If Evolution Were True

[sandy whitelinger]

Its called Algebra p=1/q=0 - p+q=1

The world makes perfect sense now.

 

[herushura]

The world makes perfect sense now.

I know, some Humans are born with no brain or Prefrontal cortex's

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I know, some Humans are born with no brain or Prefrontal cortex's

Hey, I may be a narrow-minded biblist but I do believe I have one of those things you said.

 

[herushura]

Hey, I may be a narrow-minded biblist but I do believe I have one of those things you said.

Profrontal Cotex is the part of the brain that gives us superior intelligence over other animals.

 

[Autodidact]

sandy:

Here you say that evolution is confined to within species:

Okay, step by-step, here we go:
God "poofed" all of the various forms of life. He also created them with the ability to evolve within species. I do not believe that species change past that. And I missed the proof of genus change. Humor Jethro for me and give it to me again please.

Here you say that new species do evolve:

O.K., so you agree that new species arise from existing species by descent with modification plus natural selection.

Sure, we've been breeding dogs for a long time.

These statements seem to me to directly contradict each other.

So which is it that now you're saying you never said?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

sandy:

Here you say that evolution is confined to within species:

Here you say that new species do evolve:



These statements seem to me to directly contradict each other.

So which is it that now you're saying you never said?

I see your point. I misspoke. We get new species. It is limited to that.

 

[painted wolf]

What about Genus?

Can we get new Genera? For example could a Fox and a Wolf have a common ancestor?
A walrus and a Sea lion?

wa:do

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What about Genus?

Can we get new Genera? For example could a Fox and a Wolf have a common ancestor?
A walrus and a Sea lion?

wa:do

P Wolf, while your here can you help me understand post #239 here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/77078-if-evolution-were-true-24.html

 

[RemnanteK]

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.~TJ

I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. ~TJ

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~TJ

If God is just, I tremble for my country. ~TJ

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. ~TJ

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. ~TJ

The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. ~TJ

Thomas Jefferson rocks!
I own all of his books, and he is a great inspirational writer about government and religion.
He believed that to be right you must prove to yourself with knowledge and work what you profess to believe.
To believe what other men (religions or scientists) without proof you yourself have found is ignorant.
Blindly following another's opinions is the work of a lazy and foolish mind.
I have a great respect for his ability to find the truth out for HIMSELF.

 

[Autodidact]

Nope. Didn't say that.

You know, kingdom, family, class, order, genus, species. I guess I wasn't clear enough as to what I was looking for. Show me your best line of evedence that one genus changed into another genus. Something like here's a fossil of plant or animal A. Here's AB. Here's B.

But do you understand what I'm saying? It never goes genus to genus, always species to species. Think of it like a tree, but in time instead of space. It's always a little twig (species) when it starts growing out of the existing branch. It's only much later that it grows into a bigger branch (genus.) Basically, species + species + species + species = genus. So I can easily show you species => species. For genus => genus, you have to do the math and add it up. My question to you is, what evidence do you have that prevents species + species from adding up to genus?

Let me rephrase that and see if it makes sense. I think the best evidence is just to understand what the Bible says happens.

You mean that God magically poofed each species into existence around 6000 years ago, that God created one man out of dirt and one woman out of his rib, each of them with no parents, and then global flood, ark, all that? Is that your position? Or are you saying that's now what the Bible says. I'd have to say no, this doesn't make sense in light of what else you've been saying, it only confuses things further.

Wow.

I know, cool, isn't it, once you understand it?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

But do you understand what I'm saying? It never goes genus to genus, always species to species. Think of it like a tree, but in time instead of space. It's always a little twig (species) when it starts growing out of the existing branch. It's only much later that it grows into a bigger branch (genus.) Basically, species + species + species + species = genus. So I can easily show you species => species. For genus => genus, you have to do the math and add it up. My question to you is, what evidence do you have that prevents species + species from adding up to genus?

Ok, show me the evidence (like fossil evidence) of any species you choose and the progression to a different genus. For example using your math:
Species (of genus such and such)+ species + species + species = new genus

 

[Autodidact]

Have you read these books?

