then who does?

In Iowa, All sexual offenders are considered for civil commitment for an indefinite amount of time after they serve their sentence.

The thing is, vengeance isn't really justice; you can't balance the scales. You can't unrape the girl; nothing you do to this kid is going to equal what he did, and nothing is going to wipe that trauma from her mind. What you have here is a very twisted boy and a traumatized girl, and you have to try to figure out the best way to salvage what you can from the situation. I have to admit I have my doubts about how much of this boy's life can be salvaged....

I have no doubt that this boy's life can be salvaged in full and he can be turned into a productive member of society. Even if I did have reason to doubt it, I would not let that doubt affect my actions since that would severely reduce any chance he had.

I don't just see no point in revenge, I see no point in punishment. Any step that the law takes should be to protect and help people. If any form of negativity is deemed necessary, it should be done to try and rehabilitate the offender and therefore I cannot view it as a punishment since its aim is to help.

This is not to say that I would never take revenge or punish another person... to claim that would be to claim perfection. However, to institutionalise those emotions which we should all be fighting against is just not good enough.

Lastly, I would say that revenge can produce a sense of short term fulfillment on the part of those who have been wronged. However, generally the law is incredibly slow in getting round to this due to the sluggishness of the legal process and by the time a sentence is reached, any need for revenge on the part of the victim is long gone. It is much more beneficial for a person to forgive their attacker and move on with their lives since this gives them the least suffering.

The thing is though, vengance is very much a part of the justice system and most of society is very much O.K. with that in practice, but try to talk against it in philosophy. A majority of a person's time spent incarcerated will have nothing to do with rehabilitation or treatment and more to do with "doing time" for their crime. On top of that, the treatment programs are trully a joke, run by people who are more concerned with earning a bigger paycheck and looking important than rehabilitating the "scum of the earth". If rehabilitation and treatment were the main concern then prisons would be obsolete and criminals would all be civilly commited.

One thing I always used to laugh at is that when one got denied a parole release, they would get a letter from the parole board stating: "We do not feel that you are ready for society at this time." The reason I used to think this was so funny is that the philosophy behind it was a joke. They lock you up separated from general society in a subculture that is different in many ways from general society, tell you when to do everything (eat, sleep, etc.) for years at a time and expect you to be ready for society when you get out. Eleanor Rosevelt once stated "If you want to see the scum of the earth, go to your local jail during shift change".

I have plenty more to say about this, but I think I'll stop before I get carried away.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The thing is, vengeance isn't really justice; you can't balance the scales. You can't unrape the girl; nothing you do to this kid is going to equal what he did, and nothing is going to wipe that trauma from her mind. What you have here is a very twisted boy and a traumatized girl, and you have to try to figure out the best way to salvage what you can from the situation. I have to admit I have my doubts about how much of this boy's life can be salvaged.

I agree.

Vengence in this case would be delivering the kid to the family and allowing the family to do whatever they wanted.

It's just a shame to turn a kid like this right back out on the street. It will be further injustice when he does it again.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

LOL, I just wouldn't want to end up in one of their prisons. I hear those "holligans" are some pretty tough dudes.

I'm banking on not going to prison.

Duh...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Personal freedom in exchange for crime is a fair trade IMO. If criminals must live, they must live without freedom.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

I'm banking on not going to prison.

Duh...

What incarcerated criminal didn't.

Duh...

Personal freedom in exchange for crime is a fair trade IMO. If criminals must live, they must live without freedom.

The problem with this thinking is that, unless they committed a crime that deserves a life sentece, their going to get back out and regain their freedoms. Chances are they are going to be ****** off at society and commit crimes again. Don't believe me, look up recitivism rates.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What incarcerated criminal didn't.

Duh...

The problem with this thinking is that, unless they committed a crime that deserves a life sentece, their going to get back out and regain their freedoms. Chances are they are going to be ****** off at society and commit crimes again. Don't believe me, look up recitivism rates.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

True and often too soon.

 

[Quiddity]

I have first hand experience on releasing inmates out of jail.
They are brought forth before a Council and observed by a psychologist and other board members. The inmate can lie his teeth off and get released.

