If God Controls Everything...

[Cap'n MacDougal]

more so...it demonstrates your predictability.

Now if you were to suddenly change your mind and swallow something else.....

oh!, but now you will offer a hall of mirrors question.....won't you?

Hahahaaaa. I know! I love my Tuesday morning oatmeal!

God does not know things in that way. He is the most well-informed, but the ability to surprise him and each other was actually the point of creating creators.
Being the most well-informed, etc., few -if any -choices can surprise him by way of leaving him unprepared, but what you will choose to eat for breakfast is likely not written somewhere. He probably knows it will be something available to you, though -and if it is important to the overall plan, he'll make sure you eat the oatmeal.

Some humans are actually quite able to tell you what you will be having for breakfast on a certain day.
They are the sort that attempt to minimize surprises.
If you study their ways, you will find that they attempt to use a mix of information and manipulation to nullify the will of those who oppose them.
They attempt to be God-like, but as they are not God or like God in the most important ways (truly unified, all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolent, sane, etc.), they run into all sorts of difficulties.

Anyway -God is moving all things to a point where he won't have to wonder if we are considering evil or doing evil -and neither will we.

Thanks for the response, Etritonakin. I'm not certain either that my breakfast choices are written somewhere. I'm curiously enjoying the dynamic between God's omniscience and associated foreknowledge and any experience of choice which we possess.
Is God's knowledge contingent upon our choices?

 

[Cap'n MacDougal]

Since time, as we know it, was created with the rest of the universe, then it stands to reason that God would transcend time along with everything else he created- the director knows how the movie ends-

So to that question, if you have oatmeal at 6 am next Tuesday, it is because you freely chose to do so, and nothing can change that!

Hello, Guy.

I'm not questioning God's transcendence of time. Although I do enjoy the Divine Metaphysical Puzzle of what mechanism God employs in the absence of time to engineer a T=0 time dependant event of creation.
If God knows, today, that I will eat oatmeal for breakfast at 6:00 am next Tuesday, do I possess the power to do otherwise? Which would invalidate God's foreknowledge, hypothetically, at least.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Some believe that God controls everything, and that everything happens according to His will. They will go as far as to refuse medical treatment, blood transfusions, etc. Their attitude is that if it is God's will, then they will be saved, cured, not robbed, not in a car crash, etc. So here is a question...

According to Revelation 20:11-15, the dead are raised from their graves and judged according to their deeds [actions]. But if God controls everything, why is a judgment necessary since He would be judging what He caused in the first place? Are humans really nothing more than automatons...mere robots?

Something to think about.

I think there are probably people who say this and it would indeed be a problem. We are reflections of something higher and we follow intuitive knowledge. In that sense it is all God, as that is what we are and are part of. Freewill is something we hardly connect with as we always follow what has gone, stimulants etc

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Hello, Guy.

I'm not questioning God's transcendence of time. Although I do enjoy the Divine Metaphysical Puzzle of what mechanism God employs in the absence of time to engineer a T=0 time dependant event of creation.
If God knows, today, that I will eat oatmeal for breakfast at 6:00 am next Tuesday, do I possess the power to do otherwise? Which would invalidate God's foreknowledge, hypothetically, at least.

Yes it is an interesting puzzle, which applies equally to any hypothetical spontaneous creation of the universe just as well- yet here we are!
So it's a wash, and a moot point, since there is obviously a solution one way or another..
What's not even though is the capacity of creative intelligence v chance, to create all we see around us

But we agree that the creator- intelligent or spontaneous- transcends time right?, so that conflict of free will and destiny comes only from your point of view, from the creator's, it is entirely your choice, just one that he already knows you will make.

e.g. re-watch your favorite football game on dvr.. does your intimate knowledge of every play, mean that the players never had the free will to chose them?

 

[Cap'n MacDougal]

What's up man. I don't subscribe to the Creator Diety P.O.V., so, I only agree God transcends time for the sake of discussion.

