If God actually spoke to you, would you try to obey?

[dianaiad]

Riiight. I bet you are referring to Hitler's Nazis? Or Stalin's troops? Or perhaps Mao?

Got some bad news for ya. None of those were atheists.

Hitler was not. Stalin was during the time he made religion illegal. Mao absolutely was. Go look up history, Bob the unbeliever. Get your equivocation glasses off and LOOK.

Not all atheists are the extreme sort of which I spoke. Few are. However, SOME are and just because the rest are not does not mean that a few aren't.

Worse: None, regardless of their beliefs, did anything in the name OF atheism.

I'm sorry, Bob. When one does something for the purpose of getting rid of theism, it is in the 'name of atheism.' whether that specific phrase is used or not.

 

[dianaiad]

You think? I would say it were factual.

But your misrepresentation of the definition of agnostic does fit the bill of insulting.

No. it simply means that I disagree with the specific definition, slightly, since it's definite statement that 'agnostic' means that nobody can know anything about deity removes any possibility from the believing agnostic that there MIGHT be a God, but s/he hasn't seen any evidence for or against.

Those are slightly different ideas.

Oh, you go look up 'ignostic.' Believe me, I've had enough arguments with them to get that definition pounded into my head.

Simply disagreeing with someone is NOT insulting. Saying 'you are incorrect and this is why I think so" is not an insult.

Saying that you aren't worth talking to because you depend on 'lesser evidence' is. I disagreed with a dictionary definition and gave you my reasons. That was not an insult either to you or to the dictionary. Your dismissing me without even addressing the matter is.

 

[dianaiad]

Both Hitler and Stalin were Christian. Mao and Pol pot Buddhists with pol pot having a catholic schooling. Only Mao renounced his faith. Hitler firmly believed believed he did what he did in the name of god.

Or perhaps you meant different atheists that no one knows about?

I don't remember mentioning Hitler in my body count. In fact, Hitler used "Christianity" whenever it suited him. However, I'll use the argument I found here with him, as well. Hitler did not kill anybody in the name of God.

I just don't include his death count in the one I mentioned. Pol Pot never declared his atheism, but he made all theism...even the sort he was supposed to be associated with...illegal.

Stalin did all his murdering during a time when all religion was illegal in his nation, as well.

In fact, and you are quite free to look this up....there has never been an officially anti-theist (that's a form of atheism, in case you haven't figured that out...one cannot be anti-all theism unless one IS an atheist)...government that was not murderous to the nth degree.

Not. Even. One.

But I wasn't claiming that all atheists are anti-theists. They aren't.

I AM objecting to this claim that since 'atheists' are mostly not anti-theist, that none of them are.

I AM objecting to this assinine idea that because extreme theists and extreme atheists are alike in that neither group pay a whole lot of attention to actual logic and thought, that there isn't a huge middle ground on both sides that do.

you are claiming that I am attacking all atheists....when in reality, is is you folks who are claiming that all atheists are logical and all theists are not.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Hitler was not. .

Oh dear. Hitler wrote in his own personal diaries how he was doing the Christian God's Holy Works. Time and time again, he wrote that.

He put "god is with us" on his Special troups, the SS (only in German, obviously).

Hitler was not only a Theist? He fully believed he was a Christian too. So, apparently, did the Catholic Church of that day (this was before the atrocities came to light), and the Sitting Pope gave The Nazis his blessing. We have photographs of that ceremony.

History? Yeah-- you seem to have missed out...!

Stalin was during the time he made religion illegal. .

No again! You really need to pay attention: Stalin only ever outlawed CERTAIN GROUPS-- he kept Eastern Orthodox alive and well, and in fact Stalin was trained up to be a Priest in E.O.

Now to be sure, he was absolutely insane by any measure of that word. But there is no reason to think he repudiated all theism. Why would he allow Eastern Orthodox to thrive?

Mao absolutely was. .

.... NOT. He believed in Ancestor Worship-- the opposite of atheist.

Sheesh, but you could not possibly be MORE INCORRECT.

Go look up history, Bob the unbeliever. Get your equivocation glasses off and LOOK..

Silly person. You are Wrong. Again.

Not all atheists are the extreme sort of which I spoke. Few are. However, SOME are and just because the rest are not does not mean that a few aren't.
.

You were wrong then, you are wrong here, and you continue to be wrong.

Sad.

I'm sorry, Bob. When one does something for the purpose of getting rid of theism, it is in the 'name of atheism.' whether that specific phrase is used or not.

LMAO! Nope. Sorry, bub, that is NOT how it works!

Atheism? IS NOT A PHILOSOPHY, IT IS NOT A STANCE, IT IS NOT A RELIGION, IT IS NOT A REGIMEN. IT IS JUST AN ANSWER TO ONE QUESTION.

You are thinking of something ELSE: ANTI-THEISM, which IS a thing.

I'm beginning to doubt that you have EVER-EVER spoken with an actual atheist in the real world...!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don't remember mentioning Hitler in my body count. In fact, Hitler used "Christianity" whenever it suited him. However, I'll use the argument I found here with him, as well. Hitler did not kill anybody in the name of God..

