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If Atheism is a psychological position we don't need to seriously consider it

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. they still have a degree of personal knowing (Otherwise they would be atheists, right?..)
That is word salad and it seems that you are good at making word salads. Why do you think that atheist must not have any personal knowledge whatsoever?? Generally the atheists have better knowledge than the theists because they have studied science as well as scriptures.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
. . . or your use of words you are using are justifying what you believe based on what you believe.
That is fine, as well.

Assuming that you know everything, or are correct about what you think you know, isn't knowing, anything. You're just making assumptions, and thinking it's different from belief.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
That is word salad and it seems that you are good at making word salads. Why do you think that atheist must not have any knowledge whatsoever?? Generally the atheists have better knowledge than the heists because they have studied science as well as scriptures.
Atheists don't have better knowledge.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That is fine, as well.

Assuming that you know everything, or are correct about what you think you know, isn't knowing, anything. You're just making assumptions, and thinking it's different from belief.

Actually no assumptions on my part. I am challenging your assumptions as to why you judge others beliefs and justify your own.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@Subduction Zone @Unveiled Artist

I’m not talking about all atheists. I’m talking about a belligerent kind of anti-theism that takes cover under a smokescreen of “lack of belief,” to excuse itself from substantiating or even qualifying its sweeping defamatory allegations against some religions and their followers, while insisting that no one has any right to believe in any god without passing its evidence tests.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
You need not say anything about justification, nor whether you are a theist, agnostic or one of the variety of many other choices. Justification is simply the reasons to believe, and there may be psychological? reasons for the justification of what one believes.. You entered the waters of justification of belief whether it was your intention or not.

Justification is not simply the reason to believe. It is whether one should believe. That is a moral or ethical question. I'll leave that to individuals to decide by their standards.

In any case, though 'being atheist' certainly ought to carry some psychological impact and cause, however I would not say that classifies atheism as a psychological condition rather than a philosophical position. It's quite clearly the latter, to me. It is a voluntary mode of thinking.

I do understand that psychology plays a role. I even said as much in the post you 'disagree' with. How seriously someone takes any choice is clearly a matter of psychology, thus by extension how seriously anyone takes atheism is a psychological matter, as well. That is true regardless of whether you identify as an atheist or not.

So what are you disagreeing with, exactly? Are you saying that atheism is a psychological condition rather than a philosophical position? Or are you saying that how seriously anyone takes atheism is not a psychological condition?
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Subduction Zone @Unveiled Artist

I’m not talking about all atheists.

I’m talking about anti-theism that masks as “lack of belief,” to excuse itself from substantiating allegations against some religions and their followers, while insisting that no one has any right to believe in any god without passing its evidence tests.

I dont understand. Who says you dont have the right to believe in god without evidence tests? Many are saying belief in god is illogical because there is no evidence that god exists in order to make the statement. Maybe youre taking this personal?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Athiests don't exist! When a person says they are an athiest, they are lying!

You caught us! We are the men in black.

download (8).jpeg
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I dont understand. Who says you dont have the right to believe in god without evidence tests? Many are saying belief in god is illogical because there is no evidence that god exists in order to make the statement. Maybe youre taking this personal?
I don’t want to put any more time and energy into trying to explain to you what I said to someone else, if you aren’t really trying to understand it. Are you?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I don’t want to put any more time and energy into trying to explain to you what I said to someone else, if you aren’t really trying to understand it. Are you?

Yes.

There are many people from all aruond the world, all languages, all different world views, and different beliefs so online you do ned more patience to people who genuinely do not understand you.

Also, asking for clarification is part of a productive conversation.

I have bad memory and cant always scroll up to remember what I asked and say. You are saying that you dont like when the disbelief in god is a coverup for anti-theism and the excuse that believers should hold the burden of proof?

...cause many believers (and atheists) objections and arguments target the believer or atheist not the facts and beliefs of both parties statements. So, right there, theres confusion and divide starts.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
From SEP: Atheism and Agnosticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

"“Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods).