Interesting analogy re: dvr. I don't suppose, from my capacity as a finite l'il fella, that my foreknowledge of the players "choices" in a game has any determinant effect on the game. I do wonder how, if an Omnimax time-transcendant being exists, how its foreknowledge and probable outcomes are effected.

Returning to my breakfast example, if God knew in the year 1653 that I would eat oatmeal next Tuesday at 6:00 am, do I possess the power to eat at 6:15, or another food option, the result of which would nullify God's foreknowledge, and by proxy, omniscience?

As I said in my first post, it's just a bit of fun with words, I don't take (or present) this as an argument against the existence of free will.

 

[Thief]

just a pointer here.....

Let's say God CAN see each moment and do so as if one photo after another.....

His exist would be as stagnant as a stack of photos.
No movement on His part.

I say He created the universe in linear motion.....and is going along for the ride.
He doesn't know what you will do next.

He is in the present ....with us.

 

[Cap'n MacDougal]

just a pointer here.....

Let's say God CAN see each moment and do so as if one photo after another.....

His exist would be as stagnant as a stack of photos.
No movement on His part.

I say He created the universe in linear motion.....and is going along for the ride.
He doesn't know what you will do next.

He is in the present ....with us.

Good morning, Thief!

That God concepts are configurable is one of their more entertaining (and most likely utilitarian) properties. I would have no idea how a time-transcendent God would perceive time.

While we perceive time as linear, we do know that it is relative to gravity, velocity, etc. I can only assume that God, as popularly described, does not share these perceptions.

 

[Thief]

Good morning, Thief!

That God concepts are configurable is one of their more entertaining (and most likely utilitarian) properties. I would have no idea how a time-transcendent God would perceive time.

While we perceive time as linear, we do know that it is relative to gravity, velocity, etc. I can only assume that God, as popularly described, does not share these perceptions.

I think perception is the actual focus.

Having realize Himself.....He would also realize.....there is no one else.
He was (is) First in mind and spirit.

Talking to yourself might be entertaining for a while.
and being in more than one place could be easy.....

but the universe can only respond to your 'touch'.....it does not really 'respond'

substance is the only other item to work with...so....
Spirit into substance....Man.
and a unique perspective on each occasion!

 

[Cap'n MacDougal]

I think perception is the actual focus.

Having realize Himself.....He would also realize.....there is no one else.
He was (is) First in mind and spirit.

Talking to yourself might be entertaining for a while.
and being in more than one place could be easy.....

but the universe can only respond to your 'touch'.....it does not really 'respond'

substance is the only other item to work with...so....
Spirit into substance....Man.
and a unique perspective on each occasion!

Would you please clarify this a bit? I apologize for not getting it the first time around, but you may be utilizing some terminologies in a belief specific manner, I'm just a little lost. Whose perception is the actual focus? Are you stating that God was lonely, therefore man was created?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Thief]

Would you please clarify this a bit? I apologize for not getting it the first time around, but you may be utilizing some terminologies in a belief specific manner, I'm just a little lost. Whose perception is the actual focus? Are you stating that God was lonely, therefore man was created?

Thanks in advance.

Yes.

Science lays the universe as substance expanding for eons...
That's a long time to talk to Yourself.

I believe the formation of the Word ..the one word....the universe....
is all simultaneous.....but not synonymous.

Genesis is a difficult read without attempting to see it from that perspective.
the everyday quote....a day in the life of the Lord is like unto a thousand years....
doesn't really contain the event.
Science expands the notion of time rather large!

In the same breath, I should mention....I don't believe in time.
It is not a force or substance.
It is only a means of measurement concerning movement.
a cognitive device created by Man to serve Man.

Then of course, I don't apply time to the existence of God.
and the bible would say.....'was, is, and shall always be'.....
so time does not apply.

Still, it remains....this creation moves in a motion that has a rule.
You can't go back.

does that rule apply to God?.....looks like a fresh op!