Absolutely FALSE. He absolutely DID believe he was doing "God's Holy Works".

Proof? Look directly at his personal diaries. Something you clearly did not realize existed... !

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Stalin did all his murdering during a time when all religion was illegal in his nation, as well.

.

Not ALL religion-- just YOURS and a few other people's.

Eastern Orthodox? Did very well under Stalin.

Destroys your "argument(s)" completely.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

In fact, and you are quite free to look this up....there has never been an officially anti-theist (that's a form of atheism, in case you haven't figured that out...one cannot be anti-all theism unless one IS an atheist)...government that was not murderous to the nth degree.

Name... one. We'll wait.

What's that? You cannot, without bending the truth to the opposite of what it actually is?

Yeah.... we noticed that already.

 

[dianaiad]

Oh dear. Hitler wrote in his own personal diaries how he was doing the Christian God's Holy Works. Time and time again, he wrote that.

He put "god is with us" on his Special troups, the SS (only in German, obviously).

Hitler was not only a Theist? He fully believed he was a Christian too. So, apparently, did the Catholic Church of that day (this was before the atrocities came to light), and the Sitting Pope gave The Nazis his blessing. We have photographs of that ceremony.

History? Yeah-- you seem to have missed out...!



No again! You really need to pay attention: Stalin only ever outlawed CERTAIN GROUPS-- he kept Eastern Orthodox alive and well, and in fact Stalin was trained up to be a Priest in E.O.

Now to be sure, he was absolutely insane by any measure of that word. But there is no reason to think he repudiated all theism. Why would he allow Eastern Orthodox to thrive?


.... NOT. He believed in Ancestor Worship-- the opposite of atheist.

Sheesh, but you could not possibly be MORE INCORRECT.



Silly person. You are Wrong. Again.


You were wrong then, you are wrong here, and you continue to be wrong.

Sad.




LMAO! Nope. Sorry, bub, that is NOT how it works!

Atheism? IS NOT A PHILOSOPHY, IT IS NOT A STANCE, IT IS NOT A RELIGION, IT IS NOT A REGIMEN. IT IS JUST AN ANSWER TO ONE QUESTION.

You are thinking of something ELSE: ANTI-THEISM, which IS a thing.

I'm beginning to doubt that you have EVER-EVER spoken with an actual atheist in the real world...!

Absolutely FALSE. He absolutely DID believe he was doing "God's Holy Works".

Proof? Look directly at his personal diaries. Something you clearly did not realize existed... !

Will you stop.

You are projecting. you are accusing me of using the arguments YOU are using.

You are not reading what I am writing.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Will you stop.

You are projecting. you are accusing me of using the arguments YOU are using.

You are not reading what I am writing.

Oh, I'm reading what you wrote.

It's just that what you wrote isn't accurate.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Will ...

Still waiting for an example of some Dictator/Oligarch who did anything in the name of NOT believing in something. (atheism)

 

[Shad]

Stalin was during the time he made religion illegal.

Illegal until he saw it could help him. Stalin brought back the modern Russian Orthodox Church in WW2 for morale and patriotism purposes. Priests were blessing T-34s rolling off the production lines. The Church expanded under Stalin from 41 until his death.

 

[Shad]

Stalin did all his murdering during a time when all religion was illegal in his nation, as well.

No he didn't. The post WW2 gulags which held some of the Red Army that tasted Western prosperity thus saw the Soviet lies were shipped off when the Church was endorsed by Stalin.

 

[dianaiad]

Still waiting for an example of some Dictator/Oligarch who did anything in the name of NOT believing in something. (atheism)

Weasel wording.

The intent...no religion or religious observances allowed...IS THE SAME THING AS 'doing it in the name of atheism, since getting rid of all religion and religious observances is for the purpose of, er, getting rid of all religion and religious observances.

After all, in a restrictive theocracy where ONE belief system is allowed and all others disallowed, I'm quite certain you would call the actions of the leaders 'doing it in the name of god."

You wouldn't insist upon the use of the precise wording.

You are equivocating. Not all atheists are reasonable, logical and kind people.
Not all theists are ignoramuses who believe everything they do on the whim of a breath of air. If that.

My claim was, and remains, that belief in deity is a continuum; a spectrum, the ends of which are occupied by very similar people who have their opinions based upon...who knows?

They are the same, those 'folks on the ends,' because their reasons for their opinions are the same, even if those opinions differ. They cannot prove their beliefs. They only have adamant, obstinate, 'faith' in them and are willing to do whatever it takes to force others to agree with them.

Whether that opinion is 'there is a God and He agrees with everything I think," or "there is no god and anybody who believes in one is too stupid to live,' it's the same thing.

Exactly the same thing.

Only when you start moving in from the ends do you get reason.

.............and most people DO NOT LIVE ON THE ENDS.

But YOU are equivocating. You are insisting that disbelief in deity has all sorts of intrinsic and positive aspects, such as scientific objectivity, reasonable scepticism, open mind....

bushwah.

Atheism is simply a disbelief in deity.

Those who claim that there IS NO GOD are not the same as those who claim that they see no reason to believe in God.

There are atheists who honestly think that they have the right and purpose to eliminate theism from the world.

Ignostics don't think that the concept of God has any meaning SINCE nothing can be known one way or another about one, and the whole thing doesn't matter to us anyway.

AGNOSTICS may or may not believe that God can be knowable, but at least they think the idea is worth a thought or two.

Maybe.

Theists believe that at least one deity exists, and that runs from deism (one step up from agnosticism, in that the deist leans to 'yeah, there is one but we still don't know anything about him/her/it and god doesn't give a hoot anyway) to 'God exists, agrees with me, and everybody had better listen!

THIS is the only point I've been making. That's it. That's all.

Not all atheists are alike.
Not all theists are.

And there ARE evil atheists, just as there are evil theists.

And atheist government leaders have killed millions of people, and have done so to promote their own system....which operates partly under the idea that 'RELIGION IS BAD."

WHICH IS 'IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM."

Sorry, but you can twitch and moan about that until you are blue, but that's the way it is.

Doesn't make all atheists evil; most are not. Doesn't make all theists stupid. Most are not.

But your intransigent insistence that atheists, simply by virtue of BEING atheists, are calm, reasoning beings in search of the best verses of 'Imagine" is very.....

er.....

fundamentalist and, I may say, very close to fanaticism. Religious fanaticism.

 

[ChristineM]

No. it simply means that I disagree with the specific definition, slightly, since it's definite statement that 'agnostic' means that nobody can know anything about deity removes any possibility from the believing agnostic that there MIGHT be a God, but s/he hasn't seen any evidence for or against.

Those are slightly different ideas.

Oh, you go look up 'ignostic.' Believe me, I've had enough arguments with them to get that definition pounded into my head.

Simply disagreeing with someone is NOT insulting. Saying 'you are incorrect and this is why I think so" is not an insult.

Saying that you aren't worth talking to because you depend on 'lesser evidence' is. I disagreed with a dictionary definition and gave you my reasons. That was not an insult either to you or to the dictionary. Your dismissing me without even addressing the matter is.

You disagreement is understandable but irrelevant, the fact you disagree with the accepted definition and insert your own personal opninon and imply it supersedes that accepted definition is an insult. Meanwhile, the rest of the world will adhere the accepted definition and you will continue to stomp your foot because people don't understand what you are talking about.

I have addressed the matter by providing the accepted definition of agnostic. You disagree with that definition, that is hardly my problem.

And the fact that no evidence exists for any gods existence. You claim your evidence is different it therefore falls on you to show such evidence.

 

[ChristineM]

I don't remember mentioning Hitler in my body count. In fact, Hitler used "Christianity" whenever it suited him. However, I'll use the argument I found here with him, as well. Hitler did not kill anybody in the name of God.

I just don't include his death count in the one I mentioned. Pol Pot never declared his atheism, but he made all theism...even the sort he was supposed to be associated with...illegal.

Stalin did all his murdering during a time when all religion was illegal in his nation, as well.

In fact, and you are quite free to look this up....there has never been an officially anti-theist (that's a form of atheism, in case you haven't figured that out...one cannot be anti-all theism unless one IS an atheist)...government that was not murderous to the nth degree.

Not. Even. One.

But I wasn't claiming that all atheists are anti-theists. They aren't.

I AM objecting to this claim that since 'atheists' are mostly not anti-theist, that none of them are.

I AM objecting to this assinine idea that because extreme theists and extreme atheists are alike in that neither group pay a whole lot of attention to actual logic and thought, that there isn't a huge middle ground on both sides that do.

you are claiming that I am attacking all atheists....when in reality, is is you folks who are claiming that all atheists are logical and all theists are not.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. " Mein Kamph page 65.

You know little about Cambodian religion and nationalist governments

Yes, and why was religion illegal under stalin? Because it caused gatherings of people which were illegal. Stalin was the one who re started the church after consolidating power, he donated millions of rubles to the church,when he died he had not 1, not 2 but 3 Georgian orthodox church leaders officiate at his funeral... The actions and wishes of an atheist? I think not.

Your ad homonym, sarcasm and insult to my intelligence has not gone un noticed and will be remembered. From this point your insulting comment dictates my response.

800,000,000. Let that number sink in, eight hundred million, that is a low estimate of murders carried out by religion where one or both sides were fighting to impose their religious beliefs on others since the start of recorded history. When you can find a genuine atheist government that can even compete on scale please feel free to let me know.

I am claiming that your original post i replied to implied all atheists and although you have not admitted this, you obviously feel have a valid point because every post you made on the subject is far more specific.

 

[Woberts]

Stalin was during the time he made religion illegal.

He never made it illegal. He put restrictions upon it yes, but that was mainly do to religious anti-Sovietism. He loosened the restrictions in the 30's.
He did outlaw the teaching of religions in schools. If you think that's banning all religion, you've got a massive case of the victim complex that seems to be the norm for Christians nowadays.