This definition has the added virtue of making atheism a direct answer to one of the most important metaphysical questions in philosophy of religion, namely, “Is there a God?” There are only two possible direct answers to this question: “yes”, which is theism, and “no”, which is atheism. Answers like “I don’t know”, “no one knows”, “I don’t care”, “an affirmative answer has never been established”, or “the question is meaningless” are not directanswers to this question."


This is a very clear explanation of why atheism is, indeed, a position. It's not simply a psychological state, it's a metaphysical view that the unvierse is absent gods, opposed to theism being 1+ existing god. Further, atheism doesn't exist in a vaccuum. The second you get to morality, epistemology, materialism, and so on the more defense the position needs.

In no other cases do we accept a position that does not need defense and support, so why do some do so with atheism? Even worse, why not just defend your atheism if you can?

A great example is being told "you don't need to defend/support being an abigfootist." That's ... That's not true. If you think Bigfoot is fiction you need reason to think so or we shouldn't seriously consider your position. For instance - "I don't believe because the video evidence was shown to be a man in a monkey suit". That's a reason one can defend for holding their position. If you disagree, please share other positions outside of atheism that one can accept without reasons or evidence. Can anyone claim any position for any reason and it should be accepted, or is it special pleading?

Why do I think atheism has taken to this? Burden of proof games. The idea that any position can be accepted without needing to support it is absurd and dangerous. There is no "burden of proof," anyone who has a position needs to defend it. Ask yourself: if you don't have evidence and arguments to believe something, and can't / aren't willing to defend it... Is it really a worthwhile position?

I love this post. It's an excellent argument.

However, atheism is a pretty strong position. There is no acceptable universally agreeable evidence for the existence of God. And there is certainly no acceptable universally agreeable evidence for an Abrahamic type God. As far as I can tell Jesus, that is a personal God, is nothing more than an imaginary friend.

The way you are thinking about atheism is often put forth by theists. Here is how atheist think about atheism:

"Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods."

What is Atheism? | American Atheists

The atheist position is NOT a denial of God, it's an affirmation there is no need for the word God because there is no evidence to support such and idea. Until you provide evidence for the existence of God, then the word God is meaningless drivel.

However, however, there is hope for theists in the face of such a strong convincing iron clad argument from atheists that there is no need to have the word God. It comes down the core idea of having faith in God. Faith in the existence of a particular type of God is an assumption. It is an axiom of a belief system. As an axiom, it is accepted as being true without any proof.

So the question then becomes why is your faith in God so weak that you give atheists the time of day? The Japanese have a saying, "The first person to raise their voice in an argument, loses." Saying anything at all about atheism is an admission of failure of faith in God. There's just no other way to think about it. If your faith in God is strong, then atheists are irrelevant and ignored because they are all just parts of God's bigger picture and purpose for our lives.
 
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dfnj

Well-Known Member
I think God is real in people's minds. A manifestation of ones personality.

God can be real in that context.

I agree. In the layers of consciousness of our minds, there's a semantic boundary to our thoughts. We can feel the edge of this boundary in our minds. What we feel beyond the edge of the boundary which is represented by the word God and is pretty much our experience of God. Without the semantic boundary, that is nothingness as an experience, none of our words would have any meanings. All meaning comes from having a reference to the boundary. Without the boundary there would be no Unity of opposites, hence no meaning to any of our thoughts.

Unity of opposites - Wikipedia
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods). [...]

“Is there a God?” There are only two possible direct answers to this question: “yes”, which is theism, and “no”, which is atheism. Answers like “I don’t know”, “no one knows”, “I don’t care”, “an affirmative answer has never been established”, or “the question is meaningless” are not directanswers to this question."
How can 'The question is meaningless' not be a direct answer to the question 'Is there a god?'

What other direct answer is there to a meaningless question?

I've asked here and elsewhere, What is a real god, one with objective existence, not imaginary? The answer needs to be sufficient for us to distinguish any real suspect that is a god from any other real suspect.

But no one here, and no one that I've found elsewhere, has an answer to that question. Thus to this point all the evidence suggests there's no such definition, Thus 'God' as a purported element of reality is meaningless.

So what other direct answer can I make to the question 'Does God exist?'

Or am I mistaken, and all believers openly acknowledge that God exists only in the imagination of individuals? In which case the direct answer is, Yes, there are as many Gods as individuals.
 
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