rosends
Well-Known Member
the Gittin 57 quote is the last item discussed on the page -- scroll down
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If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?
- Thread starter rubi
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- christ christainity debate
the Gittin 57 quote is the last item discussed on the page -- scroll down
rubi
Member
In Genesis 3:14 God is cursing the serpent contradicting your theory. additionally, it was God who promised Avraham the holy land and it was he who got the people of Israel out of Egypt to Mount Sinai and told us 613 commandments, which as I was told, Christ was not objecting to them or telling his followers this commandments were the word Satan. Also, I do recall the first commandment of the ten commandments Exodus 20:2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." in this phrase, God identified by his name. Judaism does not believe in two gods
Little Nipper
Member
Dear Rudi,
I don't know what I'm getting myself into; however, I take it that you wish an honest Christian perspective. I will attempt with the LORD's help to provide you with a clear understanding from both the OLD and NEW Testaments. Firstly, I understand GOD to be ONE GOD. This I take to be a GODHEAD formulated as THREE eternal and coequal beings, who in fact are in full agreement with each other and committed to each other. They share in every virtue and together THEY are TOTAL GOD. This essence is entirely and eternally unique in every way; however, GOD does provide illustrations of HIS nature in HIS creation. One would be the EGG. An egg is made up of a shell, egg white, and the yoke. Together they are "egg." Separately, each is "egg". Each part has an ultimate purpose, while each supports the whole EGG. Humans are also triune in nature. Each possesses a body, soul, and spirit. The body is that which everyone sees. The soul is that thriving entity that make me - me and you - you. And our spirit is the part that is our motivational nature. What we want and what we do is manipulated by our spirit.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
A Christian should see this as GOD interacting with HIS inner being ---in HIS triunity to establish humanity. I've often heard Jews interpret this to be a revelation of ALMIGHTY GOD and absolute power, and as I can see that point; however, this revelation seems to be revealing so much more than that. GOD isn't lonely. GOD is capable of sustaining eternal love.
Bereshis 1:26-28
26 And G-d said, Let Us make man in Our tzelem, after Our demut: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon ha’aretz (the earth).
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Little Nipper
Member
Please consider along with the above Colossians 1:1-29
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Little Nipper
Member
It is apparent that the Father is invisible and directs what is to occur and when. The MESSIAH/CHRIST is the visible creative force. And the HOLY SPIRIT is the motivational.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, you believe in predestination? If that's the case, then anything I do wrong I can blame God for?
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
@Little Nipper -
Since the so-called Orthodox Jewish Bible is not Jewish, let alone Orthodox, you might want to quit while you’re behind and not quote from it further.
Since the so-called Orthodox Jewish Bible is not Jewish, let alone Orthodox, you might want to quit while you’re behind and not quote from it further.
Little Nipper
Member
I feel that a NEW TESTAMENT that reveals key words in Hebrew is helpful to understanding what a literal translation is and brings a clearer understanding of the MESSIAH/CHRIST. As for being behind, it would seem to depend upon whom one places his faith and trust.
Little Nipper
Member
I believe that GOD is fully aware of what everyone is thinking and planning to do. And if something is going against GOD divine will, HE will step in. One cannot blame GOD for foreknowing what one's intentions are. As for predestination, GOD predestined that both you and I would be born by allowing sin to occur. The only reason the two of us exist is on account that Adam and Eve sinned. If they had not sinned, our existence would be in doubt, as we were born in sin.
It's my understanding that Phillip E. Goble's "The Orthodox Jewish Bible" is liberally sprinkled with Hebrew and Yiddish terms in order to add some flavor of "authenticity" to its basic purpose of converting Jews to Christianity.
Sooo many Yiddish terms in that thing...
One question: Did Jesus speak Yiddish? Who knew!
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't believe that because it puts God in the position of creating evil with some people per Calvinism. And the question of God being omniscient is very problematic.
Also, I do not believe Adam & Eve were real people but are symbolic in the context of myth [story teaching basic beliefs & morals].
Little Nipper
Member
I feel the intent is not to convert Jews but to introduce Jews to the MESSIAH whom they are still waiting the arrival of. As for Yiddish, Jesus apparently spoke Aramaic --- the common language of that time. Though JESUS did speak to the teachers of the LAW in the temple at Jerusalem at the age of 12, and astounded them with HIS knowledge --- so HE would have spoken and read Hebrew also in order to read scripture and explain it.
Aramaic is clearly not Yiddish, and there's something farshtunken in that innocently claimed intent merely "to introduce Jews to the MESSIAH..."
rosends
Well-Known Member
We have been introduced and we threw him to the curb even before he died, all those years ago.
I think most people forget that almost all of the NT was written by Jewish people who understood the meaning of the TaNaKh and applied it as such.
Little Nipper
Member
What might appear as "Nasty" to some can be a poignant expression of hope for others.
Little Nipper
Member
And GOD allowed the Romans to destroy their temple built by Herod as I believe a direct result. It must be understood that nearly all Apostles and most of the disciples were Jews.
Joseph of Arimathea was a biblical figure who played an important role in the burial of Jesus Christ. His account can be found in each of the four Gospels: Matthew 27:57–60; Mark 15:42–46; Luke 23:50–53; and John 19:38–42. He is called “Joseph of Arimathea” because “he came from the Judean town of Arimathea” (Luke 23:51) We do know that Joseph was actually a part of the Council, or Sanhedrin who "threw Jesus to the curb."
rosends
Well-Known Member
if you are going to make cases from the gospels, about which I don't care, those cases will not be really useful. The temples were destroyed for other reasons, not Jesus.
Jedster
Flying through space
@Rachel Rugelach
I came across quite a few "Messianic Jews" when I was living in London. Many of them would mix in with elderly Jews, carry a copy of The Jewish Chronicle( called the JC..ironic :>)), wear kippot and talk in English with a few Yiddish words dispersed. Many would claim to be born Jews(they were not). I found their whole approach disingenuous.
They seem to think they are 'special Christians' because of their claimed Jewish birth.
I was once introduced to one of their leaders, who refused to speak to me unless I said "Jesus is Lord". What a crock of crap.
I much prefer real Christians who are up front about their faith.
Anyway, Shabbat Shalom
I came across quite a few "Messianic Jews" when I was living in London. Many of them would mix in with elderly Jews, carry a copy of The Jewish Chronicle( called the JC..ironic :>)), wear kippot and talk in English with a few Yiddish words dispersed. Many would claim to be born Jews(they were not). I found their whole approach disingenuous.
They seem to think they are 'special Christians' because of their claimed Jewish birth.
I was once introduced to one of their leaders, who refused to speak to me unless I said "Jesus is Lord". What a crock of crap.
I much prefer real Christians who are up front about their faith.
Anyway, Shabbat Shalom
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
My initial response, post #407, was not intended as an attack on Christianity. It was simply a curt dismissal of the volume from which you chose to quote. If you believe that the CJB was not published with an intent to convert Jews you have obviously not read Goble nor been to the website of the organization behind the CJB’s publication.