Point: Our jail system sucks.

 

[Booko]

The thing is, vengeance isn't really justice; you can't balance the scales. You can't unrape the girl; nothing you do to this kid is going to equal what he did, and nothing is going to wipe that trauma from her mind. What you have here is a very twisted boy and a traumatized girl, and you have to try to figure out the best way to salvage what you can from the situation. I have to admit I have my doubts about how much of this boy's life can be salvaged.

You make an excellent point about the difference between vengeance and justice.

I've never thought vengeance should be part of jurisprudence. But protection of society should be.

A 14 yr old who rapes a girl likely has something that needs work, psychologically speaking....BUT he has no business being out on the streets at all where he might find another opportunity to rape or abuse someone else.

I don't see why leniency must always go hand in hand with zip for consequences. Is there no middle ground here?

 

[JerryL]

I have to admit I really don't know what to do with a kid like that, but this does seem lax.

In basic priciple I can answer: He should be removed as a danger to society.

That is to say, society should be protected from his behavior... whether because his behavior has been altered through rehabilitation, or because he has been rendered physically incapable of threatening society.

How to do that is a far more nuanced question; and one that I could not even poit an answer to without far more information (even then, I'm unqualified).

 

[Smoke]

I agree 100% with everything Booko and JerryL said in their last two posts.

However, I think removing this boy from general society is only the beginning of the answer, and I'm not sure what the whole answer might be.

 

[Quiddity]

The thing is, vengeance isn't really justice; you can't balance the scales. You can't unrape the girl; nothing you do to this kid is going to equal what he did, and nothing is going to wipe that trauma from her mind. What you have here is a very twisted boy and a traumatized girl, and you have to try to figure out the best way to salvage what you can from the situation. I have to admit I have my doubts about how much of this boy's life can be salvaged.

What if anything can we do as a society to better things for both the victim and for the criminal?

Is locking them up, really the only option?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The British justice system has never been about vengence.
But nor has it done anything for the innocent victim.
The lipservice paid to corrective rehabilitation is a joke.
The choce is between prison or release.
neither have shown any signs of working.

The boy will get worse, get caught, be sent down, become a habitual criminal.
Under the system that now exists , he has no chance.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

*** The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 ***
Vengeance \Venge"ance\, n. [F. vengeance, fr. venger to avenge,
L. vindicare to lay claim to, defend, avenge, fr. vindex a
claimant, defender, avenger, the first part of which is of
uncertain origin, and the last part akin to dicere to say.
See {Diction}, and cf. {Avenge}, {Revenge}, {Vindicate}.]
1. Punishment inflicted in return for an injury or an
offense; retribution; -- often, in a bad sense, passionate
or unrestrained revenge.
[1913 Webster]

justice
n 1: the quality of being just or fair [syn: {justness}] [ant: {injustice}]
2: the administration of law; the act of determining rights and
assigning rewards or punishments; "justice deferred is
justice denied" [syn: {judicature}]

There is a very fine line between the two.

As far as this boy goes, Ofcourse I believe he should be kept from society until it can be proven that he is not a harm to society. My main point is that chances are, the treatment he wil get is more than likely going to be completely useless for him and if and when he gets out, any continued treatment will also be a joke.

True and often too soon.

Right, because they should be sitting in prison longer so they can learn more ways to commit crime and be more angry at society.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Right, because they should be sitting in prison longer so they can learn more ways to commit crime and be more angry at society.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

I don't have any sympathy at all for a person who is angry at society for punishing them justly for a crime that they commit of their own freewill.

Let them be angry.

 

[JerryL]

I don't have any sympathy at all for a person who is angry at society for punishing them justly for a crime that they commit of their own freewill.

It's a mistake to assume that our position has anythign to do with altruism. To protect ourselves from the government, we want a government that does the minimum neccessairy to make us safe.

A failure to rehabilitate does not make me safer. An angry person is not safer than a happy one. A more skilled or motivated criminal is exactly what I want to avoid.

At my most dispassionate I don't care if he lives or dies, but I know that government is an evil neccessity. The more action it takes, the more room for error. What, in the long run, makes me most safe; both from the potential or actual criminal and from the government itself?