• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

If evidence for god is in abundance, why is faith necessary?

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Perhaps God will be found only by the people who will be with them in heaven.
The rest of us are for naught if we disrespect God's arrangement.
Those who genuinely researched God and His Message, but came up blank will I believe, have a chance to put things right after death. Those who openly mock and are hostile will offer their kidneys to return to Earth and make amends. Sadly, there is no going back, but even for them Hell may not be eternal.

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

And return [in repentance] to your Lord and submit to Him before the punishment comes upon you; then you will not be helped.

And follow the best of what was revealed to you from your Lord before the punishment comes upon you suddenly while you do not perceive,

Lest a soul should say, "Oh [how great is] my regret over what I neglected in regard to Allah and that I was among the mockers."

Or [lest] it say, "If only Allah had guided me, I would have been among the righteous."

Or [lest] it say when it sees the punishment, "If only I had another turn so I could be among the doers of good."

But yes, there had come to you My verses, but you denied them and were arrogant, and you were among the disbelievers.


Even tyrants are moved with fear when they are reminded:


Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You are assuming the laws of thermodynamics have existed for infinite time. Not so, the laws of thermodynamics (including the second law which encompasses causality) did not begin to coalesce until 10e-34 of a second after the big bang.
How do the Laws of Thermodynamics, (enclosed system) affect GOD who is outside of the Universe?

The Cambrian explosion lasted 541 million years. That is more than 8 times longer than the time the dinosaurs went extinct. That is one very slow poof.
Can you cite some evidence for that figure before I respond please.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
How do the Laws of Thermodynamics, (enclosed system) affect GOD who is outside of the Universe?

Can you cite some evidence for that figure before I respond please.

You have evidenced of your god being outside the universe? And the point was causality of god as your argument implied.

My error, the Cambrian period was about 541/3 million years ago and lasted about 55 million years. Still a long time in evolution. Homo habilis only appeared 2.5 million years ago and look at us now.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
If the world began to agree with the Bible it would not be ruled by satan, which you don't believe.
I don't believe in an incompetent God who can't hold on to one tiny planet, no.

The problem here becomes, nothing ever comes into being.
I don't see why that's a problem.

Sorry but the Cambrian explosions proves many different species appeared in a relatively short period of time.
Yes, it took millions and millions of years. If a soil layer is an inch thick, it doesn't mean it only took an hour or something to get it that way.

Islam would spread around the World.
Any evangelistic religion wants that kind of thing. It's not a prophecy. It's a to-do list.

Islam would become the dominant Religion.
We'll see.

Also, dominant =/= "right".

Christians would follow a confused theology and fight amongst themselves until Judgement Day.
There is no violence in Muslim areas?

Poor barefooted Bedouins would compete with each other to build the tallest buildings.
Turns out, being poor sucks. And?

People wouldn't leave their homes to visit the market places, yet they would still be able to shop.
Where are the quotes for this kind of thing?

The Muslims, though numerous like the stars in Heaven would be picked off and subdued by non Muslims.
You really enjoy having your cake and eating it too. First it was my dogs were led by instinct while being taught and now it's "Islam will be globally dominant while being eradicated". Make up your mind.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I asked this question on the atheist forum of which I am a member; yes, we get theists who join the forum for debate all the time, we even have some years-long theistic members who still post there.

Anywho, onto the actual subject in relation to the title of the thread, verbatim:

By any logical standard if there was any evidence for the existence of god, that would make faith irrelevant.

That faith is needed in the religious community reasonably means that zero evidence is in existence to prove god is real.
Faith doesn't become irrelevant if god were to suddenly appear and tell us his grand scheme. There would still be faith that at the God had any good intentions for us and it wasn't planning on feeding us to its sharks in the ocean.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Logically from the Abrahamic worldview, there cannot be any right or wrong, as it is whatever God's whim says it is at the time.
GOD tells us what is wrong:

Do not murder, do not steal, do not rape, do not deal with each other unjustly, do not give money on interest, do not drink alcohol etc

The commandments in the Qur'an are set for ever and not due to change. Punishments like stoning and cutting of hands for theft should be viewed as the ultimate deterrents rather than barbaric punishments.

Before you point to groups like isis, you will have to show their understanding is correct from the Qur'an and Hadiths.

Humans learn what is approved in society as well. There is really no difference.
The humans in nazi Germany approved of genocide and hatred. Therefore unless our morale guidance comes from a external higher all knowing source, we are prone to making devastating errors of judgement.

Also, you need to make up your mind whether my dogs act on instinct, which I can't control, or my moral lessons, which I can.
Everything from Nature to the Animal Kingdom has knowledge of the Creator:

The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts [ Allah ] by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving. Qur'an 17:44

Only mankind has been given higher understanding, and gifted with higher intellect and reasoning skills. In this regard, your dogs being limited can be taught many things by you as their master.

Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills.
Qur'an 22:18



From your CNN link:
How are the Australians the first civilization when the article says they also came from Africa, where people already were?

Just seems like a poorly worded article, to me.