No, my education is limited. My general position is that I understand the scientific method, so in any scientific field in which I am not an expert at Ph.D level, which is of course everything, I accept the consensus of the experts, since I don't have enough knowledge or arrogance to challenge the combined knowledge of the world's scientists. That applies to evolution, electricity, atomic theory, physics, all that stuff. If the world's biologists have been doing the math for a hundred years, and figured out there's plenty of time, I accept that until someone shows me with concrete numbers that they're wrong. Got any?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

And while youse guys are eddicatin me about evolution can you help me understand why it took a billion or so years to go from a one-celled organism to a two-celled organism?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

No, my education is limited. My general position is that I understand the scientific method, so in any scientific field in which I am not an expert at Ph.D level, which is of course everything, I accept the consensus of the experts, since I don't have enough knowledge or arrogance to challenge the combined knowledge of the world's scientists. That applies to evolution, electricity, atomic theory, physics, all that stuff. If the world's biologists have been doing the math for a hundred years, and figured out there's plenty of time, I accept that until someone shows me with concrete numbers that they're wrong. Got any?

No one has given me any formulas as to how they reach the conclusion that there was enough time. How am I supposed to point out their errors?

You obviously just accept it on faith.

 

[Autodidact]

I went here.
Is there anything in the math that includes time? For example how long, on average, it takes for a new trait to emerge in a population?

? Again I don't understand your question in terms of evolution. A new trait could emerge in a single individual. How long to spread through a population will depend on how long to reproduce.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

? Again I don't understand your question in terms of evolution. A new trait could emerge in a single individual. How long to spread through a population will depend on how long to reproduce.

I would think that if science want to prove that there has been enough time for evolution to happen that somewhere along the line they figured out how long, on average, it would take for a new species to evolve from the first appearance of a new species until it evolves into another species.

Say the average was 5 minutes. There would have been plenty of time for all of life to come from a singe species.

Say it took a billion years. Well, there would only be a few species around today.

It would seem to me to be a fundamental concept in figuring out how long would be needed to account for all the species we have.

 

[Autodidact]

I would think that if science want to prove that there has been enough time for evolution to happen that somewhere along the line they figured out how long, on average, it would take for a new species to evolve from the first appearance of a new species until it evolves into another species.

I keep repeating myself. Science doesn't prove things; it relies on evidence.

Say the average was 5 minutes. There would have been plenty of time for all of life to come from a singe species.

Say it took a billion years. Well, there would only be a few species around today.

It would seem to me to be a fundamental concept in figuring out how long would be needed to account for all the species we have.

Yes, I agree. My understanding is that this math has been done again and again. This is the reason Darwin was dead in the water--Kelvin said 100 million years, and they knew that wasn't long enough. You need billions, not millions. Turned out Darwin was right--it's 4.56 billion, which is enough. I haven't found the calculations, although I know they have been done. I'll see what I can do.

And you were going to do the same for why there isn't enough time, remember.

Now, about that direct contradiction in your posts?

 

[Autodidact]

No one has given me any formulas as to how they reach the conclusion that there was enough time. How am I supposed to point out their errors?

You obviously just accept it on faith.

Well, faith in the sense of reasonable reliance on something that has demonstrated its effectiveness again and again, not in the sense of blind reliance despite the evidence. But you don't? When you're sick, how do you decide what treatment to take? You do the research from scratch, or rely on what's already been done? Before flying in an airplane, do you ask for the calculations on what keeps it aloft? Or do you rely on "faith"?

My point is that I'm consistent--I apply the same standards here as to other scientific issues. Do you?

You, on the other hand, automatically reject the same conclusion, also without seeing or understanding the calculations. You assume that thousands of scientists, using their best efforts for decades, trying to knock down the theory and failing to do so, are all wrong, and that you, who know nothing of the underlying math, are right. That's unwarranted faith--plus ignorance.

 

[painted wolf]

P Wolf, while your here can you help me understand post #239 here:

I can certainly give it a go.

I assume (I may be wrong) that you are looking for genus level changes in the fossil record.

Do you mind if I use horses as an example? The horse fossil record is quite nice and I can get decent pictures for you to look at. If not, I can try to keep with Canids. I'll use them to explain Genus.

Basically Genus arrive just like species do... with little changes, just built up over a bit more time.
For example the Red fox (vulpes vulpes) is a different genus than the Grey Fox (Urocyon cinereoargenteus). They are separated by genetics and by features of the skull, jaws, feet and other sundry bits as well as history. The American Vulpes foxes came over from Europe during the ice age. The Urocyon foxes have been here at least twice as long.
(fun fact: there are 17 genus of canids living today from 'foxes' to wolves. I put "fox" in quotes because some that are called foxes are actually closer in relation to some "dogs".)

So Genus is just a matter of degrees of separation. Where Species are like brothers and sisters, Genus are more like aunts and uncles. Family would include cousins and so on.

Hope this helps some.

wa:do
ps. p+q=1 because each is a % of a whole... so .4+.6=1 One being 100% of the population.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

No, my education is limited.

Why did you recommend those books then?