If Evolution Is Wrong ... Why Does Creationism Win By Default!?

[First Baseman]

Maybe it's "creators"?

 

[metis]

And you have some evidence that it can't be? Have you actually ever studied theology?

 

[McBell]

Either there is a creator or there isn't. You can't have it both ways.

False dichotomy

That the whole known universe is nothing more than one of gods bowel movements, flushed down the toilet and completely forgotten by god.

 

[Zosimus]

False dichotomy

Uhm... no it isn't. It's called the law of the excluded middle.

 

[McBell]

Uhm... no it isn't. It's called the law of the excluded middle.

Only if you are playing semantics games.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

False dichotomy

Far be it from me to take the side of the creationist/theist ... But ... Not necessarily, I don't think.

At first glance, I see your point; Law of the Excluded Middle.

But what about the Law of Identity?

Should such a being exist capable of creation; then either that being is a creator (thus, this being creates things) or that being is not a creator (does not create things).

The false dichotomy would be, "Either Evolution or Creation" as this would exclude the middle (such as "intelligent design"; the creator got things rolling, is thus a creator, though not necessarily our creator); or, "Either this being created us according to YEC myth, or he didn't create us at all" (excluding the middle that the creator designed evolution which became the life we see).

Of course, there is no evidence to support such a being; but for sake of discussion?

 

[McBell]

Far be it from me to take the side of the creationist/theist ... But ... Not necessarily, I don't think.

At first glance, I see your point; Law of the Excluded Middle.

But what about the Law of Identity?

Should such a being exist capable of creation; then either that being is a creator (thus, this being creates things) or that being is not a creator (does not create things).

The false dichotomy would be, "Either Evolution or Creation" as this would exclude the middle (such as "intelligent design"; the creator got things rolling, is thus a creator, though not necessarily our creator); or, "Either this being created us according to YEC myth, or he didn't create us at all" (excluding the middle that the creator designed evolution which became the life we see).

Of course, there is no evidence to support such a being; but for sake of discussion?

The false dichotomy lies in the belief that the universe was either intentionally created or not.
that is the reason for the argument, to "prove" the existence of their god.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

So in other words ... the universe could have been unintentionally created; thus "either the universe was intentionally created or not" is a false dichotomy as it excludes the middle. Am I understanding your claim correctly?

 

[Zosimus]

The false dichotomy lies in the belief that the universe was either intentionally created or not.
that is the reason for the argument, to "prove" the existence of their god.

This is not a false dichotomy.

Some people claim that a creator exists (or should I say Creator) with all the properties that a creator would have.

Now, logically, either a creator exists... or it's not the case that a creator exists. By adding in whether the universe was created by this creator or whether the creation was intentional is skewing the argument because you are concatenating extra premises to the argument that did not exist in the original. For example, the claim that the creator intentionally created the universe is really three statements:

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created the universe.
C) This creator did so intentionally.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

This is not a false dichotomy.

Yes. It is. It could be that the creator didn't create on purpose. It could be that the creator created only part of whatever and the rest grew out of that original creation, thus not all that is, was directly created, by this creator.

Now, logically, either a creator exists... or it's not the case that a creator exists.

Agreed!

By adding in whether the universe was created by this creator or whether the creation was intentional is skewing the argument because you are concatenating extra premises to the argument that did not exist in the original.

No. We are not. You're not paying attention.

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created the universe.
C) This creator did so intentionally.

Logically speaking,no.

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created the universe.
C) This creator did so intentionally.
D) Creationism wins.

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created the universe.
C) This creator didn't do it intentionally.
D) Creationism is partially correct.

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created a singularity.
C) This singularity caused creation; thus the creator DIDN'T create the universe.
D) Creationism loses.

You connect things that are not necessarily connected. You seem to have a habit of doing this.

 

[Skwim]

Yes. It is. It could be that the creator didn't create on purpose. It could be that the creator created only part of whatever and the rest grew out of that original creation, thus not all that is, was directly created, by this creator.