Yes, not sure about that one from CNN and their choice of wording. Australia being a Island would mean the Aborigines must have branched off from their African Cousins at some point in History.

"According to a new study published this week in the journal Nature, researchers conducting the first-ever genomic study of indigenous Australians have found evidence of a single “out of Africa” migration for modern humans and confirmed a long-standing claim that Australia’s Aboriginal civilization is the oldest on the planet, dating back some 50,000 years."

DNA Study Finds Aboriginal Australians World’s Oldest Civilization


Ultimately theists have good reasons to believe in a uncaused being that has sent revelation to mankind. People say, ok but which being is this? to which He responds:

Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. [If there had been], then each deity would have taken what it created, and some of them would have sought to overcome others. Exalted is Allah above what they describe [concerning Him]. Qur'an 23:91

Chaos would have ensued had there been more than ONE GOD.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't see why that's a problem.
It's like being on the top floor of a building that's on fire, you ring for help and the operator replies they have to get consent from their superior before dispatching the fire and rescue services, their superior replies, they need consent from their superiors and this goes on and on infinitely. Logically that permission will never come, and no one sent to the rescue. For this reason, we say GOD is the uncaused first cause from which everything we know of originated from.

Yes, it took millions and millions of years. If a soil layer is an inch thick, it doesn't mean it only took an hour or something to get it that way.
They were all the result of a Creative Designer, any other theory is mathematically impossible.


Any evangelistic religion wants that kind of thing. It's not a prophecy. It's a to-do list.

Turns out, being poor sucks. And?
You have to remember this was revealed in the 7th Century when the Bedouin Arabs dwelt in tents, moving freely in search of water.

5nytt.jpg


This prophecy would have meant absolutely nothing to them 1,400 years ago, yet today we see Arabs competing for the tallest sky scrapers:

List of tallest buildings in Dubai - Wikipedia

Jeddah Tower - Wikipedia

You really enjoy having your cake and eating it too. First it was my dogs were led by instinct while being taught and now it's "Islam will be globally dominant while being eradicated". Make up your mind.
I didn't sat Islam would be eradicated, just the Muslims will be under the feet of their enemies, like we saw when Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Somalia were bombed. Countries like Egypt and Jordan helping enemies suppress Muslims.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You have evidenced of your god being outside the universe? And the point was causality of god as your argument implied.
He tells us in the Qur'an, He is 'above' His Creation, all 7 Heavens of it, with this Universe all contained within the First Heaven.

My error, the Cambrian period was about 541/3 million years ago and lasted about 55 million years. Still a long time in evolution. Homo habilis only appeared 2.5 million years ago and look at us now.
See the video to my reply to Kelly, 'What Is The Probability of Life?' >>>>>>> Absolutely not possible in that time span.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
He tells us in the Qur'an, He is 'above' His Creation, all 7 Heavens of it, with this Universe all contained within the First Heaven.

See the video to my reply to Kelly, 'What Is The Probability of Life?' >>>>>>> Absolutely not possible in that time span.

The Qur'an is a 1300+ year old book, mostly cloned from a bronze age book. As yet no god has shown him/her self. Leaving belief down to solely faith.

However, as far as it is understood, our universe is a closed system and as far as i am aware the Qur'an does not specify where these heaven are supposed to be. The location, even the actual number is down to interpretation.


Not seen the video, no link, but i surmise from your claim that it's total creationist bull. Life occurred on this planet in a flash, from none life of inert chemicals to first life.

As for 55 million years, under conditions of high oxygenation and solar radiation. Diversity is inevitable.

Its only been 65 million years since the demise of dinosaurs. Only very few animals exist now that existed then, crocodile family, horseshoe crab, razor clam, some fish species etc. All the rest have evolved since then. That's 65 million years. 55 million is a large percentage of that time.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Plus I don't believe Mormonism or scientology has ever been indicted in a financial scandal.
Scientology is the financial scandal.

Do not murder, do not steal, do not rape, do not deal with each other unjustly, do not give money on interest, do not drink alcohol etc
Until He tells you to do those very things, though.

Punishments like stoning and cutting of hands for theft should be viewed as the ultimate deterrents rather than barbaric punishments.
There are times I sympathize, but they are still barbaric.

Before you point to groups like isis, you will have to show their understanding is correct from the Qur'an and Hadiths.
I don't really care about ISIS. They are a bunch of violent children pretending to be adults.

Therefore unless our morale guidance comes from a external higher all knowing source, we are prone to making devastating errors of judgement.
We have nothing written by any higher source, though. We have only human claims of it.

Only mankind has been given higher understanding, and gifted with higher intellect and reasoning skills.
I dunno. I've met nonhumans much smarter than humans. :p

"According to a new study published this week in the journal Nature, researchers conducting the first-ever genomic study of indigenous Australians have found evidence of a single “out of Africa” migration for modern humans and confirmed a long-standing claim that Australia’s Aboriginal civilization is the oldest on the planet, dating back some 50,000 years."
But if they are from Africa, that makes the Africans the earliest civilizations. What we see here, I think, is an irrational need by the authors to deny Africa any sense of accomplishment.