 

[arthra]

Some believe that God controls everything, and that everything happens according to His will. They will go as far as to refuse medical treatment, blood transfusions, etc. Their attitude is that if it is God's will, then they will be saved, cured, not robbed, not in a car crash, etc. So here is a question...
According to Revelation 20:11-15, the dead are raised from their graves and judged according to their deeds [actions]. But if God controls everything, why is a judgment necessary since He would be judging what He caused in the first place? Are humans really nothing more than automatons...mere robots?

In my belief.. being "raised from the dead" doesn't mean bodies start rising out of their graves in a graveyard.. this means rather that we can be spiritually reborn..

"Lift Thou to these parched lips the bounteous and soft-flowing waters of heaven, raise up these dead to everlasting life. Grant Thou to the blind eyes that will see. Make Thou the deaf to hear, the dumb to speak. Set Thou the dispirited ablaze, make Thou the heedless mindful, warn Thou the proud, awaken those who sleep."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 7

People who "....go as far as to refuse medical treatment, blood transfusions..." are denying themselves the opportunity to be healed:

"...thou shouldst accept the physical remedies as coming from the mercy and favor of God, who hath revealed and made manifest medical science so that His servants may profit from this kind of treatment.."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 375

 

[Neo Deist]

In my belief.. being "raised from the dead" doesn't mean bodies start rising out of their graves in a graveyard.. this means rather that we can be spiritually reborn..

"Lift Thou to these parched lips the bounteous and soft-flowing waters of heaven, raise up these dead to everlasting life. Grant Thou to the blind eyes that will see. Make Thou the deaf to hear, the dumb to speak. Set Thou the dispirited ablaze, make Thou the heedless mindful, warn Thou the proud, awaken those who sleep."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 7

People who "....go as far as to refuse medical treatment, blood transfusions..." are denying themselves the opportunity to be healed:

"...thou shouldst accept the physical remedies as coming from the mercy and favor of God, who hath revealed and made manifest medical science so that His servants may profit from this kind of treatment.."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 375

TBH, I don't know of anyone that actually believes that bodies will rise up from the grave, especially after they have decomposed.

Most rational people would understand that it refers to a spiritual resurrection. In the mean time, we die and go to the grave and await that resurrection.

 

[Zen Sensei]

Could you cite one or two religions or dominations that reject free will?

Try reading the works of St. Augustine and John Calvin. Shalom.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Could you cite one or two religions or dominations that reject free will?

Try reading the works of St. Augustine and John Calvin. Shalom.

Try being less pedantic and presumptuous.

Parenthetically, this is a rather nice commentary while St. Augustine clearly believed in free will.​

 

[Christ's Prophet]

Some believe that God controls everything, and that everything happens according to His will. They will go as far as to refuse medical treatment, blood transfusions, etc. Their attitude is that if it is God's will, then they will be saved, cured, not robbed, not in a car crash, etc. So here is a question...

According to Revelation 20:11-15, the dead are raised from their graves and judged according to their deeds [actions]. But if God controls everything, why is a judgment necessary since He would be judging what He caused in the first place? Are humans really nothing more than automatons...mere robots?

Something to think about.

Dear Deist Mentor

1. There are only two ways things happen on earth. That is a) God makes it happen, and there are plenty of examples in the Bible, or b) God allows things to happen. God looks down on the affairs of men and I am sure that He is very disappointed with our selfish actions and our rejection of Him. When we think about that, we can only wonder at His love and patience with a rebellious world.
   
   
2. God has given us free will. We are made in the image of God, as free will, decision making, and moral beings. So with the aid of God’s perfect Holy Spirit, we are aided to see our clear need of Him as Saviour.
   
   
3. When it comes to the end of days, we will be rewarded according to what we have done in the flesh. In the whole of the Bible, God gives us the freedom to decide for or against God, but we don’t have the freedom from the consequences of those decisions.
   
   Christ’s prophet. Certainty for eternity
   

 

[Neo Deist]

Dear Deist Mentor

1. There are only two ways things happen on earth. That is a) God makes it happen, and there are plenty of examples in the Bible, or b) God allows things to happen.

So by your own admittance, the concept of Satan as the devil that goes around tempting people to commit sin, is nothing more than God making or allowing it to happen.

 

[Christ's Prophet]

Predestination isn't the same thing as free-will. Under predestination you are still free to do as you will, however, God already knows who is going to Heaven and Hell. In life you can do as you want, but you do not get a choice as to if you go to Heaven or not (compared to a denomination like Baptist, which places the condition of accepting Christ and asking forgiveness to gain salvation).

Dear Shadow Wolf,

In the Westminster confession, it says basically that God has predestinated certain people, before the foundation of the world, to be appointed unto salvation, and has foreordained all others unto damnation.

This goes beyond God merely knowing who is going to be saved, and who is going to be lost, the predestination Christians allege that God is actively involved in creating people/foreordaining people to go to Hell and others to Heaven and that we don’t really have any say in that decision. There are several hermetical difficulties.

1. It seems to me that right throughout the Old Testament, God has actively sought to gain the co-operation of His creations, calling upon them to freely decide for Him. Those who proved rebellious, brought God’s judgment. Example Exodus 32:1, 19, 20. And similarly, those who were obedient, brought God’s blessing. See Genesis 12 with Abraham. But when we come to the New Testament, it seems that the predestination Christians have changed their minds, or rather God has changed His mind about how people are saved. We no longer have this freedom in our salvation??? Personally I don’t think God’s character has changed at all. He is the same yesterday today and forever.
   
   
2. Another difficulty has been the lack of need for evangelism. After all, what would be the point if God has already decided who is going to be lost and who is to be saved? Why bother? Why would He deliberately create people to go to Hell? Why doesn’t He just create people to go to Heaven and be done with it? Even the great preacher Dr Martin Lloyd Jones admitted there are difficulties with this doctrine. In his commentary on Romans in the tenth chapter, he admitted that the Scriptures plainly say that man is responsible for his actions, but in the very same passage, he admits that the Apostle Paul says that God is entirely responsible for man’s salvation. So we see a contradiction. But any serious Bible student knows that God cannot contradict Himself because that aspect belongs to God. Plenty to think about. Christ’s prophet. Certainty for eternity.
   

 

[Neo Deist]

...the predestination Christians allege that God is actively involved in creating people/foreordaining people to go to Hell and others to Heaven...

There will always be people that don't read the Bible, and rely on traditional teachings instead of biblical. Those same people have a tendency to view hell more from a Dante's Inferno or Paradise Lost perspective, rather than from the understanding that hell, which is taken from the Hebrew sheol and Greek hades, simply means "the grave." The idea that the damned will go to hell and burn for an eternity, is nothing more than a scare tactic used by the Church to maintain power and influence over people.

 

[JoStories]

If god controls everything I guess, he must have missed and forgotten Africa. Tell me a reason for AIDS,what's the lesson we should get from this disease?

IMO, there are inherent lessons from all of histories' horrid atrocities and said diseases. 1000 or so years ago, it was one or another disease that claimed the lives of a 1/4 od the world's population. That taught us about sanitation I believe. There was also the Holocaust, teaching us the detriments of prejudice and bias, and the Crusades, and so on. AIDS may be to teach us about disease again, in the form of blood borne disease because it seems that Hep A, B, C etc, seems to not have been enough. That's how I see this.

 

[JoStories]

My congregation? Do you mean do I agree with the Catholic Church on that? Yeah.

Basically, my view is that God wills certain things but since He has given His creations free will, they can choose to go their own way. God is omnipotent, but that omnipotence is mostly in potential since He's not micromanaging every detail of existence. He abrogates a certain amount of power to His creations, so as to not make us robots or puppets.

I'm sorry but that seems to me to indicate a position that justifies your faith. Either God is omnipotent or God is not. Either God knows who will do what or God doesn't, and if God does know, that means God would then be culpable in that God would not have striven to help that individual see how wrong their choice might have been. Say one is a murderer. That would mean God allowed that person to murder. What is the point of that? Or a person chooses, such as me, to follow a Buddhist path. And for that, I get to go to hell? And God would know that? Sounds very monstrous to me.