Agreed!



No. We are not. You're not paying attention.



Logically speaking,no.

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created the universe.
C) This creator did so intentionally.
D) Creationism wins.

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created the universe.
C) This creator didn't do it intentionally.
D) Creationism is partially correct.

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created a singularity.
C) This singularity caused creation; thus the creator DIDN'T create the universe.
D) Creationism loses.

You connect things that are not necessarily connected. You seem to have a habit of doing this.

Who are you addressing?

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Who are you addressing?

Zoismos on his statement:

This is not a false dichotomy.

which was referring to this statement:

The false dichotomy lies in the belief that the universe was either intentionally created or not. that is the reason for the argument, to "prove" the existence of their god.

 

[Zosimus]

Yes. It is. It could be that the creator didn't create on purpose. It could be that the creator created only part of whatever and the rest grew out of that original creation, thus not all that is, was directly created, by this creator.

Agreed!

No. We are not. You're not paying attention.

No, you're not paying attenton.

I refer you back to Mestemia's post in which he claimed that it was a false dichotomy. Go back and read it again. He quoted First Baseman as saying, "Either there is a creator or there isn't. You can't have it both ways." Next Mestemia claimed that this statement was a false dichotomy.

Well, that statement is not a false dichotomy. It's a simple statement of the law of the excluded middle – nothing more.

You connect things that are not necessarily connected. You seem to have a habit of doing this.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Go back and read the post. If you can't understand it, have your mommy help you.

 

[First Baseman]

And you have some evidence that it can't be? Have you actually ever studied theology?

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Go back and read the post. If you can't understand it, have your mommy help you.

So, slinging stones now? Okay. I'm tough and can take it. When one results to insults, its usually from the frustration of losing a debate.

I refer you back to Mestemia's post in which he claimed that it was a false dichotomy.

And Mestemia clarified his statement. Here, let me find that and post it for you; since you missed it:

The false dichotomy lies in the belief that the universe was either intentionally created or not. that is the reason for the argument, to "prove" the existence of their god.

 

[metis]

Again, a point that is being missed here is why cannot there supposedly be multiple "creators"? Why assume there's only one or none? How can the concept of polytheism be supposedly eliminated? [btw, I'm not a believer in polytheistim myself-- see my signature at the bottom of this post]

My point is that some here are making assumptions one way or the other without the benefit of evidence to support their positions. If one takes the position that X must be the cause, then other possibilities must be discounted first.

 

[Zosimus]

So, slinging stones now? Okay. I'm tough and can take it. When one results to insults, its usually from the frustration of losing a debate.

And Mestemia clarified his statement. Here, let me find that and post it for you; since you missed it:

Mestemia said: "The false dichotomy lies in the belief that the universe was either intentionally created or not"

This is not a false dichotomy. This is the law of the excluded middle. Either the universe was intentionally created or it is not the case that the universe was intentionally created. This is one of the most basic rules of logic. All meaningful sentences are either true or false. There is no middle ground.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created the universe.
C) This creator did so intentionally.

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created the universe.
C) This creator didn't do it intentionally.

A) A creator exists.
B) This creator created a singularity.
C) This singularity caused creation; thus the creator DIDN'T create the universe.

This is not a false dichotomy. This is the law of the excluded middle. Either the universe was intentionally created or it is not the case that the universe was intentionally created. This is one of the most basic rules of logic. All meaningful sentences are either true or false. There is no middle ground.

I see. I can agree with that; provided that we can capitulate that if there were such a creator, the creation need not be "intentional".

Logically speaking.

 

[Zosimus]

Agreed. Either there is a creator or not. If a creator exists, then either it intentionally created or it didn't intentionally create.

 

[Draka]

Why do you keep doing that? You do realize that there are creation myths that have a mother and a father deity don't you? Just because your preferred mythology has one creator doesn't mean that's the only way one can be thought of.