It's like being on the top floor of a building that's on fire, you ring for help and the operator replies they have to get consent from their superior before dispatching the fire and rescue services, their superior replies, they need consent from their superiors and this goes on and on infinitely. Logically that permission will never come, and no one sent to the rescue. For this reason, we say GOD is the uncaused first cause from which everything we know of originated from.
All those people who declined to do it themselves will die along with those they condemned. Your analogy doesn't work because if a tenant, not a person of authority, called 911 and got the fire department out there, the "God" in this scenario wouldn't have done anything, just the "rabble". I love God but He has to accept responsibility for the fact lots of people die waiting for Him to "cause" something.

They were all the result of a Creative Designer, any other theory is mathematically impossible.
Given how often things go wrong with "creation", I doubt the IQ of said "Creator."

You have to remember this was revealed in the 7th Century when the Bedouin Arabs dwelt in tents, moving freely in search of water.
My point still stands. It's an evangelical religion, so spreading is its JOB.

It's like saying that I will give my patients medication at work is a prophecy. No, it's not: IT IS MY JOB DESCRIPTION.

This prophecy would have meant absolutely nothing to them 1,400 years ago, yet today we see Arabs competing for the tallest sky scrapers:
Who cares, though? Obviously God stopped caring after the Tower of Babel. The reality is, if you can't build out, build up (or down).

I didn't sat Islam would be eradicated, just the Muslims will be under the feet of their enemies, like we saw when Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Somalia were bombed. Countries like Egypt and Jordan helping enemies suppress Muslims.
Then how is Islam dominant like the prophecy? You can't have it both ways.

He tells us in the Qur'an, He is 'above' His Creation
Try to think outside the box for a minute and come up with evidence of this OUTSIDE the Quran.

See the video to my reply to Kelly, 'What Is The Probability of Life?' >>>>>>> Absolutely not possible in that time span.
LOL, but poofing an entire universe in 6 days (which wouldn't be possible anyway because of what "day" actually means) is possible?

Its only been 65 million years since the demise of dinosaurs.
And I've been crying ever since. They were God's true masterpieces. :p
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
And I've been crying ever since. They were God's true masterpieces. :p

I don't think any god was involved but they were truly magnificent and diverse beasts. The birds of the sky are just a small example

And I'm pretty sure our kitten is descented from velociraptor
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I asked this question on the atheist forum of which I am a member; yes, we get theists who join the forum for debate all the time, we even have some years-long theistic members who still post there.

Anywho, onto the actual subject in relation to the title of the thread, verbatim:

By any logical standard if there was any evidence for the existence of god, that would make faith irrelevant.

That faith is needed in the religious community reasonably means that zero evidence is in existence to prove god is real.
It makes more sense if you think of "faith" in the sense of loyalty or trust ("faithfulness")... which is how the term was originally used, IMO. It was only when God's existence stopped being taken as a given and people started asking for justification for belief in God that "faith" morphed into "belief without rational justification."
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
I asked this question on the atheist forum of which I am a member; yes, we get theists who join the forum for debate all the time, we even have some years-long theistic members who still post there.

Anywho, onto the actual subject in relation to the title of the thread, verbatim:

By any logical standard if there was any evidence for the existence of god, that would make faith irrelevant.

That faith is needed in the religious community reasonably means that zero evidence is in existence to prove god is real.

Blind faith is faith which does not recognize itself as such, as an ex-atheist I understand this now
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe faith is necessary to believe the evidence. You would be srprised how many people will deny what happens before their very eyes.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I asked this question on the atheist forum of which I am a member; yes, we get theists who join the forum for debate all the time, we even have some years-long theistic members who still post there.

Anywho, onto the actual subject in relation to the title of the thread, verbatim:

By any logical standard if there was any evidence for the existence of god, that would make faith irrelevant.

That faith is needed in the religious community reasonably means that zero evidence is in existence to prove god is real.

Here’s a logical standard: that complex information systems don’t arise by themselves; it requires an intelligent person, or many working together, to design them.

Then, there is the sophisticated yet mindless, well-equipped, perfectly situated and departmentalized environment complete with its own systemic, self-cleaning and replenishing cycles that help to nurture these extremely varied organic-based (fragile), instinctive procreating information systems, enabling them to thrive everywhere within it.

Many thinking people have recognized it, like Boyle and Newton. Even Einstein saw it. So did Flew, eventually.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
It is interesting, if you apply "laws of probability" to the study of the universe, you'll find it is impossible to explain its existence with scientific explanations. What are the laws of probability for "physical laws" evolving from the Big Bang. And then there are all those species on earth with functioning organs, etc. Was that an accident of nature? You can go on and on with examples of how impossible it would be for "accidental occurrences." Laws of probability will get you every time.

There is only one explanation for the universe. God did it!


I see, so you've looked at how complex the universe is and you've 'calculated' that it's just TOO IMPROBABLE that it could have occurred by chance. I'm curious, what calculations have you done to determine the probability that an all-powerful being that exists beyond space and time created the universe? And how exactly did you determine that the latter is MORE probable than the former?

And I really think you need to educate yourself on how probabilities work.
